Problems with family relationships - no one to talk to

[EvenFlow]

I have problems with the relationship between my DM and DH. They do not really get on and although they don't exactly argue and are civil to each other, it is very stressful when she visits. I can't really talk to anyone about it close as I don't want to drag my family into it, although I'd otherwise talk to my sister. We've just had a not great weekend while DM was visiting and I'm feeling pretty upset about some things she said about DH. Sorry, this might be long but I am all over the place and struggling to know exactly what I'm upset about.

There is background to this. DH and I have two DCs (and I'm pregnant with DC3) and we have problems between us agreeing over discipline. He thinks I am too lax and that therefore DCs are badly behaved, I think he is too strict and don't like the way he raises his voice at the DCs (aged 4 and 6) when they are not behaving well (eg playing up at mealtimes, talking back, typical child behaviour) and we end up having arguments because he feels I leave all the 'discipline' to him which makes him the bad guy, and I feel he is too shouty and negative with them, or gives too severe punishments, so find it hard to back him up sometimes. He also tells them to 'shut up' from time to time which I don't like. He has strong views on everything and very high standards about how young children should behave (IMO) eg DS (6) is continually stopped from fidgeting which to me, is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest except that it can be annoying.

When DM is here this conflict worsens because she doesn't like him raising his voice either and will step in and make comments that are undermining eg this weekend he said to DD something like 'stop messing around and get on with eating your dinner' and DM said quickly 'oh, you've still got something in your mouth, haven't you?' (the problem is DD is a very slow eater and will sit just holding food in her mouth, she'd had a tiny bit of broccoli in there for ages). Another example, DD was complaining about something and not getting into her carseat and DH had said if she didn't get in properly she wouldn't have her promised chocolate buttons when we got back, and DM said 'come on DD, we don't want Daddy to tell you you can't have your chocolate buttons when we get in' - there are many other instances of this and it makes DH, understandably I think, very angry and he really has to bite his tongue.

When DH was out DM said to me she did not like the way he shouted at the DCs (DD had been made to get down from the table because she was answering back to him and refusing to chew her food) and she said it made her feel sick and was cruelty and abuse. As much as DH and I disagree over discipline and I think he is too strong with the DCs and raises his voice too much, I feel deeply upset by this. This is the man I love and have chosen to have children with and he is a loving, caring father who spends as much time as he can with his DCs, teaches them and parents them in the way he thinks is most likely to ensure their success in the world as adults. He loves those children more than anything and always puts them first. I don't agree with all his methods, and we have work to do between us to sort that out. He does not only shout at them to try and discipline them (eg on Sunday DS had spat all over the trampoline (part of a game - don't ask!) so DH took him off it and got him a bucket of hot soapy water and a cloth to clean it, and told him he had done a good job of that and that he could use the trampoline but as long as there was an adult out there with him. And he does acknowledge that he raises his voice too much sometimes and tries not to do that.

But he is not cruel or abusive, in my view (or I wouldn't be here). And I feel really upset by that comment which of course, I can't repeat to DH (I think he would never speak to her again).

I am due to have DC3 late December and DM was going to be on hand to come and help after he is born (it will be an ELCS and I won't be able to drive the other DCs to school the first couple of weeks in Jan) but I don't think it's workable. I think it's going to cause too much stress and I don't think I want it. Although on Saturday I did actually feel that DH had been too strict with DD over dinner, after the conversation with DM and what she said I feel that she went too far with what she said. Also the change of atmosphere after she left was a relief.

I don't really know what I'm asking here. I think I'm trying to work out what the problems are, and what to do about them and my mind is going round in circles and I just keep coming back to the 'cruel and abusive' comment and feeling really angry about it and hurt on DH's behalf.

Regardless of the circs it's not her place to correct his parenting ESP in front of the kids ffs. Cruel and abusive sounds ott to me. She needs to keep her beak out because she is undermining him in front of the kids. I am similar to your dh in that I'm a believer in clear boundaries in the way he seems to be - though my kids were considered raucous (grownup now). You can't please everybody - what was my parenting, too loose or too tight? You'll get people sniffing on the sidelines, huffing and puffing, making judgements, whatever you do. She needs to stfu in front of the kids,, she isn't the parenting guru extraordinaire and has to learn to keep her opinions to herself ESP in front of the kids (ffs)

She's being interfering, basically (imo)

Thanks. That's helpful perspective. I'm beginning to lose sight of who is right and wrong here. I think I need to talk to her about the undermining comments.

I think she really dislikes DH, although on the surface she presents herself as open minded, friendly etc. But she has made a few comments lately that I thought were unnecessary. He has always said she does not like him, and I haven't agreed, but I wonder now (he's better at 'reading people' than I am).

I also feel like I SHOULD tell DH what she said. I would want to know if his family had said that about me.

