My MIL is snide and manipulating and I want to emigrate to get away ....

[looki]

I have made a big effort to 'get along' with her. I have put up with her racist, ignorant and snobbish remarks for six years.

I have smiled at her while she told me that her husband could never have owned a (specified) small business because he is an 'academic who needed to use his brain' while knowing my own father owned the same small business. I have listened to her while she recounted stories of throwing stones at neighbour's pets while their owners were out because she 'didn't like their owners'. There are a hundred other examples - the children's birthday parties must be held at her house, she knows best about every single thing in the whole fcuking world.

I have nodded and smiled until now as she is raising her game and is getting snide with my young children, 'advising' me that young children can be 'horrible and sneaky' and need to be 'taught to be obedient'. I have adorable girls but her view is that boys are better. I have bitten my tongue for the sake of my husband. I want to run away from her as far as possible but her son fails to see anything wrong in anything she says or does and I am at my wits end. I can cut down visiting but I cannot avoid it.

She will expect us to spend Christmas with her. I am already dreading it. We will be told to arrive on Christmas Day 'on time'. We will have to tell her a hundred times how good her dinner is, we will have to be profusely grateful for being somewhere we don't want to be. Her (single) daughters in their forties will be there. They are versions of her. They will ask me questions on her behalf and 'suggest' better ways I can do things with the children. When I say that I'm happy with how things are, they will smile and say yes yes but we are right. Her words, their mouths.

I don't have the energy for her or them anymore. I am tired. I am determined she will not have an undue influence over my kids!

Meant to add - I grew up with just mum, dad, sister and brother, and my friends. Although we moved every 3 years (dad = army) so there weren't even many of them continually in my childhood - I have never looked at mum and demanded to know why I didn't have my 15 aunts and uncles in my life, or my 4 grandparents. They jsut weren't. I was perfectly happy (except for toxic dad and sister - that came later ) and it was just the way it was.

And, further on the theme of your daughters' relationships with their grandparents and aunts, I lived an ocean away from half my relatives, and in the same village as the other half. I built meaningful and lasting relationships with those who were worth having a relationship with, even if I very rarely got to see them. The toxics, otoh, were something to be endured.

So, if your ILs weren't toxic, even seeing them once every 2 years wouldn't stop your DDs having meaningful relationships with them. The fact is, though, that they are toxic: they will never build a relationship based on unconditional love and respect for your DDs, even if they see them every day.

It's not frequency of contact that's important in order to build good family relations, it's the quality of the person. And it's no use having lots of contact with people who don't respect your DDs as individuals in their own right, but rather see them as pawns in their little power-play.

I think your realisation and acceptance that there isn't some magic bullet which will sort it all out with you still clearly the reasonable one is an important step forwards. Whatever you choose to do about it, you are aware that there are problems and can choose how much you are going to stand up and be awkward, against putting up with parts of it so as not to escalate things too far and too fast.

As other posters have said - it's all very well for us to say "You have to do x and y" but we're not the ones having to get through that visit with our sanity intact!

I agree at what has been said to a large degree.
A couple of other thoughts- what do you do when she makes the snide remarks? you need to call her out on them- highlight how silly they are. my inlaws are decent enough people but of their generation/daily mail - i have to counter views said (innocently) so that my DS doesn't grow up thinking they are right (eg Men don't need to know about housework, men need to rest more than women etc)
Also on christmas-why don't you invite them to yours as a first step - then you are not the baddy keeping her GC away from her- if she refuses then she is choosing not to see them

I have smiled at her while she told me that her husband could never have owned a (specified) small business because he is an 'academic who needed to use his brain' while knowing my own father owned the same small business

This sounds so much like something my mother would have said. She was full of insecurities that she would never have admitted to If anyone said anything that touched a nerve she used to go on the attack in a PA manner. If I said anything, I was shot down in flames. My sister used to do it though - she could get away with a lot more. She was also matriarchal (from a long line of matriarchs) and liked to be at the centre of our relationships (I was one of 5) and I used to think of her as a spider at the centre of a web with her feet on all the strings.

