How to handle this?

[Idiotdh]

Today we went some distance to a school sports event ds was taking part in. They lost but good game and ds enjoyed it. Afterwards there was some food laid on for the players but dh asked if ds would rather wait and come with us for us all to eat together on the way home which dh had planned to do in about twenty minutes. Ds said ok, fine, said goodbye to team mates and teacher.

The conversation went like this.

Dh;Shall we go to main food joint and we can all choose there?( mainly McD, think there is salad bar and jacket potato place too)
Me; Yes, fine.
Ds; Yes please , Mc Donald's?
Dh;Junk food?
Ds ;There's not much else in that place, KFC a bit further on?( near home)
Dh;Ok if thats what you want?Dont you want to go shopping too?
Me; Happy either way we can shop if you want to for a while.
Ds ; not really, just want to eat. Can do for a while though.
Dh ; well we can't all just do what we want all the time can we?

Dh, suddenly indicates left off motorway. This is towards original place planned. Says 'Well I'm stopping here look there is a KFC here anyway.' Then continues to drive past KFC part to area closish to original venue planned.
Ds; Can we go there (KFC?)then?
Dh ;Stops car far from KFC near to original planned place (McDs) says'Do what you want, Im going to the toilet we can just go home as far as Im concerned '
'I'm not going to KFC ds can go there if he wants give him a fiver it's over there ( quite far, across roundabouts etc, not accessible by foot)
Me; Let's just go and eat together at main food place, ds is hungry.Its not fair to wait any longer.
Dh; shouts ; Bugger off then, we can just go home if that's what you want.
Dh walks off with car keys. Says meet you here in 15 mins. I say ok shall we get food or are you shopping now. Dh seems to mutter F off and storms off leaving us in car with no keys.
I get back in , say come on ds let's go get something, what do u want, ds shouts ' I don't care ' and bursts into tears and breaks his heart..have never seen him do this and he is a very placid child who just tries to please.

I feel incredibly let down by dh behaviour with this... All we did was try to agree a plan , ds did nothing wrong and dh just made it impossible no matter what ds said. I think he's been incrediblybadly behaved and really let ds and me down. I am shocked at how unreasonable difficult and rude he has been. I am so angry I have not spoken a word to dh since. After dh came back to the car he rapped on the window and barked' What are you doing I thought you would be ready by now' . When we got out he said to ds' You can't go out like that, with a bright red face'.

I took ds via the loos to McDonalds and was furious but just refused to react or argue. We (ds and I )got food. We went back to car and came home. I have apologised to ds on behalf of his father but can't explain it.

What is this all about? Is he an unreasonable bully? Is he on the ASD spectrum, because it is really hard to communicate with him, he just doesn't follow the flow of conversation then loses his temper..so is either being deliberately difficult and obtuse, or he has some sort of problem.

I know he has been completely unreasonable out of the blue and ruined everything.. But what do I say now. Do I tell him to apologise to ds and me? Do I tell him to get out?

Please can I have some advice. LTB may be the right advice, but these are sporadic incidents and ds will still be seeing his father regularly (and always wants to spend time with dad)if I do LTB so it won't necessarily solve the problem. As in, I have to make or try to make dh change this behaviour and apologise and display to ds he was in the wrong...if I don't address this properly now, even LTB isn't going to be enough.

Nicky..he stormed off with car keys. I took ds to McD. And cookie from Millie's.

So is the situation in your OP a one-off incident? Or does he behave like an overgrown toddler at other times.

If it is just a one-off then I guess he's entitled to a bad day, but if it is typical of his behaviour then I agree that it speaks to a bigger personality problem that needs to be sorted out and he is BVU.

Your poor son.
The man sounds like a nasty bully.
I have nieces and nephews with actual medical diagnoses of ASD.
It's a bit insulting to start throwing that about like an excuse.

Yes, if you leave him your son will still him. But your son will also learn that being bullied is not something you have to accept, and not something his mother accepted for him.

He has a good job and is well thought of by clients as far as I know...he is not arrogant at the workplace ( we do not work together but I know his coworkers and he is very mild mannered afaik)

Cabrini...see above.

Iam right. I am always in the right. Others must always do as I say. Anyone who disagrees with me is in the wrong, does not respect my authority, and this is not acceptable. I do not apologise or compromise because I always have to be right and to apologise would be to admit weakness

Cogito I had to go NC with a longstanding male friend who exhibited these behavioural traits. That was a year ago and they haven't backed down from their appalling behaviour so I know that even though I have doubted my decision, it was probably the right thing to do.

IdiotDH it is likely your DH does fall into this camp!

daisy ..It is a sporadic incident. He always likes to have his own way but I am firm about the fact that that can't happen. If we agree with him, he is usually ok. If we disagree with him, he will try his utmost by hook or by crook to still get his own way but I stand firm( think heating on/ off, or what time of day to eat Sunday lunch etc)

This type of incident has occurred before when he is ' in charge' . Ie when he is driving therefore has more power.

He always likes to have his own way

His own way was to not stay and have the free food. Then when you all said yes he changed and changed and then it was all your fault even though you were all agreeing with him.

He sounds like a nasty bully to me.

Cogito .. Yes. He must be damaged by his own childhood and has learnt this behaviour most likely from his father.

I am not at all surprised he did not respond at all to your question posed earlier to him. Was expecting as much. I would also think his parents are and or were very much the same towards him as a child.

What do you want to teach your son about relationships here and what do you think he is currently learning from the two of you?. Both these thorny questions deserve your due consideration.

