SIL, DH and me

[odinsdaughter]

I don't really get on with SIL, and to be honest, I never have.

Its not that she's an awful person, or that i am, its just that I find her a bit bossy. I don't precisely know why she doesn't like me but I think the problem is she considers herself my social superior. Nothing about our feelings or opinions about each other has ever reached the other person's ears.

The problem is that DH is caught in the middle.

DH and I have argued over things she has done to me in the past. He doesn't like them, but he gets over them, whilst they just keep piling up in my mind.

One thing she particularly does, is call DH up to tell him to tell me not to do something, or to command me to do something. She will never deign to speak to me personally when she can pass a message through DH instead, even if its a direct reply to a message I left on her phone.

I also have a very strong suspicion that she's been putting the knife into me with MIL too.

Things have now deteriorated to the point where we only see SIL and BIL annually, usually for just three hours or so. Unfortunately, its that time of year again, where they realise that our two families not seen each other all year and its all "we must meet up before the year is over". DH usually sees her on his own once or twice a year, but not this year (because he was very hurt by a phone call she made to him complaining about me in the Spring - even though I had not seen her since December last year).

I always tell myself that i can get through 3 hours. But the truth is, it stresses me out beforehand and DH and I invariably fight about the situation either on the way there, or on the way back, or both.

I asked to be excused this year (any convenient lie would have done), so now we are not meeting them at all, as DH would not go with the DC on their own.

The thing is i can't imagine wanting to be around her next year either. or the one after that. However, I don't want DH to go years without seeing his sister.

I am worried that i am causing a family break up and that would be a terrible thing to do. However, I find it incredibly stressful to be around SIL. Often DH and I fight about it and it ends up with us both feeling bruised and battered, sometimes for weeks afterwards. I find it safer to not let her see any part of my life and I've no intention of ever contacting her again.

What would you do? Go see her and catch every passive-aggressive dig? Or take up smoking for occasion and start rolling my own in her sitting room with my muddy shoes on the sofa to prove her snobbery correct? Or tell DH that he on his own until she apologises to me personally for what she insinuated about me in that last call?

Forgot to add: another insightful guess on the part of many of you: Good SIL and Bad SIL do not get along well.

My Ils aren't people I'd choose to spend time with.

I do it for my husband.

But they aren't nasty/unpleasant to me!

I don't know my MIL. On the surface, I do. but I have never been able to work her out.

She comes across as incredibly sweet and quite meek, but she's from a time and place that doesn't exist any more. Its all stiff upper lip and never show how you really feel. Sometimes I think she really is as sweet and passive as she makes out, and then other times I see glimpses of a woman with steely determination and a sharp brain. So I don't really know who she is.

DH believes the sweet version though and wouldn't let any harm come to her for the world (hence last Christmas).

SIL dominates her and SIL is her favourite. For me, having favourites is a major black mark against any mother.

Hmm. I suspect that in that case if you get involved with the financial stuff, you'll stir up a bad hornet's nest.

It's probably better to step back, to draw your own lines as to what you'll put up with and what not and make it clear to your husband that him messing you around is not acceptable. Nor is expecting you to put up with that treatment at SIL's hands.

if lovely SIL and other SIL don't get on so well, do you know why lovely SIL suggests including other SIL for meetups?

Of course your husband is a good and kind-hearted person: enablers usually are. They aim to please.

The problem is that in order to please bullies, they let the bullies walk all over them, and walk all over their spouse and children too.

Being good and kind is fine. Bending over in front of bullies is not.

Enablers have a really hard time seeing the difference between the two.

Op - if I were you I would be utterly and completly ashamed of myself for withdrawing an invitation to my mother for Christmas day and leaving her on her own. Apalling thing to do. All so your dh would not feel guilty about his mother. Did you not feel that way about yours - because you should have.

Stand up for yourself. Tell your dh that if he does or doesn't see his sister it is entirely up to him but you are not.

Tell him that you made his mother welcome last year and that this year your mother will be made welcome. Where are his manners!

My first thought on last year's dilemma is that I would have invited them both. Both Grannies to entertain the kids while you prep the sprouts: two sets of traditions and anecdotes and probably a Christmas like no-one in the family has ever had.
On some level your DH knows that his family dynamic is unhealthy which is why he chose you: your nice SIL sees it and lives far enough away to be out of it. Your poisonous SIL is the issue, whether or not your MIL is 'in on it' is by the by as clearly they have all enabled her for so long.
Take the lead and do the hosting: then you can smilingly pull SIL up on anything rude she does. Tinkly laugh,. 'Oh I know you don't realise what you are saying but honestly you are so rude/vicious so please do try'.
Your DH will be able to stand up to her with your help. You are the strongest person in this situation, and can be pivotal in resolving it for your DH's sakeby supporting him and demanding that he supports you. Doormatting for your SIL has not worked, and avoiding will not work.

