But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Loveheart0,

FWIW I do not think you will recreate your own childhood with your children now because you know fundamentally that your treatment of you was and remains wrong. Your parents completely and utterly failed you and continue to do so.

I think you need to grieve primarily now for the relationship you should have had with your mother but through no fault of your own did not.

I know I don't necessarily want to be permanently NC so how do I go backwards

You can't go backwards .. was that a bit of a Freudian slip? :) I don't believe that you will, either. But maybe after 6 -8 months you could ring her?

what's coming out of this is how unpredictable she is. She might contact you after a month because 'she's too good a mother not to' ... or she might go NC forever unless you approach her. sounds fragile.

Peppermint I think it was a generous and very brave offer of yours to see her at a therapist's too!

Hello.

I was directed to the thread by Atilla (thank you).

I'm not sure if my mother is narcissist; however, she most probably does have some kind of controlling/personality disorder traits.

I am the family scapegoat, ever since I was an older child. An age where you question etc, a time where I was becoming more independent.

The thing that I have found so so difficult is when she feels aggrieved after an argument, she has to 'win' and she feels I should 'feel what she feels'. She will therefore, verbally lash out with accusations to reduce me to tears. If she doesn't like something, instead of having a discussion; she will give the silent treatment (where you know something is wrong) and gas light.

At the present time we have had limited contact for nearly 18months. My DH and I had just had enough; had enough of going to see her to talk about 'a row', me then being verbally bashed, cry. We would then bump along nicely and then something would happen and the sulking/silent treatment would happen, I would walk on eggshells until we would row again.

Since going low contact my DF/DG the enablers have tried to push me to telephone/visit to sort things out with my mother. On one occasion my mother was at my house, she verbally attacked me; my DF just sat there, I was stunned and my DH lost it and told her to stop. Another time, we were invited to a very important family occasion. We said we would go. However, after hearing that my mother had arranged a table plan and we were to sit at the end with the children and were not allowed to do X,y and z, we declined. I was then telephoned by DG and told how disappointed she was and my DF pleaded with me to go. We went and it was as awful as we Imagined it would be..virtually ignored the whole time. The thing is, everyone else thought it went well and it was the start of building some bridges .

What can I do? My confidence has soared since being low contact and I am happier. however, the feeling of anxiety rears when I have a family event that I HAVE to attend. I feel bad about myself and worry if I have done the right thing.

I have a DD, we are adamant that she is not exposed to this. I worry that I will repeat the very things that my mother has done to me.

Help.

Meerka I sort of meant that I don't want permanent NC but any alternative involves me being expected to go backwards. Which I'm not willing to do. Looks like this NC is going to last a while. If I did contact her in 6-8 months (or if she contacts me sooner) I don't know what I would say as I can't imagine how things could be without me going backwards. Which I won't do. I'll just need to take time to work it all out.

Phoenix I'm sorry about your experiences and it sounds like low contact really is good for you. You seem to have a strong family behind you in your DH, and a DD you want to protect. I'd say you're doing all the right things and the longer you maintain low contact the stronger you will be.
In terms of family events, are these events you have to go to? That would be my first cconsideration. You owe nothing to your mother to be there but also, you owe nothing to her enablers. If they are the ones pressuring you to go they're only further enabling making the whole thing pretty clear cut - protect yourself.
In the events where you have to or do want to go it sounds as if your mother has a lot of control. Are these her events? Why does she have control over the seating plan? If they are events she's hosting then I wouldn't go. (I tend to go for 'my dad and I don't talk much so it would be strange for me to go' acknowledging that you've been put in the dysfunctional position and are only acting appropriately. 'i'd love to see you on saturday though and I can give you your present then')
If your mother isn't in control, either through herself and her enablers then I'm not sure what to suggest. I'd you want to go, go, but if you don't don't. Don't feel you need to justify your decisions. You don't even need to be in a room with somebody who treats you badly.
If you feel happy and you're protecting yourself and your family you are doing the right thing. Even if that means turning down invites you feel awful for declining. Even if that means seeing a therapist beforehand to talk about coping mechanisms, arranging for your dd to not attend and stay with a friend instead, approaching neutral hosts beforehand and explaining that you're anxious about the seating plan etc. But if I were you I'd avoid as much as possible as it seems like NC is only a good thing for you and your family.

ah I see love

phoenix welcome

Attila - for context, friend is also NC and was making the point that it's generous to offer that when I'm otherwise NC, rather than being extreme or ridiculous. Really wasn't clear sorry! I get what you're saying though.

