But we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It's March 2015 and the Stately Home is still open to visitors. Unfortunately I have not been able to make the links work; is it possible for one of you lovely people to do that?.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I can't tell you what to do . But I'll tell you what I'd do

Don't waste energy trying to get them to support you. They are in their 60s, they are not going to change now . Detach , emotionally at least .

Don't give them a piece of your mind, they love this. They can cry to their freinds about how mean you are to them when they are upset

Get practical support from where ever you can . Freinds, neighbours, colleagues , others mums at the school , people at your book club /church / gym . Don't be too proud to ask . Some will say no. Some will say yes and become good friends .

Don't bitch to them about your unhelful paremts. People with normal families don't understand .

Use all your energy to fight this illness. Contact suport organisations , local ones, , use phone lines , read webpages . Get informed

Thank you, and can I just say Stacey I've just read your posts and you are amazing

smother I haven't found your story yet, but you seem to have so many words of wisdom and support for so many on this thread, you sound lovely.

The thing that really shouted at me from your writing was you saying that she couldn't speak to you because she was finding your news difficult to deal with yes, that stunned me, so much that I replied "It's all about YOU isn't it", to which she gave an audible intake of breath. I've never answered back to her like that before, but she bloody deserved it.

I know what I need to do. I need to stop hoping that they will step up to the mark, stop wishing they would come good and just accept the way they are. Trouble is, I do need them. DH is wonderful, but he's working full time and there's a limit to what he'll be able to manage. MiL has offered to sit with me, which is great but I'd prefer my own mother as MiL and I have a very reserved, polite relationship.

I've tried to cut back on contact with my parents in the past, but I can't get past wanting to tell them everything that they have done to me, to make them understand. But as you all say, if I do that they'll just find a way to spin it to make themselves the victims won't they?

I said to DH last night - things were ok until our relationship changed last year when they chose to support DSis and cut me out for not doing so. DH said "No, your relationship has always been like this - all that changed was that you started to see it for what it is. You changed, not them". He's a wise one is my DH.

PJs sorry to hear of your medical situation. Your DH sounds like a keeper :)

MiL has offered to sit with me, which is great but I'd prefer my own mother as MiL and I have a very reserved, polite relationship.

Be really honest with yourself and try to picture exactly what "support" you will get from your mum. Don't imagine what you'd like it to be or how you think a "normal" mother-daughter relationship would function. Base it on what you know of your mum's behaviour. Base it on her saying "You've upset me terribly with this news that you might have cancer." Base it on her saying "Why should we help you, your DH can just leave work and come and do it."

Then ask yourself if you really need that "support" during this time or would it be better to have someone who might be polite and reserved but at least won't throw emotional blackmail at you and start dredging up past arguments?

On a practical note, also speak to your vet and explain the situation and ask if there's anything they recommend. I'm sure this type of thing happens fairly frequently and some owners may not have anyone to help. There might be things they can suggest so that your DH could, for example, just pop back at lunchtime to sort the dog and then return to work. Do you normally have to lift him out of the door to do his poos? You could temporarily have him use a poo-pad perhaps?

Its really odd timing, me posting here so recently.

Last contact I had with my Dad was back in January, a chatty email exchange. He has now sent me a text. He is back in the country and is asking to phone me this evening.

Not only have a left my H, moved house and changed my land line number, I never told him any of this had happened. He never calls on the mobile, always the land line. So I guess I ought to let him know my new number then.

Should make for an interesting phone call later

Haven't been on for a while. 'd'f is kicking off big style, so much so my Dsis is beginning to understand. Please tell me what you think of these actions:

Telling Dsis that my db was a rent boy, that he knows a secret so bad about my db that he can't bear to tell. That my dm ruined his career by writing to his boss numerous times. Apparently she wrote that she had been sexually assaulted and she needed her dh home from tour. He could have been a Major you know but my dm ruined this. He can't understand why I won't talk to him. He was strict with us because that what you do with kids. He never hit us more than about 5 times.

