oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

Oh, and OP, your H? Bear in mind "16" year olds routinely look older than they are. Chances are he was eyeing up a 14 year old in a sexual manner.

My skin crawls, particularly as you have children. If my DH (who is probably around the same age as your H) had seen him, he would have had a word with him.

So if my daughters, who are 17 and 18, went for a night out dressed in clothes that only just covered their bits, I shouldn't even be the slightest bit concerned?
Sorry, but I would. I make no apologies for that either. I'd be scared to death until I knew that they were home safely. They would attract attention from lecherous men. That's a fact. It's a societal issue. It's all very well saying, "it's lecherous blokes that are at fault ", yes they are but they're my children, not some social experiment in proving how damaged our society is. They're not guinea pigs, I can't help being concerned.
They're my kids.

I agree with you, neiljames77.

Its all very well for MNers to say this and that shouldn't happen, people shouldn't think like this or that, but they do. Women who look available will be understood to be available. If they are young and inexperienced at dealing with that kind of attention, they will be at risk of harm.

Don't stay at home worrying - tell them to phone you rather than get into a taxi.

neil, you want to "protect" your kids, that's great

we need to bear in mind though that the majority of sexual assaults on women are perpetrated by people that they know or trust in some way

how would how they dress impact on that ?

you are choosing to try and control only one very small aspect of the ways that young girls are in danger from men

oh, and your dd came back early....mine rolled in at 5:30

also (and I can see how this happens) ensuring your daughters only dress conservatively (how "conservatively" would that have to be, btw ?) means the unwanted sexual attention would be transferrred to other girls instead

the key is to change the behaviour of the men, not the behaviour of the girls (by changing society so that these men are shamed not celebrated). There are the roots of radical feminism.

in the meantime, we do what we can

you are choosing to try and control only one very small aspect of the ways that young girls are in danger from men

This was my thought. Your children were statistically far more at risk from "lecherous men" (I think it's more accurate to say "sex offenders") at a younger age and when not out on the town.

"Women who look available will be understood to be available. "

Fuck me. Do you really think this? Please tell me, how do you "look available". Available for what, exactly?

And NeilJames77, I too have children and they can wear whatever the hell they want. I might worry they would be cold but men do not sexually assault or rape women because the women have skin on display, they rape women because they are rapists. What do you actually say to your DDs? You can't wear that, you will get attacked?

Christ, it's like going back in time.

neil, your comments could be extrapolated to eg. as in the case of the rapist Ched Evans victims "asking for it" due to the way they dress, that they are drunk, that they went into a hotel room with a man etc etc etc

a rapist, and that rapist alone, is responsible for his crime

So if your daughter was sexually assaulted would you :

A) blame her
B) blame what she was wearing
C) blame the attacker.

D) tell her that if only she had dressed more conservatively the rapist would have raped someone else

I understand and appreciate all the statistics. I know that they should be free to wear whatever they like without fear of being groped by some dickhead thinking he's clever in front of his mates. It happens though. If I can advise them on anything that even slightly reduces the risk of that happening, I will. I can't stop them going out and enjoying life with their friends so I'll grab any opportunity to make them as safe as possible, however ill conceived it may appear.

That is fine. As long as you accept you are playing your part in upholding rape myths.

You don't appear to understand the statistics at all. There is no evidence that clothing is a risk factor in being raped.

You could reduce the risk of your daughters being raped by not allowing them to be alone with a male relative or friend of yours when they were under the age of 12. Did you "grab that opportunity"?

So basically, it's their fault if they get groped when wearing a short skirt?

I understand and appreciate all the statistics"

No you don't. You really don't. You are part of the problem I'm afraid.

OF COURSE I WOULDN'T FUCKING BLAME HER OR ANY OTHER WOMAN WHO WAS ASSAULTED!!!

Honestly, I give up! This is the real world I'm talking about and town centres all over the country are full of twats who believe they can do what they like.
To suggest that I'd blame my kids if they got attacked is a disgusting insult.
I just want to lesson the risk of it happening in the first place, if at all possible. I'm talking about sexual suggestions and groping btw,which might be directed towards them.

The fact is, men look at women in a sexual way and vice versa. It's the nature of our species to extend the species. The sad fact is you can't cherry pick who 'oggles' you, and essentially it really has nothing to do with what you're wearing/the time of day and area/how intoxicated you are. But. Those things do factor in where predatory men hang out. I was a silly girl in a very short skirt once upon a time, very naive and not at all worldly wise, and I did get attention that was occasionally suspect. It's a sad fact of the world we live in that we have to teach our daughters to be careful because they can never be really sure who's chatting them up at the bar.

My daughters are still very small and as much as I'd like them to be able to wear anything they like when they're older, I'd hope they would realise this can lead to unwanted attention. That's no victim blaming btw, that's just common sense.

I'm talking about sexual suggestions and groping btw,which might be directed towards them

Are you kidding me? That's pretty much part-and-parcel of being female and attending school, travelling on public transport, walking down the street or having a job.

Curt would you just outline to me how I, or my pre-teen daughter, protect ourselves from rape. Or in one case, being raped again.

town centres all over the country are full of twats who believe they* can do what they like

Exactly that.

In my local station car park there's a poster advising motorists not to leave valuables on view in cars because there are theives about. If the car gets broken into it's still a crime, of course, whether valuables are on view or not. It's not the fault of the motorist. Some might say these posters constitute victim blaming. I think they remind busy people that our nice town has a criminal element & encourage a little caution.

I think it's the same principle with personal safety. Advising anyone young, old, male or female to be aware of their surroundings and exercise caution because society contains some nasty characters is sensible. Failing to do so purely on principle seems bloody minded verging on neglectful.

The criticism of that analogy Cog is that it compares a woman's body with a wallet left out on a car seat. I.e. not comparable at all.

neil groping can happen through clothes.

I was groped several times while temping in London offices on my gap year, 20 years ago. My work wardrobe was almost entrely calf length skirts and turtle neck, short sleeve skinny ribs (don't know if a man can translate that but it was non-revealing early 90s young fashion, practical for filing and clambering and perching on reception stools)

I was groped several times by filing cabinets, photocopiers, in stock cupboards. Not because I was revealing anything tempting (or because of how I looked), but because I was junior, temporary and they were betting they could. They were right in a way, they all got elbowed or shoved or kneed, but it didn't occur to me that I could complain and be taken seriously, even in 92.

We need to understand that sexual assault from minor to rape is a POWER thing. It is never about clothes, or sex in the normal sense.