My MIL is snide and manipulating and I want to emigrate to get away ....

[looki]

I have made a big effort to 'get along' with her. I have put up with her racist, ignorant and snobbish remarks for six years.

I have smiled at her while she told me that her husband could never have owned a (specified) small business because he is an 'academic who needed to use his brain' while knowing my own father owned the same small business. I have listened to her while she recounted stories of throwing stones at neighbour's pets while their owners were out because she 'didn't like their owners'. There are a hundred other examples - the children's birthday parties must be held at her house, she knows best about every single thing in the whole fcuking world.

I have nodded and smiled until now as she is raising her game and is getting snide with my young children, 'advising' me that young children can be 'horrible and sneaky' and need to be 'taught to be obedient'. I have adorable girls but her view is that boys are better. I have bitten my tongue for the sake of my husband. I want to run away from her as far as possible but her son fails to see anything wrong in anything she says or does and I am at my wits end. I can cut down visiting but I cannot avoid it.

She will expect us to spend Christmas with her. I am already dreading it. We will be told to arrive on Christmas Day 'on time'. We will have to tell her a hundred times how good her dinner is, we will have to be profusely grateful for being somewhere we don't want to be. Her (single) daughters in their forties will be there. They are versions of her. They will ask me questions on her behalf and 'suggest' better ways I can do things with the children. When I say that I'm happy with how things are, they will smile and say yes yes but we are right. Her words, their mouths.

I don't have the energy for her or them anymore. I am tired. I am determined she will not have an undue influence over my kids!

Plan away! DO expect her to go batshit though so you need to stay strong. If you tell her you're not going, then you get bullied into changing your mind, she'll still throw it in your face every chance she gets so tell her you've made alternative plans and stick to it no matter what.

OP I usually cringe when I read the following phrase on MN but I'm going to trot it out anyway: Have you considered counselling or CBT? Just talking about the whole rotten lot of them with someone who understands will help you see things more clearly and help you see what your line in the sand is. It might give you the confidence to stand up to them.

I would be inclined to sit down with your DH, tell him you love him (assuming you do) and then ask him to listen to you without interruption for the sake of your marriage. Then tell him how you feel, really tell him and tell him how you feel when you see him being sulky, withdrawn and manipulative. It may give him a jolt of shock if he begins to connect his own behaviour with his mother's.

You have the right to live your life without the shadow of this woman hanging over you.

OK, so he said "Whatever you want".

What do you want? Part 1 is Christmas in your own house this year. So make it happen. Tell her that you're having Christmas at home this year, and that you would love for her to come over for Boxing Day lunch, or whatever you can face.

Then order up the turkey etc, buy some Christmas napkins, and stick to your guns.

People like this will never be nice about it when you defy them. But they don't have to be nice. You just have to be strong and stick to it.

The trouble is though, that being strong is hard. Op wants you all to say 'well just do this, and everyone will be happy and the outlook sunny'... well, it's not like that.

Dealing with a controlling MIL, SILs and sulking DH is HARD, op. But it has to be hard, to get to the other side. Why are you so afraid of everyone being angry with you? Why are you afraid of everyones moods and strops? Why so afraid of a bit of arguing, shouting, crying???

If your "DP" is this offhand about her behaviour, then he probably thinks you are being unreasonable. Thing is, it's quite clear that she is a massive, massive bitch. He just seems to find it "an endearing personality trait". That is his view. However, just because he finds manipulative, snide, bitchy behaviour endearing, doesn't mean that anyone else has to.

OP - The real issue here is figuring out what you want, and how far you are prepared to go to get it.

Your husband not backing you up on this, and sulking like a child, is frankly pathetic behaviour.

You can try and work through it with him, try explaining to him, whatever you want, but at the end of the day, if he decides that his loyalty lies with his mother, then you are screwed. You should be trying to work out here and now whether you would prepared to throw the towel in completely if you don't start getting some active support from him. Not begrudging, sulking, sneaky support (whilst no doubt bad mouthing you to his mother). But actual real support.

'The trouble is though, that being strong is hard'

So true captain. Nice, pleasant, agreeable people can struggle to deal with other people's manipulative behaviour. There can be a sense of shock, like you can't quite believe what you are hearing and seeing, and it can be easy to think that maybe you are being unreasonable and that she's just a bit eccentric or whatever. It's not as simple as 'just say no', although that is essentially what it does come down to.

So no, it won't be sunshine and roses OP, but basically you have to choose whose needs are most important here - yours or hers. And everyone on here is telling you that you need to put your own needs first. Hopefully your DP can take strength from you and you can start to detach from his mother and sisters together.

Agree with the PP who said your DH is as manipulative as his mum... Poor you!

