oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

I'm going to post one more thing, because I'd really like the OP to take a look at the FWR threads, but I suspect that, at the moment, her view of 'feminist' ideas would be rather negative. It's ok, OP, you're supposed to think feminism is about a bunch of irrational, men hating harpies screeching a bit too loudly, because it's necessary for you to think like that in order to maintain the status quo. It's not your fault.

So, Typing, to answer your earlier question, the problem with the 'mainstream' view is a) it's generally controlled by those in a privileged position, and it generally serves to protect them and their position, b) it relies on people being too scared/stupid/ready to conform to challenge it.

So, to take it away from the current subject...

On a really basic level, it's why the popular music charts are full of crap music; why people wear ugly fashion; and why football is as popular as it is. It's not because One Direction (or whoever, couldn't actually name anyone else who is currently considered 'popular'!) represent the best in music; it's not because ponchos are cool; and it's not because watching football and then sitting in the pub talking about football is the very best way to spend every weekend...

It's because the people who decide what 'mainstream' music/fashion/sports/anything will be are the ones who have more power (money) than those on the periphery. And it relies on the general population not having the imagination or intelligence to even realise that there are valid alternatives out there, or the confidence to explore it if they do.

Very simply, the authority voice silences the 'other' voice and those who position themselves with the 'other' are mocked, derided, ridiculed, excluded, minimised and feared precisely because the 'authority' doesn't want to be challenged. Why would it? It benefits from things staying the same. But all the great advances in societies (e.g. ending slavery/votes for women/gay rights) are made by those who reject the mainstream; the non-conformists. Because mainstream does not mean right.

But if we bring this back to the current discussion, the reason the mainstream is damaging is because 'our' mainstream view on particular issue is dictated by the 'authority' voice in our society, which is that of men. Women support it because they don't want to be 'uncool' or because they don't want to be seen as one of them blasted feminists (because many men don't like them and a lot of people like to align themselves with the majority/authority voice). Or because they've accepted it as natural law (when it's not) or because they lack the skills of critical analysis that would enable them to deconstruct it and see it for what it really is.

The reason 'we' view women as "dressing provocatively", "teasing" and other negative, misogynistic language, is because it has, until very, very recently, been used as a defence for men who choose to do appalling things to women as a means of excusing them. And in many cases, still is. And it's because the law was written by men and then applied by men, to defend men... Do you see?

I really do hope you read around this.

Bloody Hell, Voodoo!

I agree that stony silence may the best course of action, but am still bloody boiling over Opohdear's posts and way too gobby not to speak..
So, Op (as opposed to OP) is 'fed up' with people 'fleeing the thread as soon as their beliefs are challenged.' Er, no, Op, this thread is about 3 days old, you were just late to it. You are not the only man to post on this thread, and you were not the only poster to generally agree with the OP. Not much left to debate, surely, without simply repeating ourselves. You stated your views already. I was offended by your 'bring it on' comment (complete with exclamation mark); this isn't banter ffs. And when reminded that women have posted here with rape and assault experiences you dismissed it with 'it was their choice to share and you weren't talking about them anyway' plus the breathtakingly insensitive assertion that they 'were to shame the OP into agreeing with her.'
Goady fucker, indeed.

Voodoobooboo - did you tell these men to fuck off or ask them what did you just say ? Or tell the police ? I can hand on heart say I have never seen a woman groped or abused in this manner and it shocks me to hear it does. It doesn't help matters I suppose that if I did see a man act in thus way towards my daughters or partner I'd physically assault them.

FolkGirl - that's just pure conspiracy nut stuff, these evil controllers of society have much to answer for eh? One D to football violence.

Twin, many men act like this out of the sight of other men

For some it is display to other males, for some it is deliberately covert

I didn't say anything about football violence

It's not conspiracy stuff either. It's just the way it is.

It's not about being evil either, it's just that most people will follow the path of least resistance.

I don't get how these men can be "exercising power" !? What power would that be ? If I ever decided to approach a middle aged woman and whisper some filth in her ear I would fully expect to be slapped or shouted at, as it should be.