There are several witnesses to prove these revelations as lies. I'm just actually lost for words. He's just spouted absolute shit, barefaced shit. There is nothing endearing or pleasant about him. I'm glad actually that he's blown his cover. My Dsis was still very much in FOG. Me, no way. Although I still have issues. I think I'm still scared of him - so maybe still the fear of FOG? But i am NC, with him threatening cajouling and pleading. I stay schtum. So is that the F from FOG I wonder -sorry thinking out loud.

He's moving to Scotland soon, in his big tantrum strop. Thank fuck for that. I can see my family without him in the picture.

My db then went round to confront him. He was told to fuck off, wanker. He was pushed a couple of times. Then the revelation was that db was in a gay porno movie where he buggered 11 men, one after the other. Apparently my 'd'f had seen this movie and shown my dm. db was so astounded by this he nearly laughed. I can't believe that that specimen can't even call him a parent would think up something like that, especially about his own son. FFS! It's so disgusting. Thoughts please

it never fails to suprise me and be a revelation newly discovered over and over how shit they are.

although thats not painful any more

There are many wise women on here and i never fail to be reminded of that each time i pop by here and hop around various other threads on MN. I have certainly gained much insight having been on the journey to get where others are trying to get now, perhaps that looks like wisdom from the other side pjs ? its just going through the pain i think, of stepping back and seeing the wood, realising it is what it is and processing that hugeness! and then it passes.

I went through mine alone, so my story is not on here, only in bits and pieces where is relates to another's and sometimes, very rarely, I come on looking for some support when there's a wobble moment! As I say tho, rare.

Over the years i have nc too out of necessity from being stalked, but thats another story [tbusmle]

Happy and peaceful Easters to everyone

PJs . I think you should concentrate on your surgery and recovery and let DH tell them to go to hell give you some space. I have always found it hard to ask people for help because there was always an emotional price to pay when I asked my mother for anything. It's taken me years to realise that good people will help you because they can and they want to. They won't hold it over you, they won't act the martyr and they won't use it as a way to manipulate you. If you can find a way to sort the practical things without them you will be giving yourself emotional freedom.

Hello all. Just popping in to ask for some advice on visiting the family home when doing so makes you feel awful? I live several hundred miles away from my parents and by and large this works very well - they are better by phone / email but when around on person manage to put me down and criticise me without I think even realising it on their part. I struggle with depression and it is always made worse by family contact.

The proble is there's a family wedding this weekend so I have to go down. I've felt absolutely awful in the run up to it. Phoned my parents to sort some details and lasted all of 30 seconds before the conversation turned to things I hadn't done to their satisfaction! I know from experience that being around them will consist of constant tiny needlings about the clothes I wear, how I interact with my husband, my politics (fuck the upcoming election), where I live, etc. My family are mostly good people but having been away I've come to realise that they've existed within this atmosphere of criticism and negativity for so long that they don't even realise they're doing it. I couldn't even begin to talk to them about it as it's so ingrained.

Can any one suggest any coping mechanisms for dealing with the family environment (for a few enforced days) when it makes you feel deeply unhappy?

Cautious I feel your pain, and didn't want to ignore your question. I too put up with this kind of constant niggling, and you often don't realise how much it gets you down until you have some space (which it sounds like you've successfully done by living so far away, well done!)

Is there anyone who can go with you to the wedding - DH? Friend? That's how I cope - my DH knows all about my history, and it's so refreshing to hear him tell me that he sees it, and hears it and it's not all in my head. Somehow, just having him there shields me from a lot of the shit.

I'd also advise keeping your time alone with them to a minimum - e.g. don't stay with them if you can help it, get a hotel. Don't lift share with them to the wedding - this always results in huge arguments in my family, creating tension before we even arrive. Once you're at the wedding, are there other family members or friends that you can socialise with? Because if there are, you can get away with avoiding your parents for the most part.

If time alone with them is inevitable, just take deep breaths, and use the knowledge of who they are and what they do to shield you from their picking criticisms. Smile and know that in a few days you'll be hundreds of miles away again. Don't take it to heart.

It's easier said than done, and I totally know where you're coming from. Sometimes it's hard not to revert to the child you once were, buckling under the criticism.

