Prostitution and adultery

[TwentyBore]

Ethical question:

I have a question on the matters of prostitution and adultery which is interesting me and perturbing me at the same time.

Why is it that various aspects of prostitution are criminalised whereas no aspects of adultery are illegal? This disconnect makes no sense to me at all and strikes me as very unfair to women, especially to working girls.

Here is the logic:

• Adultery involves (inter alia) breaking promises, lying, cheating, wrecked families and utter misery.

• Prostitution involves the exchange of agreed services for cash between consenting adults and there is therefore a degree of honesty about it completely lacking in adultery (provided there is no coercion or trafficking involved of course).

Were I a newcomer to this world, I should conclude that adultery should be punished far more harshly than any form of prostitution.

The criminalisation of aspects of prostitution seem to place the working girls involved in a far worse position socially than any adulterer, but do working girls really do as much damage as adulterers? I conclude that they do not and for any working girl to get a criminal record for their profession strikes me as manifestly unfair to them.

In short, I regard it absurd to punish any form of prostitution without first punishing all forms of adultery.

I would be very interested in a polite and respectful debate.

Gosh the thread moved a lot while I was typing. Solar that's horrible and I hope you are okay.

I'm sure you know also pocket that it's possible for someone to embrace being used by other people because that's all they know - they don't expect to be treated with kindness and respect and for a touch to be loving rather than exploitative.

I work with women involved in street prostitution.

I think a distinction needs to be made, in terms of real harm done, between the 'indoor' and 'outdoor' market (sounds grim I known but that's what they are known as in the industry )

'Indoor' sex workers, providing they aren't trafficked, are considerably safer - they often have bouncers on the doors of massage parlours, a friend in the next room, and someone who knows where they are. (personally I have a huge problem with the idea of sex of a commodity, but at least this model is marginally safer for the women involved)

The 'outdoor' market is fucking grim. Sorry, but it is. Street sex workers lives' are hell on earth. I would consider any man who has bought sex to be fundamentally odd in his view of women, but men who buy sex from street sex workers are the lowest of the low. Of the women I work with, all but one are addicted to class a drugs and/or alcohol. All but 4 have a history of living with domestic violence either from family or partners. The women I work with are raped on a regular basis - I'm talking weekly. Many have mental health problems.

Basically, it is patently obvious to anyone who meets the women I work with that they are doing this out of addiction, desperation and misery, and are in NO STATE to give meaningful consent. The men who buy them are shits who don't care how vulnerable they are, they don't even want to pretend that these women are enjoying the experience. They do not see these women as human beings.

Given the choice, I'd rather my partner cheated on me by having sex with a person they had a mutual attraction to than with someone who they paid to wank into.

Hmm, I don't know, Cailin. I certainly agree that someone who doesn't feel they have much choice about their work is going to be damaged mentally by repeatedly doing something that they don't want to do.

However I think for people who do choose the profession and feel that they are in control of the "transaction" (for want of a better word) and are an equal participant, that can be healthy.

I don't think that's what's healthy for one person is healthy for all others though. It's not something I would personally want to do as a career.

KnitFast, it's good to hear from someone with direct experience working with people on the street.

I'd be interested to hear what you feel would be a good way to help those women?

twentythree9teen

"> Ditto, nobody in school decides they'd like to be a prostitute as a career. It's something that's a last resort.

This is a very emotive point, but the same is true of accounting. "

Please don't compare prostitution with accounting - it's hardly funny!!!

I'm not going to quote stats or link to sites but

Some years ago now I worked for a charity helping street prostitutes in a large UK city.
We offered them health checks, benefits advice, counselling.

ALL of them had been in some sort of abusive relationship prior to becoming a prostitute.
You couldn't do it otherwise - your barriers, your Fear and sense of self protection would be too high.
Even the high end 'call-girls' talked of how their 'Fathers had shown them how to be attractive to rich/powerful men / how to behave / what to talk about etc'

Pocket, what I don't get it is this. We accept that it's a pretty universal human characteristic to be private about our genitals, and to be pretty picky about who gets to touch them and see them. They're sensitive and susceptible to injury, plus as we get older we attach and emotional importance to the sexual element of allowing people to touch us - it's all very highly-charged. One bad sexual experience, even if it isn't rape, can be quite damaging because of the vulnerability involved. Women, particularly, feel vulnerable in a sexual situation given the fact that their partner is generally taller and stronger and is penetrating them rather than the other way around.

So, all in all, sex is a tricky experience, with a lot of opportunity for things to go wrong and for feelings and bodies to be hurt, even in the best of circumstances. We accept that anyone who experiences unwanted touching or rape will likely suffer - they will be at the very least upset, and often traumatised. Sexual interaction is not a simple thing.

Yet, you (and others) are arguing that there are people out there who have absolutely none of these feelings. They don't feel vulnerable, they don't need to know and trust a person before letting them see, touch and penetrate their genitals, they are fine with someone coming along with power over them (in terms of the money transaction) to choose what to do to them.

