But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

sometimes it can work popalot and if it does it seems to be a healing thing that people get a lot out of. If it goes wrong though, it can hurt more. But in a way at least you know, I suppose.

But I think that you need to wait a while, from what you write. Firstly, let her hormones really settle. Secondly ...
I guess it would be so I could say 'see, that's why I'm like this - not because I am depressive/over-sensitive'.

It sounds to me you're trying to justify the way you are, and that you feel the way you are is not good enough. Actually I think you need to consider having this conversation when you feel stronger in your own place to stand (unless I misread it and you're angry in which case make sure it's controlled anger then go right ahead!).

It's a bit of anger, but mostly you are right Meerka - I have a very low self sense of worth.

When I was younger I sensed it was wrong and was angry, but was convinced by all and sundry that I was oversensitive and was basically a laughing stock. So I could never trust how I felt as I was told I was being dramatic or easy to tears. I became convinced it was me and that something was inherently wrong.

As I got older I found myself in bad relationships. I thought maybe I was bi-polar or depressive. I am a very good coper so most people in my life would have no idea and think I'm calm and relaxed, always smiling. But basically I am hyper alert and feeling constantly judged. People close to me would see the all night tears and again tell me something was wrong with me.

It is only very recently (after becoming a mother myself) that I've realised what I knew all along - it was wrong to treat me that way and perhaps I'm not so bad after all. I'm only at the start of this process of discovery, so I'm probably not in the right place at all to discuss it all with my family. I don't know if I ever will now!

It's hard because I don't think my siblings would back me up as one was (is) favourite and the other had a bad time but blamed me for it all my life (from babyhood until she left home I was bullied by her). So the dynamic is all confused I think they find it easier to see me as an emotional flake.

What really gets my goat is that I am considered intelligent etc but never having made something of myself like my siblings, and I feel quite angry because I know this is because of my low self esteem. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy!

toxic childhood, the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.

I dont know, popalot. it might be worth it - if you feel her apology after you stood up to her was genuine and would not be twisted / used later. If it realy was genuine, then there might be something good come out of it.

Congratulations on tinyPoplet(te) :) doesn't having a baby really shake things up a lot! though even more now, if you decide to speak to her i do think it's an idea to wait til your hormones have settled as well as hers. And prepare for all outcomes.

Cuddling and sniffing yoru baby is so lovely ... our little one 11mo has jsut today figured out how to climb stairs. when he starts walking on his own, then we're in for it! :)

Stacyandtracy. Yeah it is apparently a crime of first order to NC parents, and it is my responsibility to fix. Nope. Interestingly, having found info on Grandparents I have a fuller understanding of Parents now, and accept? them. They are still the same though, nothing there for me, NC stands.
It is amazing/cathartic to read all these and realise I am not evil spawn of Satan for how I handle the folks. Thank you.

Popalot I feel so similar to you in a few ways!

Firstly, my journey into motherhood made me realise that the way I have been treated is really not ok and that I wasn't attention seeking / being a drama queen / lying / being over-sensitive / difficult... In reality, people in a position of responsibility for my health, wellbeing and general welfare were treating me badly because it suited them to neglect my needs and they were manipulating me for their own benefit. I would NEVER do or speak to my child in the way I have been treated - just the thought of it makes me feel physically sick.

I also have never really made anything of myself either - no-one was ever really interested in my ambitions, or just outright made fun of them, so I just plodded along in a job I hated for ages thinking that I was not worth any more. Professionally I have allowed myself to be bullied (I am conditioned to accept this kind of behaviour and believe that it is my fault anyway) and therefore have missed a lot of opportunities and allowed people to take the credit for my ideas or alternatively, blame me when things have gone wrong.

Now that we know these things, we can hopefully use them to work from a position of strength in the future and turn a corner... There are so many of us standing here with you!

inhope posting here is a good start. Have you had any counselling at all?

Sorry, you did say that. You didn't have it easy; that much is very clear. I wouldnt bother trying to discuss it with your family as you are unlikely to get reasonable responses from unreasonable people sadly.

Therapy has helped me immensely but it's taken a lot of time and hard work. What kind of counselling did you have before?

Staffiegirl me too! Like you, I would much rather have a big heart and be kind to people than be cold, heartless and manipulative like some other members of my family...

Inhope Lots of people who abuse their children are victims themselves - you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling that your DM is toxic just because she was also on the receiving end of abuse. You don't need to justify or apologise for your feelings.

