How to handle this?

[Idiotdh]

Today we went some distance to a school sports event ds was taking part in. They lost but good game and ds enjoyed it. Afterwards there was some food laid on for the players but dh asked if ds would rather wait and come with us for us all to eat together on the way home which dh had planned to do in about twenty minutes. Ds said ok, fine, said goodbye to team mates and teacher.

The conversation went like this.

Dh;Shall we go to main food joint and we can all choose there?( mainly McD, think there is salad bar and jacket potato place too)
Me; Yes, fine.
Ds; Yes please , Mc Donald's?
Dh;Junk food?
Ds ;There's not much else in that place, KFC a bit further on?( near home)
Dh;Ok if thats what you want?Dont you want to go shopping too?
Me; Happy either way we can shop if you want to for a while.
Ds ; not really, just want to eat. Can do for a while though.
Dh ; well we can't all just do what we want all the time can we?

Dh, suddenly indicates left off motorway. This is towards original place planned. Says 'Well I'm stopping here look there is a KFC here anyway.' Then continues to drive past KFC part to area closish to original venue planned.
Ds; Can we go there (KFC?)then?
Dh ;Stops car far from KFC near to original planned place (McDs) says'Do what you want, Im going to the toilet we can just go home as far as Im concerned '
'I'm not going to KFC ds can go there if he wants give him a fiver it's over there ( quite far, across roundabouts etc, not accessible by foot)
Me; Let's just go and eat together at main food place, ds is hungry.Its not fair to wait any longer.
Dh; shouts ; Bugger off then, we can just go home if that's what you want.
Dh walks off with car keys. Says meet you here in 15 mins. I say ok shall we get food or are you shopping now. Dh seems to mutter F off and storms off leaving us in car with no keys.
I get back in , say come on ds let's go get something, what do u want, ds shouts ' I don't care ' and bursts into tears and breaks his heart..have never seen him do this and he is a very placid child who just tries to please.

I feel incredibly let down by dh behaviour with this... All we did was try to agree a plan , ds did nothing wrong and dh just made it impossible no matter what ds said. I think he's been incrediblybadly behaved and really let ds and me down. I am shocked at how unreasonable difficult and rude he has been. I am so angry I have not spoken a word to dh since. After dh came back to the car he rapped on the window and barked' What are you doing I thought you would be ready by now' . When we got out he said to ds' You can't go out like that, with a bright red face'.

I took ds via the loos to McDonalds and was furious but just refused to react or argue. We (ds and I )got food. We went back to car and came home. I have apologised to ds on behalf of his father but can't explain it.

What is this all about? Is he an unreasonable bully? Is he on the ASD spectrum, because it is really hard to communicate with him, he just doesn't follow the flow of conversation then loses his temper..so is either being deliberately difficult and obtuse, or he has some sort of problem.

I know he has been completely unreasonable out of the blue and ruined everything.. But what do I say now. Do I tell him to apologise to ds and me? Do I tell him to get out?

Please can I have some advice. LTB may be the right advice, but these are sporadic incidents and ds will still be seeing his father regularly (and always wants to spend time with dad)if I do LTB so it won't necessarily solve the problem. As in, I have to make or try to make dh change this behaviour and apologise and display to ds he was in the wrong...if I don't address this properly now, even LTB isn't going to be enough.

LTB may be the right advice

That was from your OP.

Yes, LTB.

Every day you don't LTB your DS is being damaged. LTB.

Nervous of what?

Him leaving?

You leaving?

Violence?

He will not back down because he genuinely believes he has done nothing wrong here.

What has been happening here is all part of the abuse cycle but abuse like he is showing you and your son is continuous in nature. It will happen again and the wheel will again turn. He can and does do nice/nasty very well but all that is a continuous cycle.

Most abusive relationships display a distinct pattern, known as the Cycle of Abuse or Violence. Abuse is rarely constant but alternates between: tension building, acting out, the honeymoon period and calm.

Not all relationships follow the same cycle, and individual experiences vary, some stages - especially the honeymoon or calm periods, may shorten or be left out completely, especially as the abuse intensifies over a period of time.

TENSION BUILDING -
Tension starts and steadily builds
Abuser starts to get angry
Communication breaks down
Victim feels the need to concede to the abuser
Tension becomes too much
Victim feels uneasy and a need to watch every move

INCIDENT or "Acting Out" phase
Any type of abuse occurs
Physical
Sexual
Emotional
Or other forms of abuse as found in the power and control wheel.

HONEYMOON or Reconciliation phase
Abuser apologizes for abuse, some beg forgiveness or show sorrows
Abuser may promise it will never happen again
Blames victim for provoking the abuse or denies abuse occurred
Minimizing, denying or claiming the abuse wasn't as bad as victim claims

CALM before the tension starts again.
Abuses slow or stop
Abuser acts like the abuse never happened
Promises made during honeymoon stage may be met
Abuser may give gifts to victim
Victim believes or wants to believe the abuse is over or the abuser will change

I also feel for your son in all this because he is learning all too quickly here how to people please and in a home environment like yours is, this is very bad news for him. It is not a healthy way for him to function.