Your DH is happy for you to be so unhappy because it's easier than break the pattern of his mother's behaviour. He silks because he's emotionally blackmailing you.
You have not said that he won't be seeing his mother & her winged monkeys on Xmas day. You have said that you & your dds won't be seeing them.
You are the mother in your family & what you say goes. It took me 12 years to work that one out. I finally stuffed when we had had my teetotal pita MIL for New Year 4 days again a couple of weeks after I'd had a breast lump removed. Her reply when I told her it was benign was to turn her head away & utter, "More's the pity."
I haven't spoken to her since. I made a decision 7 years ago. Initially DH was a bit off about it, but she carried on to him,sent her winged monkeys in & he's broken contact as well now. (It's a good job because my last lump was the real deal & I had to have a mastectomy. Could you imagine how she'd crow if she knew?)
So, your family, your rules. Let DH go & grovel, but you & your dds certainly don't have to!

Sulks, not silks

Not stuffed, twigged! HOW did kindle auto-correct that one?

Frances, your MIL said THAT when you'd had a lump removed? Christ - what a wicked wicked woman.
OP - agree with others, your main problem is your DH. He's got to stop being so spineless and craven when it comes to his mother. I think you have to get across to him that it could be damaging to your marriage is this carries on. Your MIL sounds a thoroughly nasty bit of work and as for throwing stones at pet animals ... hope she doesn't come near my cat, because she'd get it back with interest - half a brick!

My DMIL was not remotely as unpleasant as yours but she did favour one GC and continued to do it into their adult hood. I brushed it aside in an attempt to ensure the DGCs had a close relationship with their DGM, now I think that I should really have called her on it for the sake of the non-favourites, why should they be made to feel they were not liked and unwanted by her GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I should have limited contact and stopped the pretence.

Get tough OP for your DCs sakes.

Make a stand - and next time the 'maiden aunts' take dd out of the room, think of a job for her, or something you need to say to her and call her back in. You could also respond to their helpful remarks with 'well, mothers these days do x, y or z' if you feel up to it.

Sorry but I think telling looki to just take him at his word is just not going to work. Couples get locked into certain dynamics and only the 2 of them know what the other really means and "do what you want" is a classic example of this sort of distortion. Only the OP and her DH know what the repercussions would be IF she took him at his word, which she won't because probably "do what you want" means "but you will pay for the consequences......."

I think it's interesting that it wasn't until I asked looki about her r/ship with her DH that she said more about their relationship. It's fairly obvious that this is a problem between the OP and her DH and the MIL business is just one of the issues that causes the OP grief because of her DH's attitude and I suspect there might be many more.

IF looki could "get tough" as many of you are advocating, she would probably do it, but I don't think she can. Relationships are tricky things and I think we all probably put up with things that others wouldn't if that makes any sense. I think if there is no ability to compromise and for a couple to respect each other's views as equally valid, there will always be trouble.

A very wise person said to me once "If you can communicate well you can sort out anything, if you can't you can sort out nothing."

Bot very good grammar but is definitely right in my view.

What NanaNina has said is so true. These kind of comments are rarely meant to be taken at face value. Its a closed comment and is meant to test the OP.

It took me years to stand up to this kind of behaviour, and it was from a group within the IL family so very similar. It was VERY difficult at the time.

However, one thing to remember is that these people rarely change and will always think they are right. The one person who can change is the OP but it may take time to untangle the root of the problem. Only then can issues within the wider family be tackled.

And it will be extremely difficult to do this without parents to fall back on. Small steps, but firm ones.

My sympathies, my exs family were like this. I found the only way to deal with people like this is to say what you mean and stick to it. As a result most of exs family hate me although they cant admit it as then they would have to admit it is because i 'wont bow down to them' (exs words).

Yes old grandmama, she decided to break contact with the children, her gch at Christmas, bless!
Op, you have to stand up for yourself & your dds here.
You are the mother of your children & it's up to you to protect them from this type of abuse.....& protect yourself.

it's always easy to find other people's behaviour amusing when you're not on the receiving end of it...I expect DP is goldenballs in your mils eyes. stick to your guns OP - you can do it even with the sulking. which is very unattractive. who ever fancies a sulker? bleugh

Me again.......I sometimes get frustrated at posters who keep on and on telling an OP to take a certain course of action (ok I know the OP obviously opens up the debate) especially when the OP has stopped posting.

The problem with these open forums is that we know so little about the r/ship, the dynamics of it, the cause of conflict, the way it's handled, who is the dominant partner etc etc etc.

It's just not that easy to "get tough" or "stick to your guns" - dynamics between a couple get built up over time and then they tend to get set in concrete. Very often one partner will give in to the other for a variety of reasons, far too numerous to go into here. Yes the sulking is passive aggressive behaviour and it sounds like it could be learned behaviour, but we all learn behaviour, mostly from our parents, and we carry what we learned as kids into our adult life. I'm not excusing the sulker but as humans we employ a whole range of behaviours in a relationship, some conscious and some unconscious.