Families get locked into patterns of behaviour that may have worked in the past, as times change, they become dysfunctional, and anyone trying to break out of the pattern gets pushed back into place. If DH's sisters are single and not had children, it sounds like there has not been much happening to rock the boat for a while.

Start with your Christmas plans and take things one step at a time If DH has said yes, in effect, to Christmas at home, take him at his word and make sure that he has some input and responsibility of making sure the day turns out how you both want it. (presumably the focus is on making it a nice day for the children to enjoy time with their parents and new toys). Don't just recreate Christmas at mother's, as Christmas at wife's, and make sure you take out any unnecessary stressful bits. He may need a little patience and teaching, as he will not be used to this. If things do not go to plan, just say 'oh well' and point out the good bits.

See the ILs on a different day.

If possible, it is worth inviting Aunts round occasionally, singly, on their own so that they can form their own relationships with the children, and not with mother or any sisters or ingrained patterns of behaviour in the background. Actually, after re-reading your post, I am feeling a little sorry for them having a mother who says having boys is better

I suspect I know what the OP's decision is...........not apportioning blame of course, but just hoping that things might change one day.

I wanted to update this thread and say thank you to you all for your advice.

We spent Christmas day in our own house for the first time. DH wasn't initially happy but I gave him the option of spending Christmas with his parents and sisters if that was what he wanted. I would have been genuinely fine with this. He decided to stay at home with us.

MIL was 'stunned' when DH originally told her our plans. Then she turned to tears. Then she asked what was wrong with me! She kept this up for a few weeks and although seemed to accept it then, I know she must have been tossing and turning at night with anger (ill disguised as disappointment). I hope I don't sound hard but I know her well enough to know she would have been very bitter about not getting her way. We then went to her house on Boxing Day for dinner where she gave me a turkey baster as a Christmas gift :)

She got very involved in gifts other people had given us, to the point of exchanging some of them for other things (the people who had given us gifts had stupidly given them via her and left gift receipts with the gifts). I imagine this is another form of control?!

She still wears me out but I feel, I have at least started the process of giving some control of my own family back to us.

Good for you for standing up for yourself, or at least starting to! She sounds poisonous.

Round of applause.
Now make sure you don't use the baster and re gift her it next christmas.

Good on you for making a stand! Now keep it up!

Well done looki, that is a great start!

And yes exchanging other people's gifts is horrendously controlling, if I were you when the thank you letters/phone calls get done I would make sure that they explicitly state what the presents were, so people will start to question/work out what's gone on...

And whilst I like heels' idea of giving her back the turkey baster, actually I think I would take it as a sign that she knows you are going to be having Christmas lunch in your house every year from now on

Just came across your post for the first time today, and thrilled to see you had the Christmas you wanted. I won't go into my own story but I do know how hard it is to say no and to begin to take control.

The reason you didn't go batshit and call her and the sisters out on their behaviour previously is because you're a normal, decent and well-adjusted person. This is why it was so hard for you to decide on a course of action that, although correct and justified, was going to "upset" your dh and his family. You probably don't "do" upsetting people, they do it in their sleep.

Your in laws will not change. They will not have the same emotional response to situations that you and other reasonable people have. This is a strange and hard lesson to learn. I came to realise that my pils just could not be approached in the same way as others.

Your dh will most probably be unable to support you in the way you would wish in the months to come. Staying with you on Christmas day is a start though. My guess is that you are usually the chatty "buffer" one between him and his family when you all get together. This is classic stuff. He will find it harder when he sees you withdrawing from this role, but he may find some strength in seeing you being strong.

This will be a very testing time for your relationship. You're not asking him to choose "sides", but he'll be pulled every which way. In my opinion there's not a lot you can do. He's an adult, married with children but also somebody who's grown up with a very unhealthy family dynamic. I do think these are no-win situations, you all end up losing something. However, you can't worry about them, just yourself, your children and your marriage. It does get easier and you do get stronger - a lot !!

She exchanged your gifts from other people!?!! WOW.

