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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

oogling young girls

804 replies

typingtoofast · 25/10/2014 22:08

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

OP posts:
JohnFarleysRuskin · 28/10/2014 23:06

Op, I think you and your partner are very compatible.

You think comparing theft and rape is fine. You think a woman's body is like a house. You think a woman with few clothes on should be careful that she isnt broken into by some random fella who can't help himself, right? You think a pretty girl in a short skirt is carrying on and is going to have sex tonight, whether she wants to or not, right?

I wish you a long and happy marriage with your charming dh.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 28/10/2014 23:06

No

I don't compare a woman's body to a telly or a wallet

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 28/10/2014 23:06

Open window = open vagina

Right ?

DirtyOldTown · 28/10/2014 23:11

is there an emoticon that depicts a burst of incredulous laughter with a slightly hysterical, desperate edge?

Cos I'm fresh out of words.

OPohdear · 28/10/2014 23:12

What do you suggest then, OPohdear ?

About what?

Women/girls must not dress "sexily" unless they accept it is inevitable there will be sexual violence against them ? (I could consider a range of behaviours to be "violence" from unwanted sexual advances/comments to rape)

"Unwanted sexual advances" count as violence? Ok then, dress modestly if it means that much to you. Or accept that a certain level of "violence" is present in our current civilisation and is probably just going to get worse before it gets better. It is depressing, indeed.

And how "not sexy" must we be to make us feel safe from such ? No short skirts ? No belly on show ? Hide our hair ? Hide our ankles ? Hide all skin ? The skin is a sexual organ after all. I got hassled many times as a schoolgirl dressed in blazer, knee length skirt and woolen tights. Your argument simply does not work.

It really depends on the context - a bikini on the beach is not provocative, but a bikini on the street is. Of course there are plenty of men who will hassle modestly dressed women, but there are more who will hassle a woman in a crop-top and mini-skirt. Hey, don't shoot the messenger, you know it's true.

How about we condition men to think otherwise, then...

Yeah, good luck with that...

Are they? Or is it just ignorance and lazy assumption...

Plenty of women think it's true as well.

How about we castrate them ?

That should work out fine.

oh noes mustn't get thought of as one of those nutcase man hating feminists!

Too late for that!

actually, feminists advocate that men are in control of their hormones (or should be)

Most men are in control of their hormones, and in fact don't sexually prey on women. But being in control of your hormones doesn't mean you don't notice women who are provocatively dressed, it just means you don't go up to them and try to have sex.

it's them manpleasing emptyheads that think they are not

Well I'm a man (as I've mentioned on other threads) but I simply cannot understand why some feminists here are happy for their daughters to go out dressed like hookers. Surely it encourages objectification, and that's bad for everyone. There's even one poster who chastised the OP for wanting her daughters to dress modestly!

What does 'sexually available' even mean other than consent between individuals? There is no general public concept of 'sexually available', and no outfit that indicates 'sexually available'.

Really, you don't know what sexually available means? Life must be so confusing for you. Here's a clue: it means open to possible sexual relations with somebody new. There are many ways men and women can give this message out, and it's a good job they do otherwise we'd be facing extinction.

The reason, by the way, that men are more attracted to sexily dressed women is because they think there's more chance they'll sleep with them, because of their implied greater sexual availability. Oh the mysterious dance of lust and love, or something like that...

OP, I get your point - there are opportunistic abusers and, say, serial abusers. The later will steal/attack/rape whenever they can, but we can and should protect ourselves against the former.

ArsenicChaseScream · 28/10/2014 23:16

Is it very wrong of me to read 'guards' and wonder 'Ireland? Catholic? Devout?' and wonder if that explains some of this?

typingtoofast · 28/10/2014 23:16

Oh sweet jesus. i give up. i really do. It is display I am talking about. Not rape, not sexual attack of any sort. I have never in all my posts said a woman would be attacked if she wore xyz. I said it was displaying too much.
I never above said house equated to vagina. You two are both reading into his totally and running with how you associated it to rape/violent attack.
I cannot help that i am mainstream in this thought. Modesty. That's all. with regard to my partner, i did not feel his comment was appropriate at all and I have said that time and time again here. I thought modesty would have been advisable. But he saw what he saw and made a crude unfiltered remark. TO WHICH I DON'T AGREE WITH!
I cannot put anything else up here as seriously it gets ridiculously twisted into something it's not. Maybe it's me and i'm just crap at explaining myself.

OP posts:
typingtoofast · 28/10/2014 23:22

Arsenic. well observed. An Irish woman living in UK.So bad habit on the lingo. However catholic? no wrong. And religion has absolutely nothing to do with this. Another reading too deeply.

opohdear. thanks, but you'll get slated now... keep the head down.

OP posts:
OPohdear · 28/10/2014 23:40

OP, no chance of keeping my head down - bring it on, I say!

NorthWitch · 29/10/2014 00:04

I get your point typing and I agree with what you are saying - stopped reading the thread because of the nasty abuse you are getting. There is nothing wrong with a bit of modesty - I have to wear appropriate clothing in work - it's not acceptable to be showing too much flesh (I wouldn't anyway) and no-one questions it. There is an idea that you can do what you want, when you want etc., but you can't.

I notice that men don't seem to be under the same pressure to be sexy. It is women who are out half naked on nights out, falling out their dresses on the red carpet or in tv shows and wearing sexy halloween costumes - how are women in any way equal if they are still required to be sexy?

As for the burglary analogy - if a burglar breaks into my house he is 100 percent responsible and to blame but I am being very naive if I leave my door open as I know I live in a society which contains people who do bad things and I need to take steps to protect myself. If I don't my insurance company won't pay out as they would consider that I have been negligent.

