DH giving money to PILs after agreeing not to

[slatersrow]

NC. My PIL have frittered away every penning; sold their house, crap businesses, first class travel etc and now insist on living free in my BIL's holiday house and demanding an allowance from other BIL.

They have lots of china, jewellery etc that could be sold but won't. They have been made bankrupt several times.

My DH and his brothers are scared of their DF who is a bully, so easier to give him money and sweep all difficult conversations under the carpet.

My DH and I agreed a long time ago that we'd be supportive but detached and that he would not give them money.

I discovered last week that he's been paying them an allowance. I'm upset and hurt he has gone behind my back and have no idea how to approach this calmly or what resolution I should hope for?

If there is fear of them involved he needs some counselling to overcome the childhood anxieties as most people would be able to stand up to their parents when they reach his level of seniority and independence

Yes, I think this is the crux of it.

I don't know how he will get there as he really thinks this is ok and normal family behaviour.

"X posted, but you need to approach this all with care and get him help. It may be total detachment from his parents and /or brothers.

If he is as fearful as you say, helping him overcome this is more important than the money involved".

I would agree with you wholeheartedly NoMarymary re your above comment.

This is indeed "normal" behaviour to him because he has been raised to accept this as such. Inbuilt conditioning from dysfunctional families is very, very hard to undo totally.

I have had a lot of counselling about my own family and as a result am completely detached from my sister.

My DH is totally freaked out by this and does not understand how I can behave like that 'to family.'

He honesty thinks that being in an unhealthy family is safer than going alone without the dysfunction.

I have thought about going to see them alone and saying they need to sort themselves out financially and if they take responsibility we will support them.

I think everyone involved would die of shock.

I suppose it's an option to have up my sleeve. I'm worried that some money will turn into a lump sum and then a car then another house. It's not an unrealisable worry going by past history.

At least discussing the situation here has taken some of your anger away and discouraged you from going in all guns blazing. You know that would be counter productive. It's getting him into counselling which is going to be difficult. Regardless if he continues to subsidise them the important thing is he achieves some emotional distance that will allow him to distance himself.

As Cog advises read the books yourself to see just what he is facing and take it from there.

I would want to be focusing my energy on my DH rather than the money or the parents, so if there is a counsellor who can help you approach him in the right way this could be a start.

Inclined to say move to the other side of the country/world as physical distance works wonders for breaking emotional links!

Sadly, he will only address his issues and his behaviour if he sees a need for it: it's not something you can "help" him with if he is not willing.

The only thing that might get him to address this is if he has strong motivation. Ie. you make it more uncomfortable for him not to tackle this, than to continue with his ingrained and learned behaviour towards his parents.

What stand can you take that will put him in this position?
Bearing in mind that you may not get the reaction you want, and that he will forever continue to place his dysfunctional relation with his parents above respect for his marriage and his spouse.

This sounds like my dad's family - all tiptoeing round their horrible parents who loved nothing better than telling one of their children that their sibling had said/done something awful and therefore causing world war 3. They're both dead now, but the damage they caused between siblings and the insecurites they created for their children live on.

OP your husband needs to get straight about his reactions to his parents. The money will sort itself out after that.

Are you mad? They haven't managed to 'sort themselves out' or 'take responsibility' for their entire adult lives, they've damaged their children, they're mean minded bullies - no offense but they are hardly going to change at a quiet word from you. For goodness sake don't act in a way that will let their behavior drive a wedge bw you and your husband. His secretly paying them an allowance is bad enough.

Your dh's fear may seem ridiculous to you but it will be very real to him. If I were you, and you want to stop this abusive relationship long-term I'd suggest to your husband that he can continue paying the allowance in the short-term if he speaks to a counsellor about his relationship with his parents and how its causing problems with his relationship with you/his children. And take things from there.

You can't agree something then go behind your husband or wife's back and do it anyway

You can if disposable income is divided equally, you have your own money and don't need to justify your spending to anyone. That's why we never argue about money.