I should add - a woman of any age.

Twindad- I was on crowded tube trains (as in sardines would find it roomy) in the City rush hour. Of course I didn't say anything, my first trick would have been to work out who it was. As for slapping them, i had one hand on the bar and one holding handbag. As for the road repairer, nope i ignored it and i got on with my day.This is par for the course and the normal world for many many women and it mainly happens out of sight of men. It is about power, but power in the individual's head not in front of others. Unfortunately, while particularly grim, this is not an unusual day.

twindad they're "exercising power" because they're reminding a woman that she might have a job, she might have a good job, she might have authority at work, she might be financially independent and not appear to 'need' a man, but that he, as a man, could still destroy her in an instant. And she'd better not ever forget that. That's what the comment in Voodoo's was all about, anyway.

And no, he won't necessarily have thought all those exact thoughts, but those are the sort of beliefs that will underpin the motives behind those men. It's an "I'll show her" mentality, a "I'll bring her down a peg or two", a "look at her in her suit thinking she's fucking 'all that'" mentality.

And you might not do that, but very many men do. I've had it too. Largely when walking back from the bar with a pint in each hand when there's fuck all I can do about it.

The thing is, these men very rarely say or do it when you could realistically challenge them.

It's a shout from a car window; or a whisper on a crowded train; or a grope when your hands are full and you can't quite see who did it anyway.

Because in many cases, they won't even have turned to look at you. It's not because they find you attractive, or fancy you, or are trying to get your attention, it's to remind you that you're beneath them and that if they want to touch you, they will do and there's close to fuck all you can do about it.

FolkGirl, thank you. Motives perfectly explained and much better than I could articulate.

Twindad, this happens on rush hour tubes because it is a location and circumstance where it is nearly impossible for the victim to shout back and challenge behaviour. Men who do this know it is wrong but they choose to do it anyway and in a way that means they won't be caught, challenged or punished.

Power over women, in short.

I think some men feel entitled to ogle, comment, grope, as they choose. Some do it to intimidate, humiliate. Some men have a bad attitude to women, and actively dislike them. I think some men feel overwhelmed by women's effect on them physically, and trying to undermine women is a way of redressing that. Some men do it to fit in with the lads as a part of a pack mentality. And then some men like OPohdear are just thick and pig-shit ignorant...

The vast majority of mainstream porn is predicated on a fantasy of male sexual supremacy. The women are objectified, submissive, insulted. I don't believe all men are like that, I think porn targets the lowest common denominator, but no-one can say this fantasy doesn't sell well...

And many men wouldn't be able to articulate it, necessarily, because these beliefs are so ingrained that they're just accepted.

I'd guess, that all these men know is that they are in the presence of something that makes them feel uncomfortable; or that irks them; or, in some cases, angers them.

Imagine eating breakfast cereal for tea, or driving down the road to the petrol station in your pjs because it's 6.30am and you've run out of milk. You know that inherent 'wrongness' that you feel? It's that. That it's just... well... wrong. And when people feel like that, they react because they want that feeling to stop.

I've been dipping in and out of this thread lurking, just read voodoos post, here is a short video that pretty much backs that experience up:
viralwomen.com/post/woman_walks_around_new_york_she_get_catcalled_more_times_in_less_than_one_day=

I think some men feel overwhelmed by women's effect on them physically, and trying to undermine women is a way of redressing that.

Yes, that's the one I was getting at.

Voodoo

I'm reminded of a heated discussion I had with my exH recently. He went on a few dates with a very attractive woman. He showed me her photo, told me about her. They seemed to have a lot in common and be very well suited. She was just his type. Then he stopped mentioning her. I asked how it was going and it turned out that, during the third date, she'd suggested they went back to her place and continued the conversation over a glass of wine or two... He said, "no" and then dumped her. His reason? "I had no idea she was a slag".

That attitude what we are up against.