Inhope My mum had a really, really awful childhood. Abusive in almost every way (physical, emotional etc) and from almost every person in it. She went on to have a very difficult life and a few abusive relationships and everything that comes with this. This sort of nailed me down for at least my first twenty years as I felt I could never feel she was difficult, never mind toxic, as 1. my experience was nowhere near as bad as hers, and 2. she's already had such an awful time that I feel responsible for her happiness, and think she's doing her best. But realistically her 'best' wasn't enough and her 'best' should have included some therapy or getting social services involved etc. Still every day I feel guilty for feeling as strongly as I do.
Most of my childhood was my mum projecting her own issues onto us and the other part was her not protecting us from our abusive parent. From knowing about her childhood I understand why she's like this and that makes me want to excuse it, but really, just because I understand it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, if that makes sense, and if those two aren't mutually exclusive, then I can't act as though the other two are. It's difficult to articulate.
For me personally there's no falling-into-place moment where it all becomes clearer and easier and the fact that she's a victim and toxic just stop colliding. It will always be that way and I'm sure I'll always feel sympathetic and responsible and a bit guilty. But I just have to know that, but continue to act in reaction to her being toxic so that I'm okay. It's very difficult and it's a lot to feel all at once and I think that's one thing that people who haven't had abusive childhoods don't necessarily understand - that you feel is all even when the feelings shouldn't naturally co-exist. And you often feel it all at once.
I also know that my family see me as self-centered and selfish for feeling how I do, and that they don't believe me about how bad things were or think I'm being dramatic. What's helping me a bit is to try to stop focussing on getting them to believe me or understand and instead focus on the fact that I have parents who feel that way. It's just another point for me to add to my problems with them and another thing to come to terms with.
Of course the 'golden child' doesn't necessarily have it easy. In a way from an outsider's POV I was the 'golden child' because I argued with my mum much less than my siblings, the eldest, I was my mum's mini-me etc and always there for her. But actually I learned to be exactly what I was meant to be, shut up, said the right things, and took all the extra responsibility. It was really hard. Please don't undermine your experience based on other people's experiences.
Sorry for the long post, I just identified with a lot of things you said and wanted to share my experiences. Sorry you've been through it all and you're in the right place

Gosh loveheart I just had to check that I hadn't posted and changed my name to yours.Your experience almost exactly mirrors mine, right down to my family regarding me as self centred but also perceiving me to be the golden child as I am the eldest.Ihave spent my entire life in the knowledge that my best is never good enough, I have actually been pretty much nc for the last decade after I realised that I could have a family and my sanity or I could have a relationship with my mother , however she has recently been widowed and we are back in contact but she still makes constant snide remarks about how nothing I have experienced could ever be as bad as her childhood , also how 'people ' misinterpret things etc .

staffie it might be worth looking at goodtobetter's threads from the beginning. She was called badtoworst or badtoworse then. It's been a long journey for her, too. she moved from being really very lost in the Fear, Obligation and Guilt to seeing her mother from an entirely different perspective. it took some years.

I had some extremely intensive, not to say startlingly brutal, therapy for a time and then years of more normal therapy from highly skilled people ... you learn, though even now, well, errors in my self-awareness creep in

loveheart it's so so sad how awful some people's lives are and then how that slowly poisons them until they become toxic themselves :( when you think how that little girl or boy that they were becomes the awful person they are later on ... I find it very sad. It's even sadder that all you can do for your own self protection is walk away ... there is no point being pulled down as well.

I could not go and stay with my highly toxic biol. mother as she would have pulled me down and destroyed me within about 5 months, but I had to leave two small girls there :/ I wish I could have done more. My mother was once a very intelligent, bright and kind person. What she became ... all you can do is hope that somewhere after death there is some chance to begin again. ok probably an illusion but it's horrible to think that all the good sides were lost permanently.

sorry to hop over a lot of posts here, I just popped by and the first post i skim read really struck a chord with me from Redmapleleaves

because i recall feeling this way, and the embarrassment at NC came, i believe for me, from a child-like feeling when you feel this is what you deserve so people will view you in that light. I just wanted to say that feeling didn't last, once those people became very separate from me if that makes sense.

and i use the expression, 'we've never been a close family' and we're all split up now. It a fact that some families cannot survive without living in each other's pockets minute by minute and others barely have contact through being so absorbed with their own lives and never having started out being particularly close or sociable as people, another good one is not having family 'close-by', so that geography can be blamed for the estrangement.

I've also used 'i've never had anything really in common with them, grew up that i was adopted and never told!' completely different people to me, hatches, matches and dispatches is about it. All I think are quite simplistic and unladen with emotional baggage, just stated as a fact without tears and drama.

and Popalot i think it would be risky to speak to your DM laying your hurts on the table and would very much need to be framed by your expectation of closure or apologies or validation. If its validation you need from her, you can only look to yourself as she could destroy your validation in one foul swoop of denial and blame. I was terribly drunk one night (very young!) and all this bubbled to the surface and i was bloody stonking angry with both my parents and decided it was the time to confront them and 'have it out'. It didn't go well. She blamed me being out of control, needing to get a grip, i was being cruel and aggressive (i was extremely agitated and struggling to hold back the tears but yes, demanding some answers), that because i was drunk quite clearly i had not a clue what i was talking about, she was very supercilious and dismissive of everything. What was telling was that she didn't follow up any suggestion of doing this when i wasn't drunk, and repeated that i was difficult and 'sensitive'.

