Is our whole marriage based on this?

[WotchOotErAPolis]

Recently my DH and I have not been getting on very well (for last 3/4 years really). He has now started to say that he enjoyed it when we first got together as he thought it was funny that whatever he asked me to do, I just did (from putting the kettle on to things we did in bed). I'm at the stage where I am trying to be more assertive (it is new year after all!) and he seems to be reacting by saying that he liked me submissive. Is our whole relationship just based on him getting me to do things I'd rather not & me just doing it to avoid a confrontation? I have started to answer back or say no when he asks me to do something I don't want to.

I gave him a piece of my mind this weekend when he actually related that story in front of a close friend! I told him straight away that I was angry he'd said it in front of a friend and we'd discuss it later. The friend kept quiet thank goodness.

He works away 4days a week & quite frankly I don't miss him when he's away. Sometimes I don't look forward to him coming home as he will expect 'stress relief' (never referred to it as making love even in the early days) after he's then spent hours snoring in front of the tv, farting & shouting orders at the kids. Somehow I'm supposed to feel turned on when I go to bed at eg 11:30 & he comes up at 01.30 feeling randy.

How to stay assertive and how do i react to him when he tries to explain my assertiveness by telling me I "seem angry all the time"?

Maybe I should add that we've been married nearly 20 years and I'm not looking forward to the next 20 if this carries on!

I think the word "abusive" gets used a lot on here, not sure its always accurate.

OP - all/most people evolve over time, and hence the marriage (which is a combination of both parties) evolves accordingly. The problem when one partner works away, is that the evolution may not be synchronised (in deed one party may not evolve at all).

There are a couple of other dynamics to consider. Guys that work away, may work in a male dominated environment, they generally only have to worry about their own welfare and often get waited on (in hotels etc).
On the other hand the women that are the stay at home partner, generally have to become very strong. They have to deal with all the issues alone (children sick, noises in the night, car breakdown, house issues and the whole host of general life activities etc etc). Plus they also eventually develop a social circle.

You sound like you are nearing the end of the classic cycle (doesn't like husband being away, learns to live alone, develops own life, doesn't like husband coming home...the end). I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of work-away relationships that reached the Silver Wedding.
Incidentally your DH will be very aware of this cycle.

My advice; sit your husband down and explain that in 20 years you have obviously changed. You have obviously had to become a lot more assertive/independent etc, due to having to managing the house/children etc alone for 20 years. Tell him that him working away has brought about this change and this assertiveness/independence is not something you can "switch off" at weekends (you could always include that times have also changed). However the last word should be that he needs to change to the new situation. Then list your expectations (example - there is no more "stress relief"', if he wants to "make love", he has make you feel that you want to "make love"to him etc).

Only you can decide if failing to meet your expectations is a "deal breaker", but if it is, you need to communicate this clearly.

Good Luck :-)

In glad you're making progress. My fear for you is that if you are being more assertive then things will get worse still.

I'm glad youve found your voice and kniw your options. Knowledge is power and you have choices here, he doesn't get to choose for you.

DrM: you have touched on something quite important here in that although he is working afh now, this has only been since October/November. Prior to that he has been home based almost all the years we've been together and actually his behaviour has pretty much been the same right through. He has never shown any interest in helping me or supporting me.

I had cancer 10 years ago and whilst he worked from home, I still had to call on girlfriends to help out. This was OK I guess in that he did have to work during the day, but he didn't do much in the evenings, so it didn't really make any difference.

He never changed a nappy nor bathed the kids when they were little; never did any gardening (his excuse is that he doesn't know how to garden, but neither do I - i just strim everything that's overgrown & pull up anything that looks like a weed to me) and it has always been me who took heavy bags of garden waste to the dump. After I had recovered from reconstructive surgery to my chest, last July/August, I still had 6 skip bags of garden waste in the shed from 6 weeks before (when I went in to hospital) which prevented me from actually getting in, so I had to make 3 visits to the dump to get rid of it all, asking the kids to help me get the bags in the car and asking the dump workers to help me put it all in the skips.