IMO a person who professes to genuinely not mind being paid to have sex they don't genuinely want with someone they don't know, worries me. I wonder about their psychology and what mental gymnastics or what experiences brought them to that point.

I also wonder why they would choose such a low status job, a job they can't chat about to their children's teachers, a job that society will tell them makes them a worthless whore.

cailindana - I work in the ME, I do not live there. Yes I have seen numerous examples of extreme sexism. Too many to mention, too sad to mention.

YonicScrewdriver - OK I get it.

Solar - I don't know if it helps, but your partner never chose her over you. You say "they need to experience that heart shuddering moment you realise your supposed loving partner chose a over used worn out vagina over you."

He thought he could both, he would never have picked her over you.

As a somewhat silly example - there's a huge problem with women not attending smear tests because they can't bear the thought of opening their legs and having someone stick a speculum into their vagina. That's in a safe, comfortable situation, with a kind and friendly health care professional who is there to help, and the smear is beneficial. Yet, women have to be convinced to go and do it, because, as we all understand, having someone put something in your vagina, even if it's for your own good and it won't particularly hurt, is a psychologically difficult thing to face. It makes you feel embarrassed and vulnerable. Some women genuinely fear it. We don't think those women are silly, we understand entirely where they're coming from because you know what someone sticking something into your body really isn't nice, and someone sticking something in your vagina is particularly not nice.

Yet, again, there seems to be a need to believe that there are some healthy, psychologically fine women in the world who will happily go into a room with a man they don't know and without any qualms allow that man to put his penis in her, and feel totally ok and safe in that situation. That man could be violent, on drugs, carrying a weapon, have a disease, he could intend to really hurt her or kill her, she just doesn't know. And yet, she feels no fear, no disgust, no vulnerability. She is some sort of automaton who is absolutely fine with that hugely dangerous and vulnerable situation.

WTF?

Cailin, as you know I have a history of abuse, so I know where you're coming from.

Yet, you (and others) are arguing that there are people out there who have absolutely none of these feelings. They don't feel vulnerable, they don't need to know and trust a person before letting them see, touch and penetrate their genitals, they are fine with someone coming along with power over them (in terms of the money transaction) to choose what to do to them.

But many, many women go out at the weekends and have one-night stands with men they've met an hour ago. (And the men do the same.) Is this risky behaviour? Yes. Do people who appear mentally healthy still do it? Yes. From a woman's point of view, there is no control via money, but in most cases the man could easily overpower her physically. In fact I would argue that for a high end escort the risks are probably lower, if they have a security guy.

Again - this doesn't apply to street prostitutes, who really have zero control over the situation, often don't control their own money and usually feel/are forced into the life.

Thank you Cailin for taking time to reflect your views on this topic, you have done so much of a better job than I could because I generally run out of patience with people who think that anyone could arrive at the decision of being a prostitute working inside or outside without some seriously fucked up thinking going on in the background. I also lose patience with men comparing it to any other service available and finally I get really bored of people who consider it patriarchy to oppose prostitution but miss the point of the sheer untold misogyny that is paramount in keeping the whole prostitution industry going.

I don't get the comparison between prostitution and one night stands. A person has a one night stand because they're horny and want some sex, and they find someone who fits the bill. They go out and choose that person and take that person back for some fun. It's a social interaction. No money changes hands. There is danger there, but the power differential isn't one of client/service provider, it's two people looking to have a laugh. A relationship might grow out of it, heck two people on a ONS might eventually get married.

Prostitution is entirely different. A prostitute is paid for sex. She might not want sex at all, but she goes ahead and does it because it's her job. There's no mutual attraction there, it's a service transaction. There's no sense that a relationship will spring out of the transaction - that's not what it's about. It's about one person paying another for the use of their body.

The two situations are absolutely not comparable.

Exactly, Cailin.

When a prostitute is in a room with a client, the one thing he knows is that she is not freely and enthusiastically consenting and that is OK with him - and possibly even additionally arousing for him. He knows that he is buying her consent.

Not the case in a ONS.

The psychology of the prostitute/client situation is so immensely fucked up I can't see how anyone can be ok with it.

In its baldest terms a man wants to put his penis in a vagina, any vagina, so he goes out and find a vagina and pays the owner to use it. Never mind that that vagina is attached to a living, breathing person. Who cares about that?

How do we think it's ok that there are men in the world who can see women like this? As an appliance with a handy vagina for him to rent?

I think maybe cailindana your problem is that you assume ALL client-prostitute interactions are like that, when in reality only some of them are.

In addition to what pocket has written, there's a prostitute currently taking part in one of the threads on the feminism board, saying much the same thing: That she's chosen her work freely, quite enjoys it sometimes and doesn't mind it the rest of the time; her clients are generally pleasant easy-going people who treat her OK; she doesn't accept any clients she feels unsure about, etc. etc.