I have come to realise the effect it has had on me recently, whilst doing some DIY with DH. He gives me a job to do, and I end up constantly asking him whether I'm doing it wrong, and apologising for being so slow. He says its fine, I'm doing a great job, I can take my time.... and that's when it dawned on me that absolutely every time I did a job around the home growing up, I was endlessly criticized to the point that it ended in me bursting into tears (at which point I was bullied even more) so that the tiniest task was built up into a nightmare...

Adulthood and a supportive partner is what gets me through

p.s.BadgersNadgers thank you and I LOVE your username!

cautious Is the person getting married a close relative? Do you really want to be there, or are you just going for the sake of appearances? If it's the latter, pull a sudden bout of stomach flu. "Oh it's such a shame we'll miss it, but of course we wouldn't want to infect anyone and norovirus is so infectious. The doctor said we shouldn't socialise with anyone until at least 48hrs symptom free." Then just sent a gift and card.

mcsanta at this string of pure crazy. Is your mum still around/with him? Have these accusations slowly got worse over the years or has there been a sudden acceleration? Because it almost sounds like the symptoms of dementia onset, or possibly paranoid personality disorder. Horrible for you and your sibs to deal with, but I hope at least you can all now be "on side" together. And hooray that he's moving away!

Cautious I don't know but watching the answers , having to visit my mother next week and have felt physically sick for the last 24 hours , I keep repeating the mantra "I ama successful 49 year old women not a 13 year old" but it's very hard

Cautious - I had to deal with a NC sister last year. I was under lots of pressure to 'make up' from other family members. I smile and nod and ignore. I had to have direct contact with sister, but just kept it polite and to the point. I refused to be drawn in.

A wedding is a big get together. You can 'hide' amongst other guests pretty easily if you want to. Any comments from you parents can be met with a smile and nod, or an 'I'm sorry you feel that way' kind of response. They want a reaction. Don't give them one. And don't tell them anything about your life, as if they're like my lovely sister, it will be used against you.

McSantaPaws - you don't seem to have taken the opportunity to ask your father how he came to be looking for gay porn? You DB can turn this back on that bastard if he wants to.

outtolunch snap! don't spend an awful lot of time at my fathers but we are usually emotionally bullied pestered into going over there at least once while he is over here. I dread it.

McSanta I was going to ask the same as whocansay above, where did he find this and why was he looking? seems very odd

I haven't heard a thing from my father since I responded to his text about the phone call. I basically told him I had a new number and had moved out. Not really my fault he cannot be bothered to keep in touch with me to find out how I am getting on is it? Would have been nice to have received something in response indicating he cared about me and asking if I am ok but I am a fool to expect this.

Hello everyone- hope everyone is having a better Easter than I am. If not- have a and on me.

Just thought i'd recap before jumping in as I haven't posted here for a few weeks:

I'm 22, nearly 23 and still live at home with my parents. My Mum is a abusive (emotionally at the moment but things have been physical) drunk- she can get through 2/3 bottles of wine a night if she wants to. While this is rare she does have at least a couple of glasses every night.

She has openly told me i'm a mistake and she doesn't love me- she had my brother, only wanted one child and then fell pregnant with me. As I said on my OP here- I honestly don't know why she didn't have an abortion. It's like she chose to have me and then take her anger out on me.

Nobody else sees it as she is "nice as pie" in real life- will buy me extravagant gifts for birthday/christmas, let's me use her car when I want (but usually this is hung over me in [b] every [/b] argument) which to other people translates as "things can't be so bad". It's very rare if a day goes by without us arguing. I feel in fear pretty much 24/7 when i'm at home of what is going to happen next.

It breaks my heart to see the relationship she has with my brother- she adores him and worships the ground he walks on. He's 25 and still gets spoilt- despite having a very, very well paid job in London he gets an allowance still and money sent to him at the drop of a hat. If I ask for a dime I get a barrage of abuse.

This has affected me my entire life and has left me with zilch self confidence. I eat to self harm, always have done, which led to me being bullied in school and me completely underachieving at the end of it.

I broke up with my exB three weeks a go now- and I miss him terribly. I'm completely torn- part of me says I can't go around being at his beck and call forever but I miss the good times- going out, support with Mum etc. The big problem is that my only "real" 2 other friends (we have hung round as a foursome for 7 years now) have fallen out with me over it.