So it's not the fact that he's working away that's changed things for me, but rather the fact that when he's away I feel so much more 'myself' that has accelerated me to do something about it. I also see my friends just getting on with life (no one is 100% happy so I'm realistic about that - hey I could have been dead by now - literally!) - a close friend has recently fallen in love and it's great to watch them having fun dating; another friend having recently divorced from her DH who was having an affair, is now dating again and moving on. I feel like I'm stagnating as I've tolerated his laziness and disrespect for far too long.

However, I would not use the word 'abuse' as I do agree it gets overused, but what I do feel is that we either have to come to terms and sort ourselves out, or agree to go our separate ways. I have been asked several times recently if I really want the next 20 years to be like the most recent 4/5 years and I can honestly say 'no'. On top of that right now the answer to the question "would you rather be alone and unhappy, or with someone and unhappy' I know what the answer would be. We have been together nearly 20 years so I do owe him the chance for things to change or at least discuss things openly with me, knowing that if it comes to divorce, I will be OK (practically and emotionally).

Joys mum: same applies! If I have found my voice at last and he doesn't like it, I feel happy with any outcome that might transpire. I have often said that having been divorced once (a very long time ago, & years before we met but he will keep reminding me of it) I didn't want to go there again, but equally, I don't feel the need to stay in a relationship that makes me so paranoid and unhappy. I can't stay in a marriage to prevent myself becoming a statistic.

OP - Sorry it sounds like your DH has been "absent" at least mentally for most of your marriage. He can't even use the excuse of being "old fashioned", as at least "old fashioned" husbands did the donkey work (lifting, shifting etc).

Again as above you need to tell your DH that there needs to be change, then tell him your expectations. Again I would communicate clearly the consequences on no change.

Good Luck.

How has your week gone wotch?

Sorry MN-ers [esp somethingtodo], I took a break after a bit of a reality check re another thread I started. After admitting I was being creepy about another relationship and deciding to drop the whole thing as insignificant & not worth wasting my time over, I still got a few spiteful posts. MN gave me the reality check I needed so I didn't need to be told again.

Back to the 'real issue' at hand here, I have spent a few sleepless nights trying to decide what to do next. After DH insisted I stay up on Sat night [until 2am] to do help him do his tax return before he flew to the USA on Sunday, I feel he hasn't taken anything on board and continues to treat me like a doormat. He had all of Friday and Saturday to do it, and had also said that he'd do it the previous weekend but sat around on the sofa not doing so. He knows I get tired and am almost comatose by 11:00pm so how he can then tell me I'm stupid and not getting the right figures out of our bank statements at that hour in the morning, i don't know!

He has also just spent a few £100's on a fancy guitar for my youngest son, whilst in USA, which he really doesn't need [just cheaper in the States and he can always sell it over here for a big fat profit - his reasoning, not mine].

My MS also noticed I was stressed yesterday - I had a msg from DH to see if I could try Skype-ing him [no problem with that - he misses the boys], but I wanted to get the dinner on to simmer at least, before trying skype, as I had been late back home and needed to feed the kids. I didn't realise at the time, but I was fussing and trying to do everything as quickly as possible in order to be able to respond to DH before his usual follow-up 'are you there?' text. MS told me to "calm down - he can wait" and I then realised that I am still being controlled by him unconsciously!

i ended up on the phone to the Samaritans last night as I can't sort out in my head what to do next and feel so anxious. I feel divorce is a real possibility as I just can't go on this way. I also want to try using the "will you come to counselling with me" gambit to see if he's willing? If he isn't then I can get the solicitors talking to each other.

I think you need to look into doing the Freedom Programme. Sorry haven't got time to do a link now but google it, you can do the course in person or online. It's made for women like you; your problem is that you are so disempowered now that you just don't see that you actually have choices. You don't know how to say no to your H, and that's what you need to learn.

I would really recommend doing the FP before you do anything else, it will make you stronger, and I would worry that if you start divorce proceedings now while you're still so controlled, you might lose courage half way through and then it will backfire on you.