As always with the internet, we don't really know who anyone is, so whatever. But neither hers nor pocket's posts are the first time I've heard or read this, so I'm forced to accept that it is something that exists, at least in some subsection of the prostitution industry. I don't know how large that subsection is and how it compares to the scale of people living out dreadful lives of addiction and abuse. I wouldn't even presume to guess, because I just have no idea.

But I think one problem is with the common emotive lietmotif of "buying a woman's body". (At least you're a little more honest and call it "renting"). Essentially, in terms of how a client-prostitute interaction is supposed to work, above the table, this ISN'T what happens. The client buys certain services from the prostitute. Those services are negotiated, defined and limited, and absolutely nothing gives the client any right to just "use her body" ANY way he likes because of it. (He can't just pick her body up and throw it in front of a car, for example).

The problem of course is that with the industry being highly private, subject to public shame and subject to legal restrictions that make it harder for workers to protect themselves, the attitudes of some punters and the interactions they have do spill over from the limited service to being more like complete possession of an object. This is utterly heinous, should be deplored and fought against by any means possible.

But it's not inherent by definition in the fact of the interaction taking place. I'm not saying that because it's my opinion, but because that's what some people actually involved in it seems to say: that they are able to have interactions with their clients where those negotations and limitations are respected.

Are you saying that it's prostitutes that perpetuate the problem? Wtaf?

No, I'm saying they are part of the problem. And allowing them to solicit unhindered whilst penalising only those that buy from them doesn't solve the problem. It's crazy.

Wackadoodle I have heard the same stance re a working girl making a free choice and being happy with her choice in relation to sex work. I have no doubt this woman was telling the truth and she put her perspective across extremely well. My assertion is that she is the minority of sex workers. The vast majority have undergone some psychological conditioning along the way that has left them feeling that renting their vagina to men is the best option for them. Some have undergone serious psychological damage to get to that perspective and others have undergone less but still are damaged by past experiences.

This is why I am an advocate for the Swedish model. Let that rarity of a prostitute make her decisions but do not condone men buying money for sex when in the vast majority of instances this is happening in a coercive manner.

Men paying money for sex even

Wackadoodle, if prostitution can be such a nice service deal between nice people, why are there so few men offering sex for sale to women?

Google "how to be a male escort for women" and you'll find hundreds of men who want to do just that! There is a whole scam industry around taking "agency fees" from men who want to become escorts and then never sending them any clients, because female clients for men are very few and far between. Perhaps because most women require an emotional connection with a partner; because it feels more shameful; because women can generally find a random sex partner for free; because it's too risky - I'm sure there are lots of reasons.

Have a look at this site:
Gentlemen 4 Hire
Chock full of guys paying £10 a month to "advertise" and in fact it's obvious that most of them just want a hookup and casual sex.

Have a look here, too:
Male escort scams

Hmm, think I'll take your word for it!

For one, I personally can't imagine buying consent and for two, I can't imagine risking sexual assault buying such a service. Isn't it like women being told "tell someone where you are if you are off on a blind date or internet date" - but multiplied by a thousand because you'd presumably be meeting in private?

So, women don't have sex with men they don't know (even when they want the sex and are paying for it) because they need an emotional connection, because they find it shameful, because they can get sex for free and because it's risky. All good reasons. So why don't those reasons apply to the happy prostitutes? What it is about them that means, unlike other women, they don't need an emotional connection and don't find it shameful or risky to have sex with multiple unknown men?

Wackadoodle, if prostitution can be such a nice service deal between nice people, why are there so few men offering sex for sale to women?

Because women aren't buying. There can only be as many people offering a service as there are potential clients for that service, or all those offering and getting nowhere will give up and do something else.

I'm not sure what other reason you think there might be. You've only got to go into any bar or club late on a Saturday night to see how many men are extremely willing to have sex with women they don't know without being paid for it, let alone with. And poverty, hunger, addiction, abuse, need to support children - all the things that lead some women into prostitution out of desparation, also happen to men. Some of those men end up starving and freezing to death on the streets. I find it unlikely that at least some of them wouldn't be willing to make a living by having sex with women, if the opportunity existed for them to do so.

Indeed some of them do make such a living by having sex with men.

So, women don't have sex with men they don't know (even when they want the sex and are paying for it) because they need an emotional connection, because they find it shameful, because they can get sex for free and because it's risky. All good reasons. So why don't those reasons apply to the happy prostitutes? What it is about them that means, unlike other women, they don't need an emotional connection and don't find it shameful or risky to have sex with multiple unknown men?

Well clearly we're talking about a continuum here, not a black-and-white difference. Plenty of women DO have sex with men they don't know, it's just that on average they're more reluctant to do so than men. A small number of women DO even pay to do so (I've no idea how many, but we know that male prostitutes for women exist). Similarly shame affects different people differently, and will obviously depend upon the values of the individual involved.

You can't understand the mentality and actions of every individual by talking about averages and generalisations.