I'm being left questioning if they were ever real friends because of they way they just "dropped" me. I guess it's hard from there point of view looking that i've taken it for so long and out of the blue changed my mind- but i'm trying to grow and move on with my life.

I was feeling pretty blue last Monday and they got in contact with me and asked me to come out- which I did, and things went OK but I was quickly asked to cook a meal and do some cleaning when we got back to the flat. Which I did- maybe I should of stuck up for myself instead of getting miserable over the fact they spent the time playing on the Xbox and laughing between themselves.

Thursday night they asked me to go out on Friday- I couldn't; as I had worked all day and had to work all day yesterday as well which they got shirty about but we agreed we would go for a meal last night. Cue phone call about 7pm that they had found someone else to come out "so I didn't have to if I didn't want to" = they found someone better to make up the numbers.

I'm finding it hard to let go because they have in a way protected me when it was convenient for them. Plus the fact i'm so chronically lonely and it is absolutely terrifying me.

Then let's throw work into the mix...

I started a voluntary job 6/7 months ago and from day one I got on really well with my manager. Relationships have always been a bit of a minefield for me- never really had anyone treat me with respect; so when I do I tend to attach myself to the relationship and maybe over think things.

My manager was always the one to say I was a friend, thinks of me as one of her own (there is a significant age gap between us). She moved to a different workplace a few months ago and approached me to come with her- which I have. But i'm just having serious doubts i've made the right decision- for her.

There has been some teething troubles with some of the staff- let's just say, apart from her (i think...), i'm working with a covent of witches. She has openly told me that she doesn't like these people- but she will be nice to their faces; and then bitch about them behind their back. She has told me "things are different with me I assure you" but when her nicey nice with me is the same as she talks to other staff she apparently doesn't like- is it any wonder I get mixed messages? Yesterday I was working in another part of work, came back in and she was talking to someone and said "you have to be careful what you say here". Not sure if she saw me coming back or not- but clearly doesn't trust me. How can she say she is a friend if she doesn't trust me- honestly?!

I've opened up a little bit to her in the past- there have been times when I have fought with my Mum and gone into work with a black eye and she has approached me concerned and i've told her things. It hasn't changed the relationship she shows me (if that even makes sense...) but I can't help feeling it has made her uncomfortable. Plus "nicey nice" Mum is probably not helping matters and making her doubt how bad things can really be for me.

She will always listen to me if I want to- but I think shes just doing it because she has to which she says "is part of her job and she just ignores it" when she is talking about other members of the team. She will pull me aside and want to talk if she can see i'm upset saying "she will always be there for me".

I don't know what to do. It's the only positive thing in my life so I can't let go of it- and at the same time I can't take a step back when i'm there. I just can't distance myself from someone who says they are a friend. I really don't.

I keep trying to talk to her about whether she is really OK with me working with her- and the comment I get is "whatever makes you happy". Which just suggests she's putting up with me because it's making me happy.

I don't know whether I have another fake friend, if I just need to give it more time or she feels she is stepping on eggshells.

Thank you all for letting me rant

hi everyone. more batshit crazy nonsense e mails here.

will try to post later.

Thanks all for the advice, it's really helpful.

pocket, unfortunately it isn't a wedding I can miss, and I also don't want to miss it. I really want to be there for the family member whose wedding it is. I am the only member of my family to move out of a single 10-mile radius so I really struggle maintaining a relationship with other family members whilst trying to control contact with my parents.

PJs I also think you have a fabulous username. My DH is going with me but he does find it hard too. He helps me know that it isn't all in my head but he gets upset seeing how I'm treated. We've talked about it and he says he's going to try to remain as calm as possible for my sake, as I know I won't be on anything like an emotionally even keel!

I also think I need to try to keep alcohol consumption to a minimum. It's bad but it's so tempting in such a stressful atmosphere to just let fill-ups happen but I know that also puts me in a worse place to control my emotions.

