But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I'm sorry that I can't offer any words for anyone else. I can feel your pain. Shitty sticks. Bastards. I think I have a long way to go!

McSantaPaws doesn't make you a bad person. Yeah it's awful and tragic if someones very loved dad dies and I wouldnt wish that on anyone. But someone else's feelings based on their experiences can't dictate the right reaction to your experiences. Just feel how you feel, who cares, doesn't make you a bad person. I have someone in my life who adored their dad and is heartbroken that he's gone rightly so. But they now think that a) they can tell me exactly how I should feel about my dad and b) they can tell me exactly how I should feel about death. I'm absolutely dreading my dad dying (NC fourish years) and wish he could live forever - ONLY because I know that him dying will fuck me up and convince me that I wasted the time I'm currently 'wasting' and I know how strong that feeling will be. But then I think who cares, I'm doing/feeling what I need to today so fine.
I've been away for a while mainly because I've had no contact with my mum since argument a few weeks ago which is so strange for us. I'm trying to put it out of my head because on a day to day basis I'm fine but when I think about the big picture and the fact that the NC either has to end at some point (terrifying) or will last months (terrifying) it's horrible and I don't know how to do it except one day at a time and not thinking about it. On the plus side I'm feeling incredibly strong about minor things. These were all things I was doing alone anyway being an ENTIRELY INDEPENDENT ADULT FOR YEARS NOW (deep breath) but with someone telling you in your ear that you're dependent on them it's very convincing even if your actions are doing the opposite
Yy to the money thing. I had thrown at me in the recent argument that I was 'being very ungrateful'. umm...1. That's irrelevant to the conversation and hurtful and 2. I never asked for any of the money etc and tried to turn it down but to say that is more ungrateful.
Finally I could have written your post about realising everything's fucked up.. Especially the bit about their home no longer being a refuge. makes it (painfully) clear that things can't go back to how they were. Then again I've hit awful rock bottom plenty of times before and DM's managed to forget it completely... Just this time I'm not willing to (pretending to be strong in the hope I convince myself ) sorry for the essay post, just dropping in to say hi

staffie thank you, i appreciate you saying that.

GoodtoBetter that's so exciting, congratulations!

Finally I hope the counselling goes well. GPs recommend CBT because it's what the NICE guidelines say they should recommend. I hope it helps :)

McSanta you are NOT a bad person. No way. I think one reason we envisage the death of an abusive parent is that's it's an end to unfinished grief and unfulfilled hope. It means an end to being let down. It means not having to explain to other people why we are NC. I know it will be easier when my parents are dead.

Loveheart0 that person is projecting terribly. I'm so sorry. I find it hard to deal with that because I just want to scream at the person that I am so jealous and can they stop taunting me actually.

Hi McSantaPaws

Re your comment to Peppermint:-

"Peppermint - had to reply straight away, got to the bit where you mention
trading a dead parent worth remembering. That is SO it".

I would second those thoughts entirely.

"I've done that and felt guilty. God it's difficult to actually verbalise and to accept the thoughts. If my rambling don't make sense I apologise. Today I walked past some wreaths laid in the church yard. To the best dad in the world. Im waiting for the day my df dies, and I'm so fucking weirded out by that. He's a fucking low life shit. Should I really be thinking that? Does that make me a bad person? Should I be posting this?"

Yes you can think that
No it does not make you a bad person
And yes you should be posting this.

I went to a funeral yesterday and the contrast between that service and my FILs was marked indeed. Much outpouring of love and grief from his family at that service unlike at FILs.

My DH has no great memories of his late father (and almost fell into the trap of desperately trying to create some before he died precisely because of that fact). His dad was basically emotionally absent, narcissistic and self absorbed. Family really meant bugger all to him and in an article written for to the local press he stated that "its nice to have somewhere where I feel like I belong" when he referred to his years of volunteering. He really did prefer to spend all his free time volunteering (in his case just turning up to be seen in uniform).

Hello everyone and all new people. I am a bit low at the moment and don't have any good advice.

I've been feeling angry for a couple of weeks but just dipped into depression and apathy at the weekend. I was supposed to be having surgery on Saturday just gone, but it was cancelled a couple of weeks ago due to some equipment problems at the hospital. I still don't have the reschedule date and it's just given me such a knock. It's also brought up all my feelings again about being NC with my mum, which was partly prompted by the surgery because I knew I wouldn't be able to tell her about the surgery in advance because she would make it all about her, and had been dreading telling her after expecting her disapproval or - again - her making it all about her.

