oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

Good day garbanzobean.

So the problem is that a middle aged man expressed the view that he found young girls attractive and he would have liked to have met them on a night out when he was younger !? This makes him a "pervert" - what planet do you live on !?

The only problem I can see in anything he said is that he appears to equate her dress sense with liking lots of sex hence the "imagine the fun" bit. However, i don't think we can call him a "dirty old man" for that. No one would for example say that Alan Turing was a dirty old man for having a 19 year old lover, because of fear about what similar thought police to those present on this thread would say - or perhaps because it's natural to find young adults attractive.

Wow.

Jesus where does the internet dredge these people up...

Thank you Folk Girl for your post on : FolkGirl Tue 28-Oct-14 08:39:18.
I am so sorry to hear what you had to go through.I feel you hit the nail on the head in a very respectful way to me, thank you for expressing it in a way that I couldn't and for taking the time to respond.

I do thank others who respond too. However I feel now that the discussion has gone off in tangents that I had not intented to bring up.
I understand in a discussion that there will be varying degrees of reactions,what is acceptable, what exactly is implied and what effect an action/saying would have on a situation. I suppose some might have taken the wording of dp differently. We are quiet open about what we think and sometimes a filter is necessary. I do think it's inappropriate what was said though, hence I had to write it on this forum. However I do understand my dp and realise that it wasn't exactly meant in that way. In this instance actions v saying are polls apart. But it did offend me as I didn't think it necessary or directly appropriate.I am not victim blaming at all. I think the discussion went way off in another tangent there and it was probably because I couldn't express myself clearly and I did feel somewhat attacked. I also feel some posters only read what they wanted to read or THOUGHT i meant xyz. when i didn't. One poster here mentioned clothing designed to attract. This is more what I meant. I can't help I have an 'old fashioned' attitude now as a mother where as in my younger days I would have dressed similarly. But I just feel i'd like my daughter to have more modesty and be able to have people view her for her being attractive without relinquishing all on the surface. That's just how I feel and I felt the same about that girl. I do believe society today sexifies everything for young girls and they feel it necessary to behave and present themselves in this way. It isn't their fault when it's all around them in the media. So it was never my intention to victim blame for anything. Because rape/advances wasn't exactly what I was alluding to. I merely meant that they would be attracting boys similar age who could view them in a way they shouldn't be. You can argue my point on that but that's what i see everyday even in work. men who do admire/drool when a woman walks by in a short skirt. You wouldn't think at times these intelligent , professional married men would behave like this but they do. So the point raised where females are objectified is somewhat true. Who's fault is that? media/men/society. I can't answer that one i'm afraid. It's a combination. But I don't think it will never stop. The only way I can for me make my small part is to a) respond to my partner that i found what he said offensive to ME and to think clearly before he opens his mouth on an observation to avoid what he says being taken up a certain way. He has explained his observation to me today and I do believe it wasn't meant that way. I am not blinkered by any means and it has also made me wonder about our relationship b) ensure that my daughter always feels her best when she goes out. I will encourage her to be somewhat modest and hope that I will always make her feel that she can come to me if she is every worried or has a problem. I will protect her always and whether others try a different parenting route that's up to them. As parents we can only do as best as we can with what we know or learn. Nobody's perfect.
I have learnt from this forum. I hope some people have too. Because life isn't just black and white and not being open to change/advice is unhealthy. For those of you who say oh finally she realises she's wrong. I think it was because i didn't clearly explain myself, my bad, however you should also take away from all this that being v aggressive because someone doesn't understand your point or view it isn't healthy. Neil was given a very hard time here and I feel it was a little unjust. He didn't accuse or slam down on me and that is why I did thank him for his points, particularly him being a man that he understood. I honestly felt some of the females here just went off on one with insults etc and didn't respond productively. I tend to listen to logical and open minded individuals.
To finish. folk girl among others (garb, some of your points were valid too) you have a nack for being able to write clearly and fluidly and I admire that. It makes your points welcome and gives me food for thought. I really don't wish to continue this forum as it has, i'm sure made some mn feel uncomfortable and discussed issues which i never intended which resulted in a forum spanding 18 pages.
I don't have to explain myself or justify myself to anyone here who doesn't agree with me or insults me, I do however thank those who took the time to add to the discussion in hand.

I'm glad you read folkgirl's post OP. We aren't going to agree on this so I wish you all the best.

I tend to listen to logical and open minded individuals.

Oh, come off it OP. You mean that you have difficulty listening to those who don't agree with you. Many logical and open minded people have challenged your ideas here and you have dismissed most of them.

temporary - If you want to provide advice or your thoughts great but you're 16 pages too late for hen pecking! It doesn't achieve anything.
If you read my last paragraph it says responses have given me food for thought.