I'd write my 'thank yous' telling the givers exactly what happened and how thrilled you would have been to receive the original gifts they had selected for you.

Just out of curiosity, how did MiL justify doing this?

OP - I'm so pleased you had the Christmas you wanted. You've taken the first step towards taking control back - onwards and upwards into 2015.

So delighted to read this!

How wonderful does it feel to take power back from the toxic loon???

That was the hardest step - the first one. Keep going - declare those boundaries and be ever vigilant.

The tears and tantrums were inevitable and as you found were easily surmountable once you are aware how these people exploit fear and the threat of an outburst to keep everyone under control and not challenging anything they do or say.

Do you think she has NPD? It is a fully recognised MH disorder - your DH needs to know the scope of what you are dealing with and the dysfunctional dynamics it creates and imprints on family members:

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20025568

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and other areas of their life, such as work or school.

If you have narcissistic personality disorder, you may come across as conceited, boastful or pretentious. You often monopolize conversations. You may belittle or look down on people you perceive as inferior. You may feel a sense of entitlement — and when you don't receive special treatment, you may become impatient or angry. You may insist on having "the best" of everything — for instance, the best car, athletic club or medical care.

At the same time, you have trouble handling anything that may be perceived as criticism. You may have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation. To feel better, you may react with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make yourself appear superior. Or you may feel depressed and moody because you fall short of perfection.

Many experts use the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, to diagnose mental conditions. This manual is also used by insurance companies to reimburse for treatment.

DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:

Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Expecting to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerating your achievements and talents
Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people
Requiring constant admiration
Having a sense of entitlement
Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations
Taking advantage of others to get what you want
Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Being envious of others and believing others envy you
Behaving in an arrogant or haughty manner
Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence, it's not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal and value yourself more than you value others.

Definitely regift the turkey baster back to her!

Also I agree I would write thank you letters explaining that you loved your gift but MIL had taken it away................

She will see your refusal to do her bidding as an outright declaration of war. If she seems quiet and docile for a bit this is just her getting you off guard so she can hurt you even more badly than before.

Well done!!!

Nicenewdusters do I know you? Yes you are uncannily correct. I am the overly chatty one between DH and his family. On Boxing Day I sat back and didn't chat as much as before. I noticed a few times when I left the room to tend to one of the children, that conversation had stopped completely by the time I returned. I sat back and watched and didn't 'fill silences' like I usually do. I find it the house so stifling and formal though that I am uncomfortable to the point of feeling awkward.

Weirdly I found the sisters were ruder than their mother. They asked their usual questions and when I answered and asked them the same questions in return, they said 'yes yes' but didn't actually reply. The older sister was particularly rude a few times, was quite obviously rude at times and then proceeded to lie down and close her eyes when her mother left the room as if she was asleep although she quite obviously wasn't and couldn't have been as our children were making noise. She was really quite bizarre truth be told.

MIL proceeded to tell me a number of times to thank other people for their gifts to the point where I started to wonder was I the frightfully rude one who doesn't say thanks to people but I do, I always send an email or a little note if I can't say it in person. Anyway after being told for the fifth or sixth time and tired of feeling like I was suddenly six years old again being told to say thank you, I got fed up and replied that there of course we (DH and I) would thank people for the gifts and its something we would do anyway. She got a bit flustered and luckily one of the children called so I could get away at that point. Later that evening, she took off her glasses and it was apparent that she had shed some tears. I had never seen her without her glasses before as she wears always wears them so I can only assume she took them off so I could see she was upset. I can't go around trying to figure out how I had upset her as frankly I wouldn't take back either what i had said or how I had said it. I am happy that while I was assertive, I was most definitely not rude to her.

Its all so tedious really but I have started and so I will continue. I am a little nervous to read from a previous poster that 'everybody will lose'. That was and isn't my intention. I simply want to act like I'm a forty something and be treated as one rather than a four year old.

Wow Somethingtodo, your post is so informative, I wish I'd read it years ago.