Well - like I say, where I am from if i groped someone on a bus or whispered perverted and threatening comments in their ear I believe all it would take is for the women to say "What did you just say you pervert" and all imagined power is taken away as the rest of the people on the bus (including all the men) would be disgusted and would probably tell the driver if nothing else. Men shout abuse at each other as well, baldy, fatty, "what the fuck are you looking at" etc. These comments are also intended to exercise power and to humiliate the person the comments are directed at if he is too scared to respond. It always seemed to me that since physical violence or the threat of doling it out to a woman is totally unacceptable, in many cases women have the upper hand when it comes to challenging this behaviour since they are less likely to be beaten up in public.

Women also make these remarks of course, "what the fuck is she wearing, who does she think she is?" etc.

As for the idea that every day I'm commuting to work there is a good chance a sexual assault is happening or has happened and that i've just never noticed, it's hard to hear this (I have two young daughters) and believe it all, I'm sorry to say that - who are all these f*ckers ? My partner has recounted a few tales of men doing odd things like exposing themselves in swimming pools, but like once when when she was 19 but never grabbing her on a bus etc.

I sincerely hope that is not the average woman's experience on daytime public transport voodoo. I have used the tubes for years, including at night, and fortunately not experienced a single similar episode, let alone four in one day.

Twindad...you wonder why women don't simply punch a man that assaults them ?

Are you hard of thinking or something ?

There is so much wrong (or so much naivity and ignorance) in that mindset, I don't know where to start.

Should I have punched a grown man when I was 12 getting sexually harassed walking home from school in my uniform ? Punched a male relative that everyone else thinks is just a bit "eccentric", punched the bloke in the pub surrounded by his jeering mates and escalated the situation, punched the bloke that "only" date raped me because I feared what he would do if I struggled further ? (these are just a few of the examples that have happened to me)

Women are vulnerable in many ways and not just by being physically smaller and less strong (in most cases) than men

here is some light reading for you

Sorry, you said "slapped" not punched, but my message remains the same

How am I hard of thinking to say that you should stand up for yourself especially when in a crowded place ? As for a grown man hassling school girls walking home he should be reported an locked up. Did you think he would really punch you in public ? As soon as you got home I trust you told a grown up and they took you to the local police station ? Or Is that being hard of thinking ?

Because twindad it's intimidating. Because you have no idea how far they will push it, because the last time I stood up to a man who verbally assaulted me in public, he upped the ante and became really nasty (verbal not physical). And that man was my brother!

Because any man who feels he has the right to exert that 'power' over a woman is not going to feel justly chastised if she reacts. He's going to be even more angered that a woman feels she has the right to challenge him; outraged that a woman has humiliated him in public. The sort of man who treats/regards women like that is not going to respond positively to a reaction.

The sort of man who would feel contrition is the sort of man who wouldn't be sexually assaulting a woman in public in the first place!

Twindad, should I have "stood up for myself" when I walked home by myself at 16 after a row with my boyfriend and was kerbcrawled all the way home ? What do you think might have happened to me ?

twindad76 I learned quite young that making a complaint is pointless. I was groped at worked and made a complaint to my manager to be told it's just a bit of fun. Someone says something and you make a fuss you get the response that I was only paying you a compliment and you are made to look like you are unreasonable for objecting. You accuse someone of groping you on a busy train and you get the response that they just accidentally caught you as it's so busy, it wasn't a grope at all. I was on a bus with my youngest who was only about 4 weeks old at the time when a guy sat there saying what he'd like to do to me thing is while it is sleazy and completely inappropriate some people would say that I should be grateful for the attention or people deny it really happens which is happening on this thread despite peoples testimony. Make a complaint or a fuss and you are just treated as a hysterical woman and not worth paying attention to.

Of course he's not going to respond positively but who gives a fuck. And being humiliated in public is just what they deserve.

I'm sorry you are so scared of men but as with other bullies they probably aren't as terrifying as you might think which is why they do it when they don't think anyone will object.

Happyhalloween I don't know what he would have done what did you think he was going to do ? Again I hope you could go home and tell a grown up.