I am convinced this isn't a MIL issue - it's an issue between the OP and her DH, though I suspect the OP felt it easier to post about the MIL and I'm sure she is rightly pissed off with her - she sounds horrendous.

As nevergrowingup says - it took her years to stand up to this kind of behaviour, and the longer the relationship continues the more entrenched the dynamics become, and the more and more difficult it is to change. I often think relationships are like a play - we play our respective roles (mostly unconsciously) and both players have well rehearsed "lines" and are word perfect - also I think they both have a good idea how Act 1 - Scene 1 will end. The OP gave us a perfect example of the ending of Act 1 - Scene 1 - what we don't know (and they do) is what happened in Act 1 - Scene 2, and as for the finale - GOKs!

I don't mean to cause any offence here but all you ladies advocating "take him at his word" "stand up to him" "get touch" etc - I can't help wondering about the dynamics of your own r/ships - can you honestly say that you "put up" with things that annoy you for whatever reason? I very much doubt it - or the boot could be on the other foot "does your DH put up with your behaviour for whatever reason..." Sorry this is getting very clumsy - it's late and I'm tired.

The thing that a lot of us forget if that A can't change B's behaviour but A can change their behaviour towards B and this will bring about change - not necessarily for the better, but it will change the dynamic.

Or put more simply "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got." Easy peasy - yeah right - if only! The breakdown on marriages/partnerships is nudging 50% - food for thought?

OP I'm sorry if I'm making assumptions about you - I don't mean to - I'm just a bit tired (not only on this thread) of people just trotting out the usual lines..........maybe I'm too old for MN!

NanaNina - I think what you're saying is really important, actually.

Sometimes I think we post vicariously on the relationships forum, and urge people to tell it like it is, on our own behalf. It's so easy to see the flaws in someone else's relationship, but no-one's relationship is exactly right, and there are always behaviours we accept from the person/people we live with, that we don't exactly love, because no-one's perfect.

looki - maybe accept that you're going to be having Christmas at MIL's this year, but start to give some thought to how things are going to change in the New Year.

You don't have to accept her behaviour, and you don't have to accept your DH's behaviour either. Making the changes might not be easy, but then neither is the status quo.

You don't owe anyone here anything - you only owe yourself and your DC. Do it in your own time. Good luck.

Thanks everyone for your replies. I appreciate them and am overwhelmed there are so many of them, too many to go back and mention individually.

To answer why I was reluctant to say/do anything to change the behaviour is not easy to answer. I had a terrific relationship with my grandmother, she raised me for some time and I hoped my girls would form a similar relationship with their grandmother.

As time developed, I realised more and more what their grandmother is really like. As I said in my original post, she is quite a manipulative woman and it was only through time that I began to see her true colours. When my girls arrived, I got to see a scaled up version of her. I find her and what she says and does makes me feel quite sick in my stomach.

It only dawned on my recently that every single time we visit, one of the daughters leaves the room with my daughter. I am annoyed at myself for this delayed realisation. It may be nothing at all but it makes me feel uneasy and I will not allow it to happen again. They continuously suggest taking the girls on 'days out alone'. I have been steadfast in refusing to allow this citing the children are too young. I can continue to make excuses but I'd rather knock the suggestions on its head once and for all. While I want to put an end to them, I also don't want my children to look at me in future years and think that I didn't let them develop a relationship with their aunts. I can continue to make excuses but I'd rather knock the suggestions on its head once and for all.

I have no doubt whatsoever, that she actively dislikes me by now, especially as I curtail her access to her grandchildren. That is fine with me. I even take a certain amount of satisfaction from knowing that. Two relatives of hers recently told me (on different occasions) to be careful about what I say to her and not to tell her too much. This obviously stemmed from her repeating back her version and many opinions of something I had said. I'm unsure what it could have been as I'm not open with her at all, but whatever it is, it hardly matters.

She behaves in a matriarchal fashion but from my observations, her husband is the one in control of how they live, holiday, interior decorate etc. Somehow this bothers me a great deal and I can't put my finger on why. He appears to be quite a downtrodden man who puts up with her ways but now knowing them fully, I think he is firmly in control. Perhaps I am concerned my DH will turn into either one or the other of them. Perhaps it is inevitable he is already a mix of both. This concerns me. Our relationship is hard to sum up. On paper things look good but in hindsight I think I value my own time and freedom a great deal and married with two young children is not living the dream!

Perhaps ultimately I am aware that should anything happen to me and/or DH that they are the children's family. This worry obviously comes due to my own circumstances. I know that I have to do the right thing for now and not the unforeseen future.