It has confused me as I thought she would a) jump at the chance because b) she would expect the therapist to side with her. I don't think there's any point though.

Thanks for all the comments.

Phoenix - you don't have to go. Nobody will die if you don't. It's okay to protect yourself.

Thanks for the further clarification Peppermint. I have seen examples of toxic parents being taken to family therapy on these threads over the years and its rarely gone at all well for their now adult children, infact it blew up in their faces. These people simply fail to apologise or take any real responsibility for their actions.

FWIW I think your mother has refused the idea of sitting with a family therapist simply because she feels she has done nothing wrong in the first place.

Thanks Attila. I think I need to let go of the fantasy where she shows up. Not that I'm expecting anything good from it, I just thought she'd want to try. That after all her crazy hoovering she'd take an opportunity you know?

But it would almost certainly blow up in my face. I think I just want someone else to tell her that she is wrong.

In fact I'm starting to realise I've dodged a bullet. Talking to her has never gone well.

My therapist thinks she knows on some level that she has done wrong but that she projected those feelings onto me. He has also categorically said that he wouldn't see my mum and me together as it would probably do a lot of damage for me.

Little triumphs!

This week I have stood up to my DPs and told them their comments about me were rude, inappropriate and only intended to help them feel good about themselves and not to help me and that I didn't want to hear them anymore. It went surprisingly well but I think that was a lot to do with the shock of me actually standing up for myself - will have to see how it pans out in the longer term as I am sure there will be a price to pay!

I have also witnessed them potentially committing a social faux pas and haven't intervened or said anything about it (usually I would warn them) but it's their bad behaviour, right? They should be accountable for it. I am not giving in to the obligation or guilt to clean up after them, although I admit I feel bad about not telling them and it is preying on my mind a bit.

Hoping everyone has a lovely and peaceful weekend.

he sounds a wise therapist, peppermint

hippy it takes a lot to stand up to them but I wonder if it takes even more to not intervene and stop them messing up ... though perhaps it's just me. But that sounds like you're letting responsibility for other people go and letting things unfold in their own time ... which is a good thing, children aside.

Well done Hippy. You aren't responsible for them. You really really aren't.

Meerka, he is - and has helped me untangle so much of the family crap. I can't believe how far I've come with all of this in the last few years.

Phoenix - your DM sounds so much like mine. Never in the wrong, self centred, no empathy, gaslights etc etc

Not a full on narc but definitely lots of the traits !

If you haven't already read it 'will I ever be good enough' is a really good read and although I've only been coming to the Stately Home for a few weeks the wisdom of people on here who have been through so much worse than I have has been such a help in making me realise that I'm not a terrible daughter and its not always up to me (and you!) to build bridges

Hello
Long time lurker but first time poster.

My parents used shame as a form of control.

My Dad was always right and my mum always used him as a threat.

Sorry not making much sense.

If your Dad finds out he will.............(be really let down and disappointed get angry).

I think my Mum was more abusive by using my Dad's disappointment as a threat.

They made me feel I was a bad person who was to stupid to make her own decisions.

Now I feel I make stupid decisions because I'm a bad person.

too stupid

shame eats away at you ... it's so corrosive.

Have you been able to talk to anyone ineed? a friend, partner, counsellor? No one should ever be made to feel stupid and bad like this.

be gentle on yourself, as far as you can

ineed recognising and naming shame is a good thing to have done. That voice that tells you that you are bad and stupid isn't you. It's toxic shame talking.

I'm only recently realising how much of what my parents said informed my self-image. And it made me realise how much projection went on. My dad said I was disrespectful when he never treated me with respect. He said I was ungrateful when he never appreciated that he had lovely kids who loved him even though he was a total bastard. Etc.

Yesterday I remembered something seemingly trivial about my dad that is really annoying me now I think of it. He'll sit at the dinner table while my mum fusses about bringing things in. My dad will say things like, when is she going to sit down, why isn't she sitting down, like he's so concerned about her, but he won't actually offer to help, let alone actually getting up. So he makes a big show of apparently being concerned, but it's all for show. If anyone helps it won't be him.

It's such bullshit and nobody has ever dared call him on it.

Well - I was right - there was a price to pay!

Apparently it is still ok to call me names and then when I say it is rude I am still taking the comment out of context / taking it personally.