About Christmas last year...

MIL is housebound. People go to her because she only leaves in an ambulance.

SIL suggested we ask MIL to invite DM. DM would've hated that. I would've hated that. DH wouldn't have enjoyed it very much either giving how keen he is to have everyone connected with him follow these unwritten rules. It was a recipe for disaster. Then i tried to work out how to physically get DM to MILs house to stay for a few days and home again. I realised that it was nigh on impossible, so after that it wasn't worth thinking about.

However, I still hadn't agreed to go to MILs house. We fought on and on. In the end, I gave in. Yes, I am very ashamed of it. DM was invited to my siblings homes, but she didn't go. Knowing she had other options made me feel a little better, but not much especially when she did not take up her other offers.

An enabler...
What is that, exactly? I have heard the term before but I don't understand it.

"Enabling can take many forms, but most of them come down to protecting someone from the consequences of his or her poor choices." taken from www.wisegeekhealth.com/what-is-an-enabler.htm

In your case your DH is protecting your SIL from the consequences of her rudeness by not pulling her up on it, by sweeping it under the carpet, by kowtowing to her demands and insisting you do it too. By you refusing to play along he is having to face not only his sisters behaviour but his as the enabler, not a nice thing to have to do, especially if that is learned behaviour going back to when he was a small child "Dont upset your sister, you know what shes like...."

...and instead of facing his sister's behaviour (and his own), he is instead turning on you and trying to get you to back down. Because if you back down, then his and her dysfunctional behaviour can continue.

I could have written this, mine is horrid to.

We had a party at our home a couple of years ago, I had bought a lovely new dress and was happy with how I looked. I opened the door to SIL who looked me up and down before saying 'you didn't tell me it was fancy dress, what have you come as'

It's almost every time we see her (which isn't very often) that she will make some cutting remark. Another party which was to be held in our garden so for safety and to make life easier we bought some plastic glasses and plates. When offered a drink she went inside to get a proper glass saying she didn't drink out of plastic and why was I being so lazy!

She even made a disparaging comment about my wedding dress, right before the wedding and to my face!! Better than the ex-mil though who through a glass of red wine over my white wedding dress because I had stolen her son!

DH says to just ignore her but she bloody well winds me up!

She 'threw'' a glad of red wine!

Better than the ex-mil though who through a glass of red wine over my white wedding dress because I had stolen her son!

You win, cavkc!

OP, you say you need to lose some weight, as does your SIL. I have to say that nothing would make me lose weight faster than the thought of turning up at her front door wearing a size 10 dress.

odins, enablers often end up so secondary to the more dominant person that they allow the dominant one to behave terribly to everyone else, as well.

That is particularly awful when children are involved.

For instance if an abusive partner intimidated their wife /husband (we'll say husband here, thinking of the situation I saw at close hand) then the husband ends up not speaking up and standing up for themselves. The wife got worse and worse and started with physical violence too. The husband did not intervene to protect the children so they received a HELL of a lot of verbal violence and some of the physical violence too.

The husband was the enabler here. Because he tidied up after she threw thigns, he tried to say nice things like 'she didnt really mean it' and 'she's ill' after she told the children they were whores etc. He enabled her bad behaviour because he didn't stand up to her and instead said 'yes dear' no matter how unreasonable she was.

In your case because yoru husband deliberately won't see how nastily your SIL can behave towards you, he is enabling her to behave badly. If he stands up to her and tells her it's not acceptable, he will no longer be enabling her. She'll know she can't get away with it.

I feel sorry for enablers becuase a lot of it comes from fear. But the point comes that afraid or not, you have to stand up to bullying to protect the people around you.

I'm sure your SIL is as horrible as you say.

I do have a wee bit of sympathy with her over the last Christmas though. She usually spends it with housebound MIL, it's become a routine. There are two other children in the family. Last year she decided it was about time someone else did a turn. She also suggested that your mother could come along as well. I don't think that's so awful of her. It's not fair for one child to be expected to do things like this every year. She wanted a different Christmas - you and nice SIL get to pick what you do every year (NOT be with MIL), so why can't she do that for once?

Also, if one mother had to be disappointed, I too would think it should be the mobile mother who could go somewhere else or found other options, not the mother who is housebound and had no options.

Personally, I wouldn't go. Not worth the stress of having someone who makes you feel this way in your life.

I cut SIL off last year after 20 years of her shit. DH still sees her occasionally when she's over (she lives away) and I'm fine with that. As long as she never darkens my doorstep we'll be just fine. I cut MIL out back in September, she's where SIL gets it from and after a particularly nasty comment about me to my teen DD by MIL with SIL there presumably egging her on I thought to hell with it.

Life is too short to put up with crap from anyone.

Such a good, kind hearted person that he let you UNINVITE your own mother for Christmas? Yeah, right ...