It appears your H does behave a lot better around outsiders which is also very telling of men who are at their core controlling men. It also shows that you and by turn your son also bear the brunt of his emotional abuse.

Your son won't lose his father if you did separate but it may well be that his father once separated from you would not want to maintain much of a relationship with his son. That would not be your son's doing. I could also see your H being extremely combative over any plans to separate as well, he will make every legal step in your getting away from him a trial.

Funky..Exactly so. We agreed with everything.

This may be still sporadic but it is likely to be happening now with more frequency. You may also have glossed over some other disturbing aspects as well and or have become conditioned to him (walking on eggshells is code for living in fear to my mind). How much of your own behaviour do you think you have yourself modified, do you try and pre-empt him?. It is all part of the overall abuse cycle here of power and control; this man wants absolute over you and your son.

If it's sporadic and if he is capable of being pleasant with people who he deems important... clients, for example.... then all the more reason to stand up to him when it happens and get him to apologise on the spot.

Also.... make sure that he fully buys into any decisions. There is a type of person who doesn't say what they want, expects others to pick up on 'signals' and then gets irrationally angry when they don't. As per the computer message when you're about to delete an important file..... 'are you sure Y/N'.... check understanding and then he hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Thank you for the intelligent and helpful comments on this thread. It is very much appreciated.

I don't really subscribe to the 'damaged by childhood' get out of jail free card. :) I think personality is reasonably fixed and we all learn various behaviours throughout life that enable that personality and/or feel right to us personally. A selfish person therefore chooses to adopt behaviour they see around them that gets them what they want and chimes with their personality. I don't think they see selfish behaviour and then suddenly become selfish as a result - too simplistic. If it were true, all parents would have children identical to them... and we all know that's not the case

We learn about relationships first and foremost from our parents.

He has likely learnt this from his parents; one or both were and are perhaps very much the same. It certainly does not give him a get out of jail free card. His childhood experiences at their hands also helped mould his personality but he has always had a choice in how to behave. He has chosen to act like he does rather than completely reject that behaviour. Many people indeed do have frankly awful childhoods and choose not to repeat the same with their own children. Whatever the root causes (the plural is deliberate), it is no justification or excuse for the ways in which he is behaving now.

He can still see his dad with you safely in another house OP.

It is him causing the problems, and I'd recommend getting away, merely because you will never win here. And that's outside all the other crap.

Psychologically maybe that's the case, but it doesn't really help the OP. His childhood has been and gone.... what can the OP do about it now? Nothing. Neither can he for that matter, and someone who thinks they are always in the right is not going to be queuing up for therapy.

So it's rather academic.

I'm glad you are at least considering LTB. I used to be your son, crying in the backseat when a parent got angry and aggressive for little reason -- it was really distressing, because you think it's all your fault somehow. It didn't happen all the time but it still messed me up quite a bit.

You say your son 'just tries to please' is this because his father is so controlling? Apologies if I read too much into that, it's just that was me too, trying to make the adults happy so there wouldn't be any unpleasantness. And again, that has had long-term consequences that suck.

I say this because I think one of the reasons to LTB would be to remove your son from this damaging dynamic your husband is causing. My own parents are divorced and it was hugely helpful in the long run to have a sort of 'normal' parent to balance out the dysfunctional parent, to show me a better way of dealing with life and people, which they couldn't truly do while still being together because they would always be trying to 'manage' the dysfunctional one.

I also think for your own sake, if you have to 'stand firm' on such banalities as when to eat lunch then it can't be much fun for you either.

Dreaming.. That is all very true. I am always looking out for ds as a priority, but to calm dh means that from the backseat it may still look( and indeed is) as if dh has all the power and still cause an uncomfortable atmosphere as happened yesterday. Because I can't really control dh.

No, you can't control him. And it sounds like you have to do a lot of 'managing', perhaps in ways you don't even notice anymore because you're just used to it. And I think that 'managing' is a really insidious thing for kids to pick up on, because it's not something that you should really have to do in a marriage or partnership. So you internalise this lesson that to be treated well, you need to placate other people, and if they are mean to you, it's because you didn't do it right.

Sorry, I don't want to project too much, just to say that this is one potential outcome of this kind of dynamic.

Cogito...I suppose I meant if he were treated unfairly, he has decided early on it doesn't matter what other people want, maybe it made him narcissistic? Or inadequate .
However, I am not a psychologist so enough of my cod psychology.

I have asked for apologies before and he has been unwilling to provide any, standing firmly by his actions and very defensive. However, if I were to tell ds off slightly ..maybe for being late to bed, he would be telling me not to tell him off..it's hopeless.

Not a team player in any way.

Hi OP,
I had an H like this. It is utterly confusing - especially as in the situation you describe in the car. The chain of events is very familiar.Especially that horrible feeling of being trapped in a car with someone being like this - there's an extra quality that makes it all the more intense and trapped. There is nothing you can do right. Cog is right - it's not a misunderstanding.

And trying to understand when and how they were damaged is a red herring in the end. The fact is you were subjected to this awful behaviour and he seems to think it is justified. It is unacceptable and unjustifiable.

Serious questions here... as you are having to modify your life (so is your son) around his unreasonable behaviour.

I'm of the view that when the emotional investment in a relationship is so disproportionate in terms of effort and one-sidedness (if that's a word to what the other person is putting in, it starts to feel like "can I really be arsed to put up with this any more?"

By all means, do all the right things, all the good suggestions being given here, but also consider whether the other person needs to really start showing strong near-term motivation themselves to make things better. If all the effort is only on your side, then it may be a busted flush (I have resisted the LTB reaction, but only just!)