Oh and don't try counselling with him! It's really not a good idea with an abusive, controlling partner.

TITD - thanks for that - I've seen the Freedom programme recommended by MNers on other threads, so will defo look it up.

Good point about counselling with him - I don't feel it would help as he might just see it as ammo against me in the future "remember when you took me to counselling..."

That's right, and also abusers/controlling men can be very good at twisting things around so that they present you as the unreasonable one, and not all counsellors are skilled enough to see through it.

So you could end up with the counsellor validating him (horror!) or if the counsellor does have the nous to validate you, that would probably make him very angry and he would take that out on you at some later stage.

All in all, you need to stop thinking about how you can change him, because he has absolutely no intention of changing, and focus on how you can change yourself, your self image, your reactions to him. Glad to hear you'll look into the FP and good luck with it!

One last thing - you have the right to say no to sex you don't want. Sex without consent is rape, and you have the right to withhold consent any time you damn well please, for no other reason than you just don't want to. If that is still an issue I urge you to prioritise it.

Things have moved on a bit - sorry this is a long one!

I have spent several nights now awake and crying. Ended up calling the Samaritans at 4am Thursday morning. I feel that I must move on - this waiting is killing me.

Latest development is that he is currently away in the US on business, so is 7 hours behind. He called me today [several times, as I had gone to the loo] while I was in the office, which is fine, as he wanted to hear my voice I guess and it's hard for him to catch me!

Trouble is, one of my colleagues told me my phone had rung, while I was then logging out to rush out of the office to meet a friend to go for a run. As I was already late, I was planning to call him back, once I was changed but he called me again when I was in the toilet. I answered it because I know he's in the USA so can't call at a convenient time, but had intended to say I'd call him back in a minute.

I said I'd call back in a bit but I was just in the middle of changing into my running gear. He continued talking to me asking questions about how work was going and had I sorted out the issues [with a report I'm compiling for work] that I'd been having the other night when he called. When I repeated I'd call him back in 5 minutes, he said no he wanted to talk to me now. I again that I was actually in the office toilet, getting changed and I would call him back in a bit, rather than call him from the loo! He insisted on carrying on the conversation and I then put the phone down on him.

I did call him back once I was dressed [by this time in the office reception area, which is still public]. He explained that he only wanted to speak to me as he wanted to hear my voice and make sure that I had fixed the problem with this report. I had to tell him that I couldn't talk about the report then as

a. it's confidential and I'd get fired if my boss found out I'd been discussing it with anyone
b. my boss was actually in reception with me, so I couldn't say anything in front of her anyway!

He kept on about the damn report, asking me to go into details about it and saying he'd help me fix it when he got home, which is OK really if he just wants to help. However, when he called earlier in the week, he had insisted on taking me through the report, asking me to explain the issues and what I was trying to achieve. I had said then that it was a pointless exercise as he can't see the report I'm aiming for; he can't see the database I'm using; he can't see the spreadsheet I use to compile the figures! I then got really angry but he now thinks it's just because the report needs fixing and he can't wait to get home to fix it for me; when in reality I was angry that he kept on about it, despite me saying there was no use wasting time trying to fix it over the phone from several thousand miles away! I then feel awful getting angry with him, as he's only trying to help [isn't he?].

On top of that, when I got changed after my run, I discovered that my engagement ring was missing and now I can't find it! I had been scrabbling to put stuff on the shelf in the toilet whilst talking/arguing with him on the phone in the toilet pre-run and although all my other jewellery was with it [watch, earrings, eternity ring], so was all in the same place, my engagement ring had gone! How bl$$dy ironic is that?!

My MS has noticed how agitated I am - I'd been trying to get dinner on to simmer so I could call DH. He'd texted me to say could I try skype-ing him, and then followed it up with a further text to say why hadn't I texted back yet. I ended up rattling the pans in my haste to get the dinner on so that DH didn't have to wait too long for me to call him and MS ended up telling me to "just calm down, Dad can wait"!