I should be able to leave my house unlocked but that fact is I can't! I should be able to go out stark naked and get blind drunk and be absolutely fine but the fact is that it is not safe to do so. You need to deal with the reality of a situation not how you want it to be.

cloggal · 29/10/2014 00:17

I'm sorry but I'm actually staggered this is being allowed to stand in a forum, in a thread, where so many have shared experiences of assault and rape. I really am appalled.

OPohdear · 29/10/2014 00:24

Have you reported, cloggal? What guidelines have been broken? It sounds as if you just don't like people disagreeing with you.

cloggal · 29/10/2014 00:29

Haven't reported yours OPOhdear. Don't mind disagreement (I'm regularly wrong). On this matter I think the tone of many posters - aside from the content being totally offensive, but that's merely an opinion - could be upsetting for mNers who have been subjected to assault or rape. Given that people have shared on this thread as an attempt to genuinely help the OP, I don't think this should stand. Hth.

DirtyOldTown · 29/10/2014 00:30

Cloggal- I agree.

OPohdear - 'bring it on, I say!'

Really? You are goading people into having a row with you? If you have read this whole thread you will have read women's experiences of rape and assault. But you're still happy to cheerfully ask them to 'bring it on'?

cloggal · 29/10/2014 00:35

Missed that one dirtyoldtown. Yep. Reporting that, so I take that back OPOHdear. Not because I disagree in general terms with 'bringing it on' or because you disagree with me. Being goady on a thread like this is really something else.

OPohdear · 29/10/2014 00:40

Given that people have shared on this thread as an attempt to genuinely help the OP, I don't think this should stand.

Help the OP with what, exactly? More like shame her into agreeing with them.

Really? You are goading people into having a row with you? If you have read this whole thread you will have read women's experiences of rape and assault. But you're still happy to cheerfully ask them to 'bring it on'?

It's their choice to share, and I wasn't referring to them anyway. I don't want to row with anyone, but there's a debate going on here and I get fed up when people flee threads (and try to delete posts they don't agree with) as soon as their beliefs are challenged.

Yeah, I'm the goady one. Confused

cloggal · 29/10/2014 00:47

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the stories of those who have experienced this as merely an attempt to shame an OP. These are peoples' lives.

cloggal · 29/10/2014 00:49

...and I will be 'fleeing the thread' for tonight. I've wished the OP well as I think her mind is fixed and she posted more for reassurance, not expecting this.

typingtoofast · 29/10/2014 01:02

I really don't wish to continue this forum as it has, i'm sure made some mn feel uncomfortable and discussed issues which i never intended which resulted in a forum spanding 18 pages.
I wrote this cloggal earlier on.

OP posts:
mumwithanipad · 29/10/2014 01:21

I don't think anyone has posted their story to shame the op. They've posted to dismiss the myth that dressing in short skirts equals being up for grabs and deserving of abuse. That's why I posted anyway.

Using the analogy of an open window being negligent implies that a woman wearing what you think is sexy clothing is negligent should she be attacked, it's just another way of saying it's her fault. It's not her fault. It's really not.

OPohdear · 29/10/2014 01:59

They've posted to dismiss the myth that dressing in short skirts equals being up for grabs and deserving of abuse.

Absolutely no-one here has said this.

cloggal · 29/10/2014 07:00

I absolutely do not hold you responsible typing for the nature of anyone else's posts. I understand that this is not at all the thread you expected when you posted and I too have said that before. However, this is (as you've discovered) a very sensitive area - partly imho because people don't realise how damaging it is - and as such will always invite 'discussion'.

I am still genuinely shocked at some of the outdated views expressed here, and that MNHQ has allowed certain comments to remain. I make no apology for that. I'm stepping back now as I think the goading on a thread of this nature is OTT. I really hope others have just hidden the thread. Sad

I do wish you well though OP and hope that at least this has helped clarify a few things relating to your own predicament. And as you said before it's maybe made you question a few things - do check out the FWR boards. Good luck. Hope the next thread I see you on is a happier one.

HappyHalloweenMotherFucker · 29/10/2014 07:43

Refusing to rise to goading is not "fleeing the thread" it is what HQ recommends. The best way to deal with "bring it on" shout outs is stony silence.

twindad76 · 29/10/2014 08:00

That's outrageous about the mankinis. Surely a man should be able to wear a mankini and go where he likes without people feeling all icky or taking offence !

Voodoobooboo · 29/10/2014 08:14

Have been lurking on here with mounting depression about the rape myths that are still trotted out despite all evidence to the contrary. The fundamentals that rape is about power not sex and that rapes are more likely to be crimes committed by trusted and known people, not lurking strangers in dary alleys has passed many by.

However i wanted to share my story from yesterday as it will ring true for 10000s of us and might just make people think about the world that women actually live in every day rather than the fantasy place where only the girls who ask for it get unwanted attention. I went to London for the day on business. Busy day, lots of meetings and chasing around. I'm a 42 year old woman. I was dressed in a business dress up to my neck and down to my knees. I was wearing a black trench coat and scarf and flat shoes (heels were in my bag). I had my arse groped on the Bakerloo, I was groped on the Central, I had some charmer on a very crowded rush hour train whisper "I could stick my dick up your arse right here and you wouldn't know it was me" in my ear as we pulled in to Bank and some git leered and shouted at me as I walked past the road repairs at Moorgate. I got a cab back to the station.

An average day in town and a magnificent example of inadequate prats using sexual threats to exercise power over a woman.

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