My sister is so supportive to me, but there are things I can't tell her or talk about with her because she has some MH issues (mainly anxiety), worse than I do, and I don't know if she remembers all this stuff from our childhoods and I don't want to bring it up if she doesn't. Like the time our dad shouted at my sister at the dinner table "You were an accident, I never wanted you and your mum should have got rid of you!" My mum then later on comforted my sister by explaining that it wasn't an accident, my mum had deliberately not taken her contraceptive pills so as to get pregnant. Seriously not information that my sister should have had to hear at the age of 10 or so (or ever).

So basically my mum sperm-jacked my dad. She told him the Pill wasn't 100% effective, it says so on all the leaflets in the boxes... And she hid the pregnancy til she was at least 3 months so he couldn't force her to have a termination.

Then my son called me this weekend (he's 19) and his best mate had come up to stay with him, said "Hey DS do you want a go on my new motorbike" - son got on, has had no bike lessons at all, and promptly wrapped it round a tree. And of course his excess on his insurance would be more than the repair, so I've ended up BUYING the bike off him just to get rid of him and hope the friendship isn't terminally broken. Poor lad had only had it for literally 3 hours...

Then my DS was really low, he has some MH issues particularly around self-esteem instilled in him by his bitch Narc birth mum. So he needed a lot of reassurance and care which has just left me emotionally exhausted and like I've got no petrol in my tank iykwim.

He then called me at 4am today to say his Income Support hadn't gone into his bank accounts and therefore he couldn't afford to pay for his bus ticket today to get to his course so could I please transfer him a tenner. Jeez!

Work has been really stressful for the last month as we're at our busiest time of the year. Normally when I get home I relax for an hour and then I work on building up my self-employed business, but lately I've been so exhausted that I don't have the energy, and now I worry that I'm losing traction.

Anyway enough of me whinging. Just needed to have a little vent!

Hello all.

I've only read through this page of posts and feel so grateful to be in the right place where other people are in my situation and get it. I find it such a struggle being surrounded by people in loving family relationships, and myself feeling ashamed to be NC.

Been NC with my mother for last two years. Have been going through some awful situations - move of country, divorce from abusive relationship, DS serious illness, new job, eviction from house, now buying house - and have kept saying to myself, can't manage all this AND be in contact with mother, who would make it all about herself and divert all my energy. Which has made it manageable.

But now DD has been to stay with DM, told her a little of what is going on, and DM is trying to suck me back in. Saying she wants to support me, but then lashing out that I'm freezing her out, showing her up, being obdurate, being unreasonable, she's in such pain. She's offering some money for me to go on a holiday, which I would need, but I would so much rather just stay at home and not take the money and the strings. If I take it, she'll say I demand too much from her and play the good mother card, Look what I've done for you... I would so much rather continue no contact.

I want to just walk away again, but its so hard to just continue to leave her email unanswered as I want to. And I have these voices in my head saying I'm being unreasonable, other people manage contact with their mothers. It is really hard to stand firm. And really I'd like to stand firm with her, and also be out and proud with my colleagues, where I feel ashamed to be in this situation, but not sure what to say.

'I'm estranged from my mother who is very difficult and has severe issues which I can't cope with at present.' How have you explained your choices briefly to others so they back off, but hear you?

Hello redmaple

The email - Don't. Don't answer her. Other people manage their mothers because they are decent, tolerable mothers. Not people who want to control, manage and constrict you into the mold they set up for you.

Walk away. Throw the email away. Also, be very careful about letting your daughter go to stay and if she's old enough that you can't prevent it warn her not to speak of your personal stuff and why. People like your mother are very manipulative and mentally unhealthy and they can do dangerously manipulative things to grandchildren.

Different people have different ways of coping with well meaning people who don't realise that some people don't have mothers, they have life-suckers. "We don't have much contact" said briefly is one answer. or "it's difficult". or someone suggested a slightly longer but rather good one "some people aren't very nice. When they have children, those children have a parent who isn't very nice". Some people will never get it though. But others, they will, or will at least accept that there is something going on that they are best not judging about.

Meerka

Thank you so much. Yes. 'We don't have much contact.' Yes thats it for pubic consumption. And the 'Some people aren't very nice' - that somehow makes it feel ok for me at a very young level.

It matters to be one of a community where people get it, and are handling different bits of it in our different lives. I will walk away again. I lose perspective with her. But deep down I know what I want, and was doing. One email shouldn't get me to change course.

redmaple I have set emails to forward to someone else, could you do that?

I avoid the word 'estranged' as people can be really weird about it sometimes.

"some people aren't very nice. When they have children, those children have a parent who isn't very nice"

I found this really validating!