I'm really not a fan of joint money as it can lead to arguments if spending patterns are different (in our case DH spends more monthly whereas I have occasional big purchases), I just think fairness is what's appropriate and separate accounts avoids conflict as there's no bean counting or justification involved so no arguments.

Back to the OP though, he's clearly not trustworthy so I'd advise separate accounts as we have. Then it's up to him if he wants less himself to subsidise them.

I think you are perhaps asking too much of your H by ordering him not to give his parents money and expecting to be obeyed. He's afraid of them, and people are suggesting the solution is that he be made more afraid of you? Poor sod - he can't win whatever he does.

I would suggest you work out a compromise - go over your family budget and agree a certain sum per month for you and your H that is your disposable income which can be spent without reference to your partner. Then back off.

The compromise you suggest would certainly solve the practical aspects of the money to PILs, SGB, but it won't do anything to address the dysfunctional relationship itself.

There will be other ways in which OP's H expresses his codependency with his parents, his enabling of their poor behaviour, not just the money thing. And these will continue to crop up and rot OP's life so long as her H does not tackle the underlying issue.

And he will only have the courage to do so if immensely motivated.

This is the cycle, but you have all helped me see things more clearly and take away some of my initial upset and anger.

So. I need to concentrate on the relationship not the money and try and motivate him to get it on a more healthy footing.

I can encourage and suggest he sees a counsellor alongside continuing to pay the money to his parents. If he goes to counselling, I will agree to the money in the short term, maybe six months or so. Perhaps he can let them know it will only be for a fixed time then there can be some face-saving and it's less me 'telling' him. That's a good start.

I don't check or care how he spends 'his' money; in fact I wish he would take back up the expensive sport he once loved or treat himself sometimes.

But this is him being coerced into spending money that we agreed wouldn't be spent in that way. And as he's kept this secret I have no idea what else he has given them.

I need to find some motivation for him to get help to break free of their unhealthy control and to help him see that this is a really unhealthy situation.

Barbarian only in wild moments - that was in response to a previous question.

How about sending your dh an email or letter? That way you can express all your concerns without him shouting or becoming upset. Email or give it to him and leave him alone to digest it and ask him to email you a reply.
I do this with difficult topics with my dh and he does the same to me. That way we can get across all we want to say, and the other person has to compose their thoughts to reply.

Do you know how long it's been going on?

The first thing I would do is go absolutely NUTS.

Fly off the handle? Good God, he wouldn't have a chance to get near the handle - he'd be on the floor with the shock of the blast coming from me (that might be a part of the problem - if your MO has been nice, careful, gentle... he's taken total advantage of that, in the desperately cunning and manipulative way people who are afraid do).

The second thing I would do is insist on control of the finances, or separation immediately. (Yes. That shocking. He NEEDS a shock).

The third thing I would do is give him a copy of Toxic Parents and tell him to read it.

The fourth thing I would do is sit him down and tell him, very clearly, that this is the end. That he has now made it clear that he sees his nasty, bullying, scrounging parents as more his family and more central and important to his life than you and your children. That can't continue, so his options now are to either agree to separation, or separate from his parents. How you do that is up for discussion, but personally, if you feel you're up to the fight, yes I probably would go and see them, spell out exactly how your DH feels, to the point of being sick, frightened etc., how it's damaged your relationship, how him defrauding the family to give them money behind your back is the last straw... and how you are from now on drawing up boundaries, and if they don't like it, tough. Yes they can blame you, they're quite welcome to.

Grab this chance, basically. Make this a crunch point, because if you don't, this will continue, and erode your relationship and so-called 'family' until nothing is left... and you split anyway when the children are adult and there's nothing to hold you together. By that time, you'll have zero respect for him. Oh and if you seriously think there's a chance he'll rip you and your kids off even more by bailing them out on a bigger scale, then separating finances now could save your bacon.

Kooky, do you think that might work? He absolutely loathes confrontation. I just worry that he will make all sorts of promises and then think because we didn;t have to have A Talk that everything is ok.