I am aware I have gone off on all sorts of tangents in this post and veered away from my original question which was as one poster pointed out, is there a way to say what I want/need/must say which doesn't make me look like the unreasonable one. It seems there isn't so I will do what needs to be done. I feel quite relieved that the decision has been made.

Thank you all.

Perhaps I am concerned my DH will turn into either one or the other of them. Perhaps it is inevitable he is already a mix of both. This concerns me

From my own experience over the years/have seen, i find that amongst our parents generation there is usually a very strong traditional set up/dynamic of roles within the personal relationship between the couple and within the home/family.

your fil seems to be in the role of 'provider' when it comes to finances and material security, hence why you see him being firmly...in control of how they live, holiday, interior decorate etc . A person with this kind of control can use their position to abuse/control the other person or indeed the whole family (as happened in mine when growing up). You can probably sense/your gut instinct tells you that this imbalance of power is wrong. So the male is in charge of/controls what happens/people see on the surface.

Your mil seems to have taken on the role of 'matriarch' because that is all that is left within the traditional setup, looking after the home/children/family and personal relationships have become her forte and it's probably the only area in her life where she actually feels in control and powerful. She has used this position of control and power to her own advantage hence why her daughters are mini-me versions of her and her son is an insipid mummy's boy who cannot be his own man (i apologise if that sounds insulting to you).
Through controlling her children by making them submissive to her will, she in effect has control over her husband which may be why he appears to be quite a downtrodden man who puts up with her ways. You see, even though he can control the financial/material side of things he knows he will lose out (as in children will definitely take their mothers side) if he does anything that rocks or destroys the family/marriage.

you are right to be concerned. from your posts so far, i can see that your dh is already exhibiting the passive aggressive attitude/behaviour of his mother and the lack of support he gives you (he has been conditioned to believe that his mother is ALWAYS No.1 and every other woman comes second - including his wife). He's passing the responsibility/maintenance of personal relationships within the family to you because he sees that as 'your area' (mirroring what he learnt form his mother) but he will NOT support you emotionally/physically/verbally etc if you make a decision that he disagrees with or you do something that he does not like. his sulking etc is a manifestation of being brought up as a spoilt and selfish brat who thinks the whole world revolves around him.
i feel all the siblings are 'victims' of their mother in a sense and her hold over them is very strong. They do not actually see you as 'one of them' but your children are definitely 'fair game' to them which is why you see the aunts taking your dd off on her own - it's a way of 'bonding' for them - which in their case probably means dripping poison in her ear/getting information out of her/creating a 'special' relationship which is designed to deliberately undermine yours with your own children. That is dangerous OP, these kinds of people are very sly, sneaky and underhand in how they go about playing divide and conquer, something you have only just realised It only dawned on me recently that every single time we visit, one of the daughters leaves the room with my daughter. I am annoyed at myself for this delayed realisation

getting him to recognise or even acknowledge any of this is going to be tough if nigh on impossible depending on just how deeply conditioned he is. getting him to DO anything about it....mmmmmm........

i think your only option here is for YOU to take control of the wellbeing of your children/family. YOU decide what is acceptable behaviour and what you do with regards to things like birthdays/christmas's etc and FOLLOW THROUGH - no matter how much they tantrum/kick off or mil's histrionics. This isn't easy, you will not only feel but most probably will be 'on your own' in this with only your friends as support - and MN of course

sorry for the long post - it didn't sound that long when i thought it!

My DCs didn't see much of DGMs as they weren't near.
I hadn't seen my DGM as she wasn't near.

The DCs won't think they are missing out unless they are told that they are. My DCs never thought about it nor did I. And we are all quite well adjusted happy people despite not seeing much of rellies.

Don't think you are somehow failing them by keeping them apart.

I wonder if DH is copying his father in some of his behavior, that would be very likely to happen, we copy what we experience when we are children.

If DCs are old enough I would 'accidentally' let them hear you mention the stone throwing incident or similar so that they have an idea why you dislike DGM, otherwise they are only hearing the ILs version of things and seeing their DF's annoyance at your attitude. You being a nice person are probably protecting them from your feelings about DGM and why you have them. So they will be getting a skewed view.

While I want to put an end to them, I also don't want my children to look at me in future years and think that I didn't let them develop a relationship with their aunts - does anyone ever do this?

I grew up without seeing my extended family - my mum is one of 10 dc and my dad one of 6; we never saw any of them. Mostly due to logistics (different country, mostly) but also because my parents just didn't see them much. My own dc never see my father (toxic) or my sister (ditto) or my brother (uninterested) - we keep in contact with my mum and my MIL, that's it. DC have never looked at me and said I haven't let them have a relationship with their aunt, or grandfather!!!!!!!!! (DC are mid-teens-early 20s now)

You will have your own family, OP and dc have friends I assume. It's what would happen if you did emigrate....