I would also be talking to Womens Aid on 0808 2000 247 as they can and will also help you here.

I would also be talking to Womens Aid on 0808 2000 247 as they can and will also help you here.

I know there is a problem , I don't feel I know how to handle it. I feel nervous he will escalate to more unpleasantness and manipulation that I am not equipped to deal with. I feel a small threat of physical aggression if I were to argue with him.

Attilla has posted the cycle of abuse there. Very apt.

OP, you say everything is ok as long as you back down to keep the peace. That isn't right.

He's been waiting for twenty years for me to apologise for being such an unreasonable person and all my other defects.

LTB

You can't say in the same minute why won't he back down and I'm not backing down. You need to take some action. Have an actual conversation instead of these two line bickerings. I mean do you really want to live with this for the next x many years? He sound awful and this is coming from someone with the heating off and who thinks the X factor is rubbish

I want him to apologise , if I back down , that is it, end of this incident.

That's a great post Attila.

Op, as others have said this is no way to live. You say that dh is a product of his childhood so it's up to you to break the cycle.

Vivacia's advice seems excellent to me.

"I don't think that the silent treatment is ever an effective way to behave. I think that a line in the sand is. Restate: "your refusal to take responsibility for your actions and apologise to DS and me has really made me think. I need some time to get straight my thoughts and feelings on this". Then Broken Record technique."

Just keep saying this over and over.

You must not engage with him at his level as he is just game playing and the same old patterns (drawn by him) will be repeated. As you change your approach and he is forced out of his comfort zone the 'stakes' may get higher and he will probably try harder than ever to make you feel that you are irrational, unreasonable and silly. If possible you should take some actual time away from your OH to decide what you want your future to be so that you can be very clear in your mind the face of the inevitable onslaught.

Goodness OP, I think you have potentially a turbulent time ahead, but I think that if you can face it then you and your son can finally live a life of peace and mutual respect. If you don't face it then things will carry on as they are, your son may grow into a man of his fathers mould and you may face a worse crisis further down the line. Please try to take some time to think what you want and need before your next steps.

Good Luck - we on Mumsnet are with you every step.

Just read the thread and, oh wow, this is my first husband!!

He would have a very set idea on how something should go ( a day out, and evening with friends...) if it didn't he would take it out on me in just exactly this way. His father was the same.

My advice. Don't back down. Wait for the apology. And if it doesn't happen, be ready to follow through with leaving him.

I cannot tell you, alongside all the emotional trauma of ending a marriage, what a relief it was when mine ended and how much it felt like I was coming out from under a cloud.

My thoughts are with you and your ds

I think you need to deescalate the situation, not by backing down and forgetting, but by realising it's not worth it. It's time to leave. This is who he is. There is no point giving him a month to change, no doubt he can be good for a month but this is his fundamental nature and it will return. You have more than enough reason right now to leave.

Take some time and think about it, could you and DS go see family for a weekend? And start figuring out what you would need to do to separate, see a solicitor perhaps. Talk to women's aid so you are prepared if things get nasty.

Basically trying to get an apology now is beating a dead horse. And it doesn't matter. What matters is getting him out of your lives, this is no way to live.

OP, do you want to spend the rest of your life apologising to this man?

he's been waiting for twenty years for me to apologise for being such an unreasonable person and all my other defects

Nice. Do you still think he is going to magically change after one month?

I say - again - get out now before it escalates.

Name change. I read your thread yesterday and couldn't respond because I was shaking so much

Thank you so much for posting this, and thanks to everyone who took their time to reply. Lots of great advice.

This all just sounds too familiar, and I am at a similar stage of seeing and understanding the damage but still being a bit paralyzed (fearful?) about way forward.

I had an incident like you described a few months ago; with DS (10) having trouble falling asleep over the unfairness of it all. Just like in your situation, all my DS expected was for his dad to do what he said he would do. Nothing more. It was heartbreaking. Won't go into the detail but very, very similar to your incident. I insisted that DH apologized but all he said to DS was that he (DH) was tired and DS should have done as he's told "for once". DH did talk to him, at length, but it was about how DS should have been behaving and nothing like an apology. DS is extremely obedient and accommodating and also self-conscious so this is both very unfair and very damaging to him. It breaks my heart.

We then discussed this at relationship counseling (ongoing thing) and DH went ballistic again, saying how I don't appreciate his efforts and I how I only see the negatives everywhere and create problems where none exist. Thankfully, the counsellor pulled him on it, pointing that this was only one thing we discussed, and I did talk about various positive things prior to this. (You would certainly question whether I did, if you listened to what DH said and how he said it). According to DH, DS is 'fine' and it's me who's having a problem getting over it. To DH it was a minor kind of event (not ideal, but that's life), something that you should forgive and forget. And I would - all that was needed for me to get over it was an apology.