Oh well - I will keep trying anyway and see if it makes a difference in the long run. As long a I keep standing up for myself I am sure things will get better.

ineed I can understand the shame thing - I was made to feel ashamed of all sorts of things that aren't actually shameful as a child. It's so damaging and you do carry it into adulthood. I am sure you are not a bad person. You are a person who has been treated very badly. It's not your fault and things will get better.

I had a major realisation this morning (in the shower, which is where most of my thinking happens!). Apologies, I think this is going to be rather disjointed, I just hope someone can make sense of this.

My mother is one of those who likes to insult, then cover it with an 'I was only joking' comment when I point out she was being rude, tells me I need to 'chill' (really wierd hearing her say that the first time, but she did!) and gets upset that I've tried to defend myself. Of course, the one time I tried it out on her she didn't believe I was only joking and took a while to stop being upset by what I'd said. (I made a suggestion which, to anyone else wouldn't have been untoward, but would have meant she actually did something on a weekly basis which she would have enjoyed, but since she's too much of a martyr to have fun, so I knew she wouldn't agree with the idea.)

One theme she liked to come out with during my teenage years / early twenties, was along the lines of the fact she felt sorry for the guy who was eventually going to marry me, because he didn't know then, at that time, how lucky he was not to have met me yet. The implication being that I would ruin the life of the poor bloke. Whilst I rationally know that that isn't true, (I'm not that bad a person) it's so deeply ingrained into me that I believe it, and consequently have avoided relationships for that very fact.

Of course, if I mentioned this to my mother I would be told she was only joking which makes it worse in a way, that my life has been effectively ruined by her having a joke with herself.

What I realised today is that this is the reason my instinct is to run when anyone takes an interest in me. It's not a fear of sex and relationships per se (which I always believed, despite having had a lot of good sex in the past, but only with someone who I knew was only with me for a lack of anyone better, not because he particularly wanted to be, but that more than suited me!). It's because I really don't want to ruin someone's life, which I have been brainwashed into believing is what will happen.

Not sure if this realisation helps me in any way, but it has made sense of something huge in my life.

Rabbits - it's so shocking when you realise , isn't it ! Do you have time to process this a bit today, or are you rushing about with work / kids ?

Please try to make a little time for yourself .

You know that your mother is very cruel and none of this has never ever been a joke ? And that its not true?

She thinks that if you are single , you will be more available to her and dependent on her , so she can use and manipulate you .

Stacey - thanks for replying. I am working today (though alone in office hence typing this) but I have a four-mile walk planned for lunchtime which should give me some much-needed thinking time.

I do know it's not a joke, and not true, but it's too deeply ingrained to get past. I wish I could, what I'd most love is to be in a relationship and have children, but it's just never going to happen. I can't risk ruining someone else's life, I just can't.

My mum has a very strange attitude towards relationships. It hasn't helped that she was widowed young and never had another relationship. I was forced into the role of her proxy spouse from a young age.

There's definitely something about me being single, which is why I live 600 miles away from her! She assumes if I'm on my own for a few days that I'll be ringing her every day as I'll be lonely, whereas I'm not. She is still waiting for me to come to my senses and move back down where she lives, and can't understand I don't want to.

Rabbits

What your mother (who is frankly not worthy of being called that at all) has done is absolutely horrific, not just to say emotionally abusive as well. You know that you would not ruin someone else's life, you would enhance their life in a relationship. Also if you were to get married too, that person would have freely chosen you as his partner to do so. You've always been told that you are not good enough, well your mother is plainly wrong there. SHE is not good enough, she was and remains a toxic parent to you and I also think you were forced into the role of proxy spouse to keep you further dependent on her (and for you to look after her in her old age).

Have you ever discussed any of this with a therapist, I think this is something that you now need to pursue if you have not already done so.

Not at all surprised you live 600 miles away from her; you need mental distance now as well as physical. I would also look into cutting back all contact with her with a view to going no contact.

Re your comments:-

"Well - I was right - there was a price to pay!

Apparently it is still ok to call me names and then when I say it is rude I am still taking the comment out of context / taking it personally.

Oh well - I will keep trying anyway and see if it makes a difference in the long run. As long a I keep standing up for myself I am sure things will get better.

Hippymama,

Your last paragraph is to me a triumph of hope over experience. Do not reward bad behaviours by maintaining contact with them.

Ultimately you need to further distance yourself and detach emotionally from them. They will continue to ignore and challenge any boundary you care to set them (hence them accusing you of taking their comments personally). I note they still use the usual sorts of responses such toxic people come out with (second paragraph), its not sadly untypical.

rabbits - in haste, completely agree with attila and everything she has said.