I could've written your post OP. I've been to counselling with DH over my IL's and it's mainly the SIL that causes the most upset for me..superior, bossy, it's the same. In my experience, they'll side with their family and possibly feel you're causing trouble by being awkward because they can't see the faults in their family themselves.
I've let DH take the DC's on his own apart from christmas and important things which are few and far between. I have to stay overnight for a few nights and it's REALLY hard. It probably is embarrassing not having me there but I don't care and I've told dh that it's either that or almighty arguments and I know what he'd rather have.
On the occasions that I have to stay, I keep my distance as much as possible and I'm polite and bite my tongue. There's not much else you can do really apart from split up! I nearly went that way but at the last minute I decided I married my DH for him, not his family and I won't have them splitting us up.
You could try counselling with your DH just so that you both see things from each others point of view. Otherwise, just be overly nice. It always wins and will make her look stupid.

I really really disagree with the advice to be overly nice to this sil. Being super nice to bullies doesn't work when your a kid in primary school and it doesn't work when your an adult. The Op is already in a weak position by having tolerated the phone calls and comments. The situation has developed because the sil is a bitch and the Op has understandably felt unable to assert herself.

So your Christmas situation was:

1. Leave your MIL on her own
2. Leave your DM on her own and cancel an existing invitation.

Of course the existing invitation should have been honoured, particularly as the result for each woman was the same. Why is his mother more important than yours? And why did you let his huff dictate what happened? That he now still huffs about your mum coming this year is utterly ungrateful and makes him sound like an arsehole to be honest. He should have been full of apologies and should be an extremely welcoming host this year to make up for his appalling behaviour last year.

As for whether he can visit his sister, of course he can, he's a big boy. He can go on his own. As others have said, the reason his family don't argue is because he sweeps so much stuff under the carpet and there's so much he doesn't pull his sister up on. Not healthy.

Everything SIL does is cloaked in the mantle of her being a mother hen to the family. Including, and especially, when she delegates responsibilities to the others.

She speaks with a breathy, buttery sweetness (that irritates the hell out of me). Even when she passed the platter to me, she made it sound like her only motivation was to make sure I was being taken care of.

She never gives me anything to do directly, but only jointly with DH, whom she always speaks to directly. Even if I answer the phone, she will ask to speak to him to request that we leave our family car behind, hire a people carrier at our expense and collect x from the airport to take to a family event. DH always and instantly agrees. (I am not on the call, so I don't know whether she asks or tells but it is irrelevant when he'll jump to do it anyway.)

When she called to say those nasty things back in the Spring, I actually answered the phone but she asked to be passed to DH, rather than ask me to explain myself.

DH is normal and reasonable the rest of the time, except when his family is involved, they take priority. So, DM spending xmas alone came into that category. He fumes now when I mention it because it reminds him of my stance on the matter last year - I did not give in gracefully - and he feels I am overly assertive about having her this year.

SIL never called back to check us going to MIL was agreed btw. She only called once. I could hear the conversation and interrupted to remind DH that my mum was already coming. Her response was that DH should ask MIL to invite DM too. Then, job done, the call was over and we didn't hear from her again until the winter was over. Having taken on the role of deciding who did what for Christmas, she never called to check that we'd been able to make it work. So much for her concern to make sure everyone was ok!

OK odin You do not have a SIl problem you have a DH problem.

DH is normal and reasonable the rest of the time, except when his family is involved, they take priority.

And who are you exactly if you aren't his family? I think you mean he places his birth family as a priority over his nuclear family? NO way would I tolerate any more of this shite from him. I would tell him he can make whatever arrangements he likes with SIL, MIL but that he does not have authority to speak for you and that you reserve the right to so "No, that doesn't work for me" to anything he agrees with them, and it will be up to him to backtrack and resolve any issues.

All he has to do is say to SIL, "I will have to speak to Odin and get back to you." He just doesn't give a fuck though does he?

SIL never called back to check us going to MIL was agreed btw. She only called once. I could hear the conversation and interrupted to remind DH that my mum was already coming. Her response was that DH should ask MIL to invite DM too. Then, job done, the call was over and we didn't hear from her again until the winter was over. Having taken on the role of deciding who did what for Christmas, she never called to check that we'd been able to make it work. She didn't have to call back. Did she? Everyone just jumped to it and did her bidding.

Her response was that DH should ask MIL to invite DM too.

Erm, if your mother was already coming, then IF your husband wanted to ge he would have said 'we are already hosting Odin's mother, so we all be coming over if we come at all'.

Why is it you and your family that are always erased out of the picture when SIL pipes up?

You don't enjoy and your hubby not fussed with you going there. It's not your issue or your responsibility to keep his family together. I wouldn't go. You'd have to bribe me something pretty serious because I just wouldn't enjoy myself. You won't be missed, other than to be bitched at behind your back so whats the point.? Who exactly is gaining from your presence?

Its a no from me!