I know that i did the whole thing very wrong, but if any of my DC were to confront me in this way, i would be upset firstly i think for their distress, and want to work out a way to listen to this, certainly not dismiss and certainly be the adult [i would hope] to say how important it would be to do when we could be on equal terms (emotionally and in good space), and how about just immediately saying sorry! there's probably loads i've done wrong over the years and wish i could've done better?

Have a look at the thread opener above which details the kinds of reactions to expect, it could be a helpful preparation for the way it may go and to prepare yourself for that if you still want to do it. I am imagining the things written up there are the stock answers/denials that everyone on here has received in those circumstances.

Thoughts and warm wishes to all

staffie I also excused my mother for years, feeling any failings or "ishoos" she had were because of her own difficult childhood and then marriage to my dad (alcoholic). I had a long-running thread on here as badtoworse called "my mother hates my husband". It was only with that thread that things started to fall into place. Then loads of reading about dysfunctional families via links on here and Toxic Parents by Susan Forward and then, ultimately 13 sessions with a psychotherapist who had also treated my brother and so had a good handle on our family dynamic.
It has taken me about 3 years to get to where I am now and I still have moments when bits of the FOG take over, mostly little bits of guilt from time to time.

outtolunch so nice to hear that someone's had such similar experiences to me and on this thread too (so I know I'm not over reacting ), really validating. I'm sorry you had a hard time too. Most of my friends come from classic nuclear middle class families and although obviously not perfect they really don't come close to understanding the extent of emotional manipulation so it's nice to come on here and hear from similar people. My mother doesn't do snide remarks (unless pushed), it's more serious martyrdom, long explanations about therapy sessions (about how the therapist is so worried and horrified but don't worry she's been through enough that it doesn't bother her...) and 'anecdotes' about horrific events in her life just to put you back in your place. She acknowledges how hard things have been during my life as how hard it was on her that it was hard on me and how she put me first and didn't let it affect me at the expense of her own happiness... 'so there, dare to disagree' basically. Most of this is done conversationally so it's very subtle.

I don't know what to do to be honest. I don't want to be at the point of long term NC like I am with my dad as I love my mum and care about her so much despite everything. Only a few pages ago I was on here saying that on a superficial level she's one of my closest friends and I just need to get to a point where I can walk away from spending time with her still feeling solid and resilient. But we're currently NC of her choosing (but my making, as in, I drove her to choose - talk to me honestly or I'll wait) over a very very small disagreement and I have to be honest with myself and say that she is a person who will cut a child out of her life however temporarily because they said something she disagreed with and she will continue her life pretty happily (I still see her on social media/am in contact with siblings who live with her). I didn't and don't (at the moment) want long term NC. All I wanted was a conversation. I feel like if this is the long term NC we've skipped about ten steps as it was SO sudden and I also feel like I want to know then, if this is 'it', so that I can stop dreading/anticipating her getting in touch. I can't believe I lost my mum just in one email, an hour before we'd been in Sainsburys together no hostility at all, and I didn't even get to say all the things I'd never say because it would ruin our relationship regardless, now that I know that she can walk away so easily our relationship will never go back to how it was and up until a month ago I was still of the opinion that I'd rather have the relationship with her where I say the right things and go along with it than no relationship at all. Feels very uncomfortable that that was all taken out of my hands.
Sorry for the rambling. Just confused and really don't know where to go from here if/when she does get in touch (inevitably saying 'I'm too good a mother to allow us to not talk')

loveheart I think you put your finger on it ... "now that I know that she can walk away so easily our relationship will never go back to how it was"

You are right here. It's not something you can un-know, even if you bury it.

In the light of this, can you maybe step back emotionally and detach a bit? I think that she has already pushed you away a bit by initiating this period of NC. I think you need to acknowledge that the best-friend closeness is over because you know the closeness is so very conditional. You can still laugh and enjoy her company and be close, but it would be easier if you can do so while kind of stepped-back at the deep level.

But you'd need to grieve the loss of that trust and deeper closeness first that you though you had. It must have been an illusion as she's been so willing to go NC; but for you it was real. It is a loss.

She probably does love you very much in her own way but maybe is unable to extend unconditional love now you have your own mind and perceptions. . Damaging childhoods are so destructive ...

Lots of people who abuse their children are victims themselves - you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling that your DM is toxic just because she was also on the receiving end of abuse.

Indeed. And personally I feel this makes what they did worse, not better. My dad KNEW what it was like to be miserable and scared, so the fact he experienced abuse himself isn't somehow a reason or an excuse or in any way mitigating because he knew what it felt like.