Now DH had another nervous breakdown last week over kids and me using water elsewhere in the house when DH was in the shower; this was in the morning, just before school run. It's really beyond annoying when that happens as the pressure and temperature in the shower goes crackers - but, you know, people do brush their teeth in the morning and I've just put washing machine on, which isn't compatible with having a shower. DH went completely bonkers over it in the most inappropriate way. It was/is really scary how he reacted and I am still recovering. No physical violence directed at me/us but very out-of-control, scary behaviour. He's not talking to me since, and carries on as if nothing happened, and I'm gathering strength and considering my options. In the past I've always been the one breaking the ice (irrespective of who's in the wrong if anybody), but it's like going to war and I resent doing it more and more every time.

There is tons of history to this. Of course. It's been worse before, for sure. Last winter I was waking up to 12 degrees in the bedroom, because he needs fresh air to sleep well. This winter he sleeps on the floor in the living room (his choice). Guess where that leaves our sex life that he likes so much to complain about.

I just wish I could somehow explain how I feel in a way that he could take in. We had great times together in the past, and I can still see a glimpse of that now, every so often. I don't rule out that things can change. Some things have actually changed for the better over the last six months. And I kind of believe (or want to believe) that he's trying his best.

Does anyone think that separation could work in this case, and be a better option than burning bridges completely? And how do you put it in front of everybody (kids, DH, extended family) that things no longer work for us? There's no single event that drives this. It's a series of depressing episodes of 'he said this, I said that' that no one apart from a professional counsellor could really bear to listen to. Yet it leaves me unable to function for days, and I just feel that I'm losing my sanity...

When it is this bad, what option is left other than to give it up as a Bad Job ?

carry on as you are ? It sounds unsustainable to me.

Awful, just awful. Poor OP and poor child. Honestly, the relationship stinks- he is a cruel cruel man. Whatever you do, it won't be right. He is messing with your head and your child's head. He won't change, he really won't.

Thishastostop

You kind of believe that he's trying his best; blimey he has done a right number on you hasn't he?. Do you honestly believe that, is that what you tell yourself?. He has totally conditioned you now so that your already low self esteem is now completely on the floor.

Honestly you would be better off apart now and asap. You cannot go on like you are and this is really showing your son terribly damaging lessons on relationships.

Your son is likely aware also that his dad is choosing to sleep on the living room floor and wonders what on earth that is all about as well. He probably wonders of you why you have stayed to date. He will go onto wonder of you why you put this man before him in his childhood in later years if you do not act and get the hell away from your abuser.

I feel most sorry for your son also living in a warzone like the one he is also being subjected to.

The "nice" image you had of your man is just that, an image that will not return now no matter how much you try. That was him being nice to sucker you right in. This is the real him you are seeing now and he is actively enjoying seeing your discomfort.

Other people do not have to live with this man. You have done so and have seen the abusive reality of living with him. It is your absolute right to divorce him and asap to boot.

Joint counselling is never recommended in cases where there is any type of abuse present.

No more joint counselling as of now, instead speak to Womens Aid and make a new life for you and your son without this abuser in it. He will not be happy until he has completely destroyed your life and taken your son too down into his pit.

I think you should forget the apology. Even if you get one it won't be genuine.
My ex h was like this , anything and everything would turn into conflict. I think it's too easy to get caught up in who said what to who and why. Or to assume you are having conflict over Christmas , parenting or in laws ect ect.

With particular types of people you are having conflict simply because they want to. They actually engineer it and enjoy it. They don't feel upset by it like normal people do , they relish it. Olive branches are ignored and they deliberately keep it going. It will end when they say so and once they've had their fix. They call these people HPC , high conflict people. Plenty is written about them and it might be worth reading about to see if it sounds like your h.

Forget the apology and forget any issues about kfc. There was conflict because he wanted it. And he wants to keep it going. Consider how often this happens .

I have not long come back from work. Tonight dh took ds to KFC after school as he had a half day. Not sure what to make of that but I presume he felt guilty but couldn't demean himself to apologise.

I am civil and calm. Dh keeps trying to chat to me and made me a cup of tea. I think that is all very well but it doesn't solve the problem of how he was so mean but wouldn't admit it..and when that will happen again. And the fact that you just can't reason with him.

Idiotdh - please read and absorb the earlier post detailing the cycle of abuse. This is all you have to look forward to for the rest of your life if you stay with him. This WILL permanently damage your DS if not stopped asap.

LTB

LTB

LTB

LTB

Thank you for comments. He is behaving normally now if not more nice than usual, as if looking for my approval. I have not said any more about it. I asked and asked him to apologise and he was obnoxious so as you say there is no point now. None has been forthcoming anyway.
I have some money. Does anyone know if as part of the settlement I would have to give half to him?