After all that - and re-reading it - why do I still feel so bad about asking for a divorce/split/whatever? In some ways I feel very rational in telling him how I feel and at least trying a trial separation, as I feel in my heart I must spend some time away from him [and not just 4 days a week while he's wafh], but can't shake off the feeling that I'm not being fair to him.

Help!

Balders74 - how are things now?

Oh god! After a weekend without any heating or electric (on top of losing my eng ring), DH comes back from USA today & fixes it in 10 mins by draining something that had leaked over the electrics & telling me he'd shown me how to do it but it should have been done in the summer & he'd not got round to it?!

I'd wasted 28hrs in the cold, with a diy-savvy friend spending two hours trying to diagnose why the boiler was shorting out the house fuses!

Now he's jet lagged & has an exam to do tomorrow (while the plumber comes to fix something that's caused the heating to run 24hrs a day for over a year & I've organised coz he couldn't be arsed!). I've also come down with a stinking cold so am pretty tired myself.

I thought I was all set for the "want a trial separation" chat & now I can't think when's the best time to do it (apart right now) as I dont want to risk his failing the exam and ruining the last week his company has invested in him & he's jetlagged so it wouldn't be 'fair' to do this to him just as he's got home?

OK - so I had the 'thinking of a separation' chat and now he seems to have changed a little? In respect of my lost engagement ring he has suggested that if the insurance company pays out [no reason why they shouldn't] he will take me into London to get a new ring from Hatton Garden "as we've been married nearly 20 years, maybe we should mark the occasion with a new ring to mark our next 20 years" - quite sweet really, so he is trying.

I have also told him that I hate him belittling me and have told him that I will not tolerate it any more especially as people have noticed that he does this in public and have voiced their concerns to me.

We also spoke about the fact that I feel very old [51 and very depressed about it - mid-life crisis stereotyped] and vulnerable right now [I had breast cancer 10 years ago and after several operations, have now lost my left breast altogether] and that I felt we have settled into a 'take each other for granted' relationship; whereas although he is also 51, he has landed a great job at which is he brilliant and has already been recognised for.

I told him how instead of being grateful that he fixed the heating within 10 minutes of his return from a business trip to the USA; having left me [as I saw it] with a boiler that needs regular draining [which it shouldn't] and telling me that he expected me to do it [I refuse to do anything involving water and electrics!]; I am actually angry that he left me in that position and left me and the kids with ho heating/electrics for >24hours on a freezing weekend.

We also discussed how I feel sad that a friend of mine has recently started going out with another of my friend's daughter and that makes me feel both delighted for them but old too and reminds me of how boring our marriage has become. We both need to respect each other more and try to re-find what brought us together 20 years ago.

He is still lazy and sleeps as much as he can get away with, but had an exam to do, which he got around to last night at about 2 in the morning! However, he had spent the day with my YS, at the track, as DS is an aspiring sprinter, so he's happy to be active when it suits him and I do enjoy that he is getting involved [I am a regular runner myself, but DH isn't at all interested in exercise, but is now involved with the athletics club as a timekeeper].

i feel that hopefully things are moving in the right direction, but will still need to keep firing rockets up his proverbial to make sure I stay a bit more in control of how I feel and keep talking to him [NB not nagging - talking!].

Wish me luck!

Needing a bit of strength! After a shit Valentines Day, which shouldn't upset me but did, I feel v confused. He bought me stupid presents, didn't tell me he loved me, didn't even hug me, but sex was ok.

Ended up taking the whole family out for a meal at an American diner where we were the only family group - all the others were couples. We hardly spoke to each other & spent much of the time trying to get the boys to stop bickering.

He said that he'd rather keep the insurance money for my lost engagement ring for my MSs university fees (he's 15 so a way in the future). Then said he'd buy me a diamond when he's over in India next month!

He didn't bleed the radiatiors, which was the only thing I asked him to do for me. He did spend 3 hours coaching my YS and two of his pals at the track on Sunday so that's great. I went for. a run myself with the dog while they were training.