Staffie, re this: Every time I catch up with this thread, I'm in awe of how clued up people are with their own emotions, their role within the dysfunctional family, the abuser roles, family dynamic and the focus you all have about where you want to be. You all seem so much further along than me.

It takes time and hard work, and it's okay that you aren't there yet.

On the subject of going NC, and how it can be easier than you expect it to be. I have left the door open to my mother: she has been informed that she can see me in the presence of a family therapist. She has not taken me up on this, and to be honest I'm devastated because I thought she would. I figured it was too difficult for her, but then the other day a friend said: wow, that's a really generous offer. And I thought: maybe it is, maybe it isn't, maybe she's scared, who knows.

i think the same Peppermint - my DM has an horrific story of rejection and lonely and sad upbringing, full of fear and self-recrimination, BUT, she should never have had all of us! Having said that, there was no acknowledgement or it or support for anyone in her circumstances and she was alone with an abusive man (my DF), then became his enabler, and him her too.

They were both fairly honest at times about the horrible lives they'd had, but that just made it harder to blame them rather than myself for the abuse i experienced at their hands. Their story is not relevant in any way to mine is the point. As an adult now I can see what horrible childhoods they had, but its no way an excuse for creating further horrible childhoods.

We all gain our legacies from our parents and to a degree have awareness of the fullness of that,but should absolutely do something about it instead of spreading the guilt, lies and shame onto another generation. There is so much available to us now that wasn't even a generation ago.

Being abused isn't an automatic conversion kit to becoming an abuser, there is a lot of nature and further circumstance in the way and even then its no excuse.

Thanks Meerka, that's helpful to hear and given me some things to think about. I think it was a shock as I had already emotionally detached to an extent and did know quite clearly that the closeness was conditional, I just didn't know she could walk away and that's what hurts IYSWIM. It makes me feel like everything she was sapping out of me was redundant and for that I feel a bit cheated. I now know that things won't go back to how they were, if I'm honest the current NC is a relief and while I am grieving, I had already been grieving on and off with every incident over the last x years. I'm more worried that I'm happy and settled on a day-to-day basis, but I know I don't necessarily want to be permanently NC so how do I go backwards? I just have to take it as it comes but not knowing what I want our relationship to look like makes me feel a bit unprepared and weak as she can often knock me off-balance when we talk.

Smother I totally agree with your post and it'll be something I remind myself when I'm feeling crap I worry about recreating my childhood with my own DCs, there was a big emphasis in my childhood that I was the second generation and my parents had had awful lives but they were strong and moving on and not letting it affect us ( ). It was yet another projection, my mother reacted to her own childhood all the way through mine and in being preoccupied with that, ignored what was actually happening in mine. The irony is that because she always said the right thing, when I feel like I'm going to do well, I then 'realise' (I know it's not really true) I'm doomed to recreate it under the same illusions. I suppose it's just awareness.
I read somewhere that children adopt the characteristics that would have saved their parents. Obviously it's a generalisation and not always the case and not always a good thing but it's something that makes me feel better and keeps me motivated to reflect and more importantly move forward which is something my mother could never do.

Peppermint to see her with a family therapist is a generous offer. If DP and I were to break up and he offered to talk things over in couples counselling I'd be grateful that he was committed enough to want a third party there to prevent us going round in circles, that he was open and confident enough to risk being told he was wrong, that he would spend time and energy and money being constructive. I would also feel safer and braver and more optimistic going under these circumstances. However, if I was to suggest this to either of my parents (and it was suggested to my dad when I was a teenager but he never showed up) they would see it as a threat. They're incapable of reflecting properly and they find being in a position where they need to terrifying. My dad can't even acknowledge the past and if he can it's as a tool for gaslighting, my mother can go over and over the past in her head but can't bring herself to come out of her own point of view to see how it affects anybody else. By leaving the door open to family therapy you've done a kind and healthy thing. Unfortunately if your mum won't react properly then she's not the kind of person to see things this way, but you won't have the kind of relationship you want with her until (if ever) she is. She's probably scared but too out of touch with herself to even know she is.

Peppermint,

re this part of your comment:-

"I have left the door open to my mother: she has been informed that she can see me in the presence of a family therapist. She has not taken me up on this, and to be honest I'm devastated because I thought she would. I figured it was too difficult for her, but then the other day a friend said: wow, that's a really generous offer"

Your friend does not really get it, your mother saw seeing you in the presence of a family therapist as a threat to her very core. Family therapy anyhow with such disordered of thinking people is a complete and utter minefield so it rarely if ever works out at all well.

I am not altogether surprised that she has not taken you up on such an offer. This is also because she is not interested in wanting to fix your relationship because she does not think she has done anything wrong in the first place. Toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. They can also tie therapists up in knots. She is also afraid that the family therapist will see right through her exposing her for the person she really is.