Soooo, she sent me 2 e mails about wanting to send presents to the kids. Sounded pathetic but all blamey as well. I wrote back and said basically, send if you want but btw it was you who left, not me. (She'd been saying I "walked away" in her e mail). So, a card arrived with 40 euros in. I bought a thank you card and DS wrote in it "thank you for the money, I bought XYZ".
So, e mail yday to my e mail address, but WRITTEN TO DS. Freak. I mean, honestly? If none of this had happened it would seem like a nice thing to do, but SERIOUSLY? What's the plan? Write to them via my e mail address and just cut out the middleman (i.e me) and avoid all need to apologise for anything, ever?
She's so fucking mental I can't begin to even fathom it.
Will be ignoring. Probably did the wrong thing with thank you note but don't want to give her the satisfaction of "I sent presents, they don't get acknowledged, blah blah blah".
God, I wish she'd just FOTTFSOF and then fuck off some more.

G2B I think you need to stop replying to everything. I know you wanted to be the bigger person but she is leaping on every contact and trying to claw her way back in. It's such obvious hoovering.

Cautious Shame you can't just not attend. Do you know the seating arrangements? Any chance you can ask to be seated somewhere far away from your parents? Can your DH rehearse saying "You are being extremely rude and we are not interested in your opinions, thank you"?

Eskimo Have I got this right - your friends invited you out and then expected you to cook them dinner and clean their flat ?!?! That is fucking outrageous if so!

Sorry to read this good.

Something to think about though is what does it matter if she does have the satisfaction of saying I sent presents and they don't respond?

She still has a little power because you don't want her telling people. Who are these people? And what do they matter to you?

You know what she has done, you know that she is irrational. There is a good chance she will say it anyway, even though you did send a thank you card.

so please don't stress about that.

Don't know if I'm in the right place but I have quite a lot of problems with family members and I've been reading through and have found some similarities.

Growing up it always felt like DM could only love one person at a time. Dsis was always her golden child. I have since found out that when I was born (I'm the eldest) that DM then shifted her love from df to me and their relationship broke down. In turn the love was lavished on dsis for my whole childhood. I was always the 'bad' one.

Recently DM has not been well, I've had to go round to help her a lot which has been stressful as she s so needy and in my face all the time about her symptoms etc and wants me to virtually be a slave. Things are fine if I comply but if I dare to have a break or sit down she goes mad. She has a long list of what she can't do which even includes picking up anything off the floor and washing up etc, apparently she's too weak (?)
Too weak except for when her new bf is available. If he's around or she's going out she's revitalised and feeling great and treats all of us like shit as if yet again she can only like one person at a time.
If she is out late/has a drink and calls the next day for help and I mention it she goes mad again but she's moaning that she's tired, well, of course she is if she was up late but I'm not allowed to say that she says its her 'illnesses'

I said the other day I couldn't help and why wasn't her bf? She was livid and said its down to her family not him.

Dsis is very similar to DM and sometimes can be an absolute nightmare, recently she had gone through my paperwork in my home and I felt violated as she relayed info to DM that was private, of course that got her a day or two back in the number one spot with DM but now DM has her bf she hates dsis again as well so everybody is just miserable.

I really want to go NC but I have such a guilty feeling if she asks for help I just don't know what to do

waitingimpatient you don't have to be responsible for her. I know it feels like you do, but you don't.

Does anyone else find upsetting seeing threads about 'normal' things that you don't have? Nice times with parents, etc. it all gets to me sometimes.

Thanks pocket and aussie. I know you are right. I suppose the people pleaser in me still wants to be able to be the better person, to have a clear conscience. And perhaps a tiny bit of me also hopes somehow she'll somehow see by way of my calm reasoned behaviour what she's done wrong, what she's losing, that she's in the wrong. But of course that's never going to happen. I need to stop replying, need NC to be exactly that. We'll be moving house in about the next 2 months so I might perhpas acknowledge nothing more (DD birthday in May, mine at the beginning of June) and use the move as an excuse not to be contactable via post at least. But you see, there i go again, justifying.
But I think I need to cut her off, because nothing's changed form her point of view, it's the same old bullshit as last summer.

peppermint yes definitely for me right now its about loneliness. I am resolved to get out there and join some groups and make new friends. Its harder to do when you are in your mid 40's, work full time and new to an area after separation.