"Hen pecking".

Fantastic.

Thank you, typing.

Again, I know it's hard to get your head around, but even the concept off wanted your daughters to dress modestly is all part of the same thing.

If you really want to get some insight into alternative ways of viewing this, then look at some of the threads on the FWR board on here.

Some of it will sound bonkers and extreme to you, but a lot of that is because your current mindset is very mainstream (sadly!) Have a look around and just see.

It might give you a fresh perspective on your marriage too, and give you some of the answers you seek. There's a reason you're uncomfortable with you husband's conduct.

Good luck.

Again brilliantly put folkgirl

I didn't see the point in repeating what others have said, although that doesn't usually stop me . Good luck though OP, I hope it has given you some food for thought and you come to see the logical connection between the your views on what is 'appropriate' and the issues raised here about attitudes to sexual assault.

What do you suggest then, OPohdear ?

Women/girls must not dress "sexily" unless they accept it is inevitable there will be sexual violence against them ? (I could consider a range of behaviours to be "violence" from unwanted sexual advances/comments to rape)

And how "not sexy" must we be to make us feel safe from such ? No short skirts ? No belly on show ? Hide our hair ? Hide our ankles ? Hide all skin ? The skin is a sexual organ after all. I got hassled many times as a schoolgirl dressed in blazer, knee length skirt and woolen tights. Your argument simply does not work.

How about we condition men to think otherwise, then...

A couple of ideas.

1. Men wear clothing that covers their faces so they can't look at women in order to judge them sexually available. And their hands, so they can't grope. Just a little slit for their eyes so they don't walk in to walls.

2. Men are only allowed out in public with a proper chaperone, a female relative, to protect them from themselves and their natural urges.

Men are conditioned to associate sexy or provocative dress with sexual availability

Are they? Or is it just ignorance and lazy assumption...

How about we castrate them ?

oh noes mustn't get thought of as one of those nutcase man hating feminists!

actually, feminists advocate that men are in control of their hormones (or should be)

it's them manpleasing emptyheads that think they are not

Shit I'm depressed after reading this

If it's any consolation, Blackpool council have banned men from wearing mankinis.

Too sexy, Neil? < joke >

Yep, pretty depressed here too.

Men are conditioned to associate sexy or provocative dress with sexual availability.

I am so happy to be fairly sure that the men I am close too don't think this way. A woman dresses how she dresses. It doesn't mean she wants to have sex with anyone at that time. Even if she has actually chosen an outfit because it will make her sexually attractive to men, that doesn't mean she wants to have sex with them. It doesn't mean she wants to have sex with a specific person, and certainly not any random observer.

What man is stupid enough to think that because a woman is wearing a certain outfit she must not only want to have sex, but with literally any man who happens to encounter her...including him?

When did consent for sex become something that didn't require any words or actions other than being 'in view' in an outfit men regard as sexy?

What does 'sexually available' even mean other than consent between individuals? There is no general public concept of 'sexually available', and no outfit that indicates 'sexually available'.

Available makes a woman sound very passive, like a free public loo there to be used.

OK so they are animals, then, but animals who can control their actions
yes, I'd go along with that.

But what's wrong with being mainstream and thinking being slightly modest in dress sense (and i'm not talking skirt to ankles, top buttoned up etc at all). Why is it in strip clubs and even supposedly classy burlesque dancing they wear items that aim to tantalise the 'viewer'. Because it does have an effect. I'm not saying it would lead to anything. I'm just saying it gives a message to say here are my boobs and they want to say hi first before you see me. The person behind them.
Can i try and analogy:
Say you have your lovely home, all nicely decorated and lovely items on display. These are your items. Thought and care went into displaying and decorating our home for your pleasure. That's all fine.Totally normal.
But what if you were to go to bed and leave a window open or a back door.
Now it's your house remember. Your items. Do place where you like in your house.
But a petty thief who happens to walk by isn't intent on actually burglaring at that point, but he sees the window /door open. Remember it isn't his and it's your home and items but he will justify by saying well you left your window open and i was tempted. This has happened to me and the guards did say to me. but you left your window open. I mean you have lovely stuff here and wouldn't you want to not encourage anyone to break in by ensuring you didn't have your items on display with a window open.
I wanted to reply. but it is my house, my items, i should be able to have a window open on a hot day and not worry.
The reply would be yes, in an ideal world, but unfortunately there are opportunists in all walks of life.
Again I am not emplying rape or sexual attack of any sort. My original post was that it was displaying too much.
Does nobody get my point here?