Hi Looki. You asked if we knew each other after I posted. To my knowledge we don't. You felt it was uncanny that I suspected you might be the buffer between yourself and dh's family. Unfortunately I don't have any special insight (else I'd be straight down the newsagents for a lottery ticket !!). I have however spent a lot of time on MN in the past few months reading some very wise posts from those with IL problems.

I've read a lot about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (my fil in a nutshell) and come to realise that although on the face of it I always got along with my pils, they are an emotionally unhealthy couple and have had a very negative effect on my dp's life.

I actually felt quite sick when I read how people who have grown up with a parent with NPD will often (subconsciously) chose a partner who can act as a buffer between them and their family. I was forced to go no-contact with my fil some months ago. My dp's relationship with his parents has, from what I see, changed a great deal as a result. I am no longer there to lift the mood in their miserable home, and to break the tension when all the siblings are together. I am the second dil to go no-contact, but of course they are not to blame in either case.

It was me who said that everybody will stand to lose something. I'm sorry if this made you feel nervous. I did think carefully about whether I should have used that phrase. What I meant was that in gaining what is rightfully yours, i.e as healthy a relationship as possible with your ils, peace of mind, the right not to be bullied, you will have to do things which mean to some extent you lose in other areas. Here I was thinking of knowing your dh will find it hard to see you pulling away from his family, reducing contact with your dc and gps, acknowledging and accepting that you will never have the in laws you hoped for.

There was a post late last year, I think the op was called Happy1987, the post was called MIL problems. There was some excellent advice here from Attilla the Meerkat and Meerka. Lots of posters with previous experience advised other "sufferers" to arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible about how people like your mil and her family operate. Just as importantly how they will have affected your dh, and his inability now to see the situation for what it really is. I think you're right not to want to "win". That is how they would see it. As you say, you just want to be treated like an adult. As you have realised, it will be down to you to try and make this happen, and you sound like you're doing great so far.

Frances so do I - I would not have endured 30 years of hell. OP it look me a long time to understand that I was the cabaret act at the ILs = I was there to entertain and then no doubt after I left they had a feast of ridicule?

I can imagine that the sinister spinsters were actually exhausted and needed to decompress by lying down on Boxing Day as you can imagine the drama/llama antics from xmas day with you not there - and the months of hysterics and hissing leading up to it.

If my DH chose to leave his DC on Christmas Day to be with his Mother he would never return.

Hi again, just checked and I got the op name wrong in the thread I mentioned - it's Happymum1985.

Looki, I could almost have written some of your posts. I can so relate to so much of what you say, especially your bafflement at being treated like a child. My MIL appears to feel she can discipline me and particularly my DH. Of course, if someone would actually point out that the emperor has no clothes, then the whole house of cards would collapse (forgive my mixed metaphors, it's late...)

I am taking courage from some of the posts in which people advise that once you have faced down a narcissist, (i.e. saying "thank you, but we have other plans for Christmas) it doesn't seem so daunting the next time.

Oh Somethingtodo - I too am the cabaret act. I have been there enough times to know they completely think they are all think they are far superior to me. Its so important to them to 'be' someone. I know many people are like that, but for them its as if its a necessity. Whatever about PIL thinking like that (I can almost excuse them as that is common in a certain older generation), I can't fathom why the sisters think and believe they are better than others. One of them once refused to even name the company where she temped as the company was beneath her! Its incredible to witness but in my heart I find it very sad to hear people being referred to as 'the riff raff'. They are alone and I can't see that changing anytime soon and if they took a step back and looked at how they come across to others, their lives could change so much for the better. I think they believe they are of a certain social standing that in reality they are not a part of at all. A wish to be a part of it and being is very different.

Thank you again everyone and NND - thanks for checking out the previous thread. I'm off to have a good read of it!!!

I am so glad you had the Christmas Day you wanted.

I can't believe MIL exchanged other people's presents to you- that was very rude and controlling. I agree with acharm and AcrossthePond that the people who gave you the gifts should be told what happened.

Again, I could have written this (except for the sisters. And they do sound like something out of a panto!)

My MIL is so snobbish,and belives that people are jealous of her "background" (which is not as posh as she projects) Her late husband used to refer to "peasants".