Is he getting better & if so why am I still crying?

Beginning to think that maybe you just never find your soulmate & I ought to 'make do' as all this 'one true love' stuff is just sh@te isn't it?

I don't know about soulmate, you just need someone on your emotional wavelength. It doesn't sound like he is.

Just re-read the threads and all your posts. Everything in my head and heart says to tell him to go, but I still cry at nights.

Not sure what for -

the loss of a marriage relationship?
the feeling of fear if I end up alone for the rest of my life?
the fear of a big bust-up?
doubt that I have given him enough time/chances to change his ways?
enough time for me to change my ways?!

Why can't I feel settled and decide that I want to get out of this and just TTB!

Wotch, I feel for you. I don't really have any solid advice right now but didn't want to read and run. Did you look into the Freedom Program as a PP suggested?

In your shoes, I would be walking away with my three loving sons into a new life of peace and happiness. But I understand that after 20 years together this is a massive step for you.

I would just ask you to re-read two things:
he will take me into London to get a new ring from Hatton Garden "as we've been married nearly 20 years, maybe we should mark the occasion with a new ring to mark our next 20 years" - quite sweet really, so he is trying.
One week later:
He said that he'd rather keep the insurance money for my lost engagement ring

What are his actions (not his words) telling you about the value he places on your marriage?

and . Treat yourself kindly at the moment.

Hi witch, just read through your thread and although I have no good advice I didn't want to read and run. You just sound so low.
Actually perhaps I do have a small observation, you seem to be so uncertain what to do, what choice to make..yet you keep making THIS choice iyswim, youre choice seems to be ..to see if others will change, and every time you make that choice..they don't,
I very much believe if you do what youve always done you get what you've always got
and your surely not happy. So if you make the other choice..its 50% more likely you will be happy..if you make this choice again...well..I suppose its an unhappiness you are familiar with..

Sorry about spelling ( especially your name) ..need keyboard..& coffee...

Sorry but "stress relief"?? I can't believe you would entertain the thought of a man who says that in a serious way. A one off, tongue in cheek way fine, all the time no way Who does he think you are, a hole to w* in?

Aside from that, he sounds like a right loser that you're not that bothered about. Get rid.

Wotch I feel for you. Am in a similar place myself, but haven't posted.

I do think that it's a bit of a mid life crisis for us. We're coming to the end of being Mothers - we can see that the DCs will be leaving the home, 'D' H's are jet setting around the world, earning loads, being treated like royalty, barking orders, and expect the same treatment when they get home.

I often feel like I'm the domestic equivalent of his office life. It sucks... And I too, am starting to say 'No'. It hasn't gone down too well this end either. I'm not sure if my behaviour is changing due to the menopause, or if it's just that fact I'm struggling to see the next 18 years with this man.

I'm on my own 3 or 4 days a week, and life is much more harmonious and happy without him in the house.

So, no advice from me, but a large vat of sympathy and these

ishouldcocoa: I'm right there with you!

Today's complication is that the insurance people have agreed to settle and replace the engagement ring I dropped and lost [during an argument with DH - of course] - but for 1.5x it's insured value! Eek! I am a very lucky girl, but now I'm thinking what would I do with a replacement ring, if I'm about to tell him to leave?! Dearie me, it never gets easier does it?

However, I texted DH to say he needed to call me later re the ring and he phoned, listened for a few seconds while I told him what the valuation was [not realising he was in company] and he then announced he was in a meeting and would call me back later. He then followed up with two more texts back to me, neither of which confirmed that he had actually listened to anything I'd said! I did say for him to call 'later' - maybe I needed to say 'call me at 19:13 precisely'?

darkness: - I find copy/paste works better when I'm in need of caffeine in order to spell - seriously I do agree with the "if you do what youve always done you get what you've always got" sentiment. I am trying to change myself but am finding it's hard to think like that when the easier solution might be to find someone more in tune with me in the first place so I didn't have to fight my personality all the time?

After all, if he can't change, maybe I can't either? - that sounds like a real cop-out.