I think it's best not to say anything that can be questioned - you don't want to inadvertently invite people to suggest you should be able to cope Iyswim.

I generally say: my parents aren't in my life.

Once someone pushed me asking what if they died and didn't I want to make it right. I said of course I do, of course I wish I had parents like yours, but I don't and I'm not a fucking magician.

Which shut them up...

"My parents aren't in my life" works well as its ambiguous enough that they can't be sure of why, or whether there's anything to criticise - the pushy person knew I had estranged myself.

Peppermint

'My parents aren't in my life' - yes that is brilliant. 'But I don't and I'm not a fucking magician' - thats brilliant too. Thank you so much. I find it so helpful to have other peoples phrases to make my own. I'm not normally short of words. But this situation gets me so tangled up I can't get it in perspective and end up saying too much or nothing at all to defend myself.

Just remember you don't need anyone else's permission or approval.

I wish I could remember who came up with the ´some people have parents who aren´t very nice´ sentance to credit them with it!

You don't owe most people an explanation . I mean you probably would explain to your adult children ( in a general way ) or partner but not to a random neighbour / colleague / friend .

You just have to keep repeating the same thing with some people

Do you see you parenst often?
No sadly , we are not in contact

Oh really , why is that ?
It's a long story / it's complicated

I don't understand, why don't you see them ?
IDon't really want to talk about it

I would feel terrible if I i never saw my Parents.
Yes it's hard

Won't you feel bad if they die ?
I'm sure you appreciate that I dont want to talk about it

And on and on

If you give people reasons, they will ask for more information and try to get you to change your views. Or tell you that it's not so bad or criticise you .

So I'd advise you not to discuss it with anyone except those who need to know , or who will understand

Do people really ask things like "how would you feel if they died?", is that "friends" asking or randoms? I can't believe people ask such fucking rude and personal questions!!! That's terrible!
Luckily I've never really been pushed by anyone, "we're not in touch" seems to work if it comes up. Or if it's totally inconsequential, i.e I'll never see them again or it's just easier to let them beleive all is normal I just lie or lie by omission. So, I just let them think we are in touch.
"Are you going back at Christmas?" (we live abroad)
"No, not this time"
or
"Does your mum come over to visit"
"It depends, she hasn't been for a while"
And just avoid any conversation about it except with really close friends who get it.

Yes they do.

I've had one deeply beloved and loving parent who died and I miss her bitterly and deeply still. Still weep for her and I don't think the pain has lessened much over the years.

As you know I've also had the biol. mother from hell, though she didnt bring me up, and a really unpleasant controlling, disapproving father and stepmother who did bring me up. Now and then I said in passing that I knew my biol. mother but that we weren't close and I'd get the 'but she's your mother" and "it'll be too late when she dies". I've had that about my father too.

well yes it'll be too late when he dies. But that'll actually be too late for -him- to build a nice relationship. Because the one he has at the moment is all about keeping his distance and looking for ways to criticise and put me in the wrong. At very long last I can honestly say (at least some of the time) .... it's Him Not Me.

As for my biol. mother it was too late decades before she died. Though I don't think she was evil as such, as some other people do. More very, very sick though she could certainly behave in very bad ways.

I find it intrusive and rude of people to come out with comments like 'it'll be too late when it dies" but I guess they are working off their own experience and can't see beyond it.

It's funny how they (our crap parents) never think about how one day it'll be too late, isn't it? And how the onus doesn't seem to be on them to be the ones to put things right, either in their own minds or in the minds of the people who make these crass, unhelpful comments.

There's such a huge cultural bias towards it being the responsibility of the child to make things right in the parent/child relationship which is completely upside down IMO. My belief is that it's the responsibility of the parent to lead the relationship, but these people (and an awful lot of society) never seem to have got that memo.

On the topic of nice, my father was once described by a journalist in the Guardian as "the nicest man she had met in a long time". Ha bloody ha. Nice to strangers. Nice to people he campaigns on behalf of, when they're thousands of miles away. Nice to his huge circle of friends, actually, too. But not really nice to his own daughter. Wankbadger.

My mother, in one of our last conversations (several years ago, when we'd already been mostly NC for a few years already), said "the thing is, I can cope with not being in touch with you. It's not intolerable. It hurts, but I can bear it. Maybe I'm callous. Maybe I'm a coward. But that's the way I am." She's someone most people think of as very nice, too.

I feel very grateful for whatever it is in me that has allowed me to feel and experience a completely different kind of love to the love they claim to have for me. I couldn't bear it if my son were estranged from me as an adult? And I wouldn't, I would do literally whatever it took to mend our relationship (though it's pretty hard to envisage at the moment that it could ever become that broken anyway!). I would see it as my responsibility to put things right.