Castle the flying thing has proved counterproductive; I'm after a different approach for a different outcome. Shouting scares him and as I see, has driven him underground.

OP. They are his parents. He probably loves them. Would you not help your parents out? Yes they may be "toxic" , but they are his parents.

If he wants to give his parents money, and it is not negatively impacting family finances then why not let him?

Counterproductive how, though?

You agreed not to finance them.

He has gone behind your back and done it anyway.

Do you think he wouldn't be doing it if you'd quietly agreed on it rather than maybe shouting that he wasn't to give them your family money?

He's frightened, yes. But it's the fear of a cornered animal. He's getting round his fear not by sorting a frankly ridiculous situation, but by turning on you instead - the safe people. Shitting on you because that's not as scary.

You do need to let him see what he is destroying.

Maybe not shout, then - but tell him in very calm tones that you will no longer agree to be his partner unless you have control of the finances.

OP - After reading through the thread, I'm glad to see you looking at taking a more reasoned approach, rather than going in guns blazing. He's bound to be feeling pressure over this, and his behaviour would be learned behaviour that's likely not just going to disappear overnight.

I agree with the posters that say if you take control of the finances completely, that you are verging on financial abuse and becoming a bully yourself. That doesn't solve the problem at all, because then the pressure becomes yours within your relationship. Pushing him by piling on more pressure such as an ultimatum will only upset him further and will not resolve anything. It sounds like he does feel caught in the middle and doesn't want to upset anyone but simply doesn't know how else to deal with it.

I think that you need to have a discussion about this, but without levelling any accusations. Acknowledge that the relationship dynamics in his family are difficult. Perhaps he will be agreeable to some type of counselling just to help him deal with family pressure for now, but arrange your finances so that he has enough of his "own" spendable money each month to give to his family if he chooses. Then if he progresses in counselling and becomes more independent from his family, he may look at cancelling the financial arrangement altogether when he is in a stronger position emotionally to do so (with your support, of course).

What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that he sounds utterly devious. And hiding behind his fear, which you can see is palpable and IS real and horrible, is one of the ways in which he is devious - don't shout at me. Feel sorry for me. He may be doing it out of fear not nastiness, but it's still devious and corrupting.

Just a side note, if my (stbx)H told me I couldn't help support my parents (provided of course that we could afford it), I'd be pretty angry with him laying down the law about how I could spend my own money. I think you have to walk a very fine line with this one.

OP. They are his parents. He probably loves them. Would you not help your parents out? Yes they may be "toxic" , but they are his parents.

I don't think you can have any real idea about what people like this are actually like. And why would you if you have not experienced them? You're lucky. It doesn't sound to me as though the OP's DH loves them - it sounds like he is simply shit scared of them. They have nurtured that fear since he was born and that is the power they have over him. It's no use being all rational and saying "But they're his parents!" or "I fail to understand how a grown man is so frightened of his own parents..." and so on. Count yourself lucky you don't know. Some parents do not deserve to be parents.

OP it's hard to know what to do. Obviously it needs to stop, but how to make it stuff when your DH is under such a delusion is very difficult. You've had some good advice here. What I have done with my mother is not to go NC, as is so often advised, because I couldn't live with myself. I have simply withdrawn emotionally. As soon as she starts playing up and trying her old tricks, I withdraw physically as well. If she wants me in her life she has to behave properly. Luckily she has just enough awareness to be able to check her behaviour. Do you think your ILs would be capable of this? Do you think your DH would be able to do so, with help?

Hester that's very reasonable.

To answer the poster who wondered would I help out my own parents?

They are financial responsible and have ever asked me for a penny. They live modestly within their means and would no more fly first class than pigs would. They have been at every possible play and sporting event of their grandchildren and they always make occasions about the DC, not them.

If they needed me to, I would help them like a shot.

The difference is, my PILs don't need help, they just want to be the centre of everything and have bragging rights on the things their children do for them.

If you haven't experienced it, it's impossible to believe that such people exist.

I spent almost thirty years looking for the good in them.