Random question mark there! iPad!!

Has anyone spoken to their parents/mother about their childhood?

I'm having therapy and have been sorting through where it all began - as basically an unloved or at least less loved child who was 'oversensitive' - but am unsure whether it's a good idea to talk to my dm about it.

She's just gone through the change and seems a lot calmer and relaxed, our relationship is a lot less about control now and more friendly. So I don;t want to ruin it.

But at the same time, I still crave recognition for what happened and not necessarily an apology but at least a frank discussion about what happened and why.

Has anyone done this and it gone well? She has control issues and had problems bonding with me (I think), is a little manic at times but not bi-polar, just very edgy.

Popalot I think only you can judge the risks and likelihood of success with your DM...

I have never attempted this, previously it was out of FOG but now it is because I just don't think I will get anything near what I need... My DP is a narc, a compulsive liar and nothing is ever, ever their fault. I accept this and we get along quite well, albeit with me now starting to stand up for myself and push back against some of the hurtful comments and disrespectful, boundary ignoring behaviour.

I guess it comes down to whether you think you would be able to get a frank discussion from her or whether it would just descend into hysterics and arguing. If there is a risk of the latter, it is probably best for you to try to accept things for what they are, your relationship for what it is and do what you can do to help you move past these issues.

Good luck.

Good yes they really do ask. I've had well meaning but fucking tactless friends ask me how I'll feel when they die.

popalot it would be more beneficial to examine why you want the recognition and learn to meet that need in yourself. Trying to talk to my mother drove me to the brink of a breakdown and I wouldn't advise you even contemplate it without working through it with a therapist - what you want from it, how you'll cope etc.

She's just gone through the change and seems a lot calmer and relaxed, our relationship is a lot less about control now and more friendly.

it ... may ... be possible to talk to her. I do think that hormones sometimes have a big influence on people; how they behave affects their bodies and their bodies affects their minds. I have known one very domineering woman suddenly change and chill out hugely after the change.

But it's a risk. High risk even. it may be better to wait til you're sure her hormones are fully settled! even then .... well. Suggest you write out on paper the best possible outcomes, the middling outcomes and the worst outcomes. Then consider how you will handle each outcome if it happens, and weigh up if it's worth it. Seems to me it's a high-risk, high-reward thing to talk to her becuase you may well feel much more at peace afterwards, if she can really acknowledge how bad it was for you.

Popalot

You say you do not want to ruin things with your mother; what about your mother's responsibility here for your overall relationship?. She has certainly done a lot of damage I daresay to you. I would also think she does not have anything like the level of responsibility you carry for this relationship either. I think you carry around still an awful lot of fear, obligation and guilt.

What would you want such a conversation to achieve; such rarely if ever go at all well.

I think you would simply get the same types of responses such toxic people come out with when they are challenged in such a manner. I would not contemplate doing this at all particularly with someone who still has control issues and is edgy. You may not get what you at all seek from her but instead feel a heck of a lot worse. Toxic people anyway never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Peppermint - Yes, I'll talk to my therapist about it first. I find the whole therapy thing a bit weird because I feel like I'm losing control all the time and that maybe she doesn't believe me (tho we have talked about this a lot and I know logically of course she does!!)

Meerka and hippy - I have a glimmer of hope that she might want to discuss it because last year I stood up to some humiliating talk about my appearance between me, mum and sis. Sis went mad and said I was accusing her of being a bully. But mum apologised (of course I backtracked and apologised to them both and blamed myself - but that was pre-therapy). So I think she might be open to at least a discussion of facts...but maybe I'm rushing things?

Overall, I think yes maybe it is probably too high risk at the moment, as I'm not sure what I would bring up, less sure about what she will admit to and even more worried about upsetting her (mad, I know, but again I am a 'protector' apparently and want to do anything to stop people getting upset). I know one of my sisters will simply not accept what happened, as she had a very different experience of childhood, but my older sister has opened up about something quite traumatic that happened to her and I wonder if she needs to talk with me to our mother about it as she was still very upset about it.

I guess I was wondering if anyone had done it and been successful, but actually if it almost brings people to a breakdown I don't think I can do it because I have gone through years of feeling like crap and can't face it giving me a setback just when I think I'm getting better.

I would like it to be acknowledged but that would be too perfect a world. I guess it would be so I could say 'see, that's why I'm like this - not because I am depressive/over-sensitive'. I suppose in that sense I'm looking for blame and actually that's not what I should be doing.