But I think it would cause WW3 or at least he would very probably refuse to see her unless he had to. I think he would be very, very angry. Rightly so. I don't want to hinder her relationship with the DCs, who love her - and she is good with them. I wonder if it's better to struggle on in politeness and become 'better' at discipline myself so that it's less of an issue.

Did he shout the 'stop messing around' comment to your dd?
I can understand her blanching, if so - but wrong wrong wrong to step in and interfere. Talk to him privately, by all means, but don't undermine him in front of the kids.

Surely they need to talk together - let her say it to him, not you.

Ww3? Is it that bad?

She needs to keep her nose out. Tell her so.

I can't see much in your husbands disciplining of the children that is very wrong. Children need discipline and boundaries to help them thrive. Raising your voice isn't ideal maybe, but hasn't almost every parent down this at some stage? He has acknowledged that he shouldn't raise his voice too much, which is half the battle.

Your mum on the other hand is seriously interfering and over stepping the mark. I honestly don't know how your husband and managed to stay calm and not tell her to get lost. I would have.

Why would she blanche at "stop messing around"? I'm not being difficult, I just don't think it's that bad. Maybe I was a terrible parent too.

You say you are deeply upset by the way your DH raises his voice to the DCs and is too strict. You are describing frequent arguments over it. He tells them to shut up and you're made out to be a bad parent.. 'too lax'. However, your mother appears to share your parenting techniques - which is understandable as she's your template for parenting. If I was your mother, I would not be too fond of any son-in-law that made my DD 'deeply upset'.

Seems that everyone is expected to tippy-toe around the strict guy. You, the DCs, your DM... no-one's allowed to challenge him but the same is not true in reverse. Not seeing how this is a fair situation.

Do you discipline at all op? It sounds like you do leave it to your husband to do and that's not really fair. I would hate to be seen as the "bad" parent all the time.

I think you do need to step up to the mark and hand out some discipline too. It's part of being a parent and raising well balanced and socially aware people.

But Cognito the op said she does leave all the discipline to him. That's not on.

Fireside - blanching because it was shouted, not necessarily what was said.

Some people never shout and find shouting really upsetting - hence blanching at shouting.

OP doesn't say she leaves all the discipline to him, she said he feels as though she does because she struggles to back up punishments that she doesn't agree with. Why should his parenting style be the default? At least two other adults who also love and care about the DCs don't agree with it and think he is too harsh.

Blanching if it was shouted

She says she leaves this 'discipline'.... by which I read the shouting, ultimatums, severe punishments and other stern tactics.... to him. And I suspect that only happens because she gets accused of being 'lax' if she's OK with a 6yo fidgeting and is frightened of igniting 'WW3'

I'm just getting a strong whiff of 'bullyboy' here. Kids, women, old ladies..... the word 'angry' is getting mentioned far too often for my liking.

Oh I don't know. Maybe we are just a shouty family and would horrify more gentle souls.

It's quite hard from the information given to make a judgement on whether the op is too laid back or her husband too strict. It's pretty clear that the mil should just keep her thoughts to herself. It's not helping.

Maybe WW3 is a bit strong - I mean it would cause a rift, I think, and he would be angry. She did say she wondered whether she should speak to him about her concerns, but I think it would do more harm than good and told her not to. She does tend to come and offer lots of advice based on supernanny etc and actually she has told me about doing this to someone else who had a dog based on a dog training TV programme or something. Fine, it's sort of useful to hear another perspective but still ...

DH was raising his voice at DD quite a lot over dinner, getting angry with her for refusing to eat or taking ages to eat little bits, DD was crying, was sent to sit on the stairs and he shouted through that she must finish her mouthful and come back to the table to eat. He also likes them to finish what is on their plate (he tries to give them the right amount for their age/appetite) so that food isn't wasted, but often DD appeals to me if she feels she can't finish and I'm not comfortable with forcing her to sit eating when she has had enough and we end up in arguments about that (which we did this weekend).

It can be a stressful atmosphere when he is like that with either of them so I understand why she didn't like it. He had apparently been similar with DS at breakfast (I had gone for a shower) and he is often threatening to take their meal away if they don't stop eating with their mouths open, dropping food everywhere, shovelling it in (DS) when they've been reminded repeatedly not to. They have never actually had anything more than the endy but of a slice of cake or something taken off them though - although they are sometimes told to get down from the table and come back after a time out to finish. It's more in the tone of voice than the message, I think.

But DH is not cruel or abusive by a long stretch. Not at all.

He's horrible to those kids and you're as frightened of his anger as they are. No wonder your DM is sticking up for them

Threats, shouting, forcing kids to eat what's on their plate, making them cry.....

Bullying

You don't think what you are describing happening at mealtimes is cruel? Thank goodness your DM stood up for them, someone has to.

He does sound too erm... strong, esp over food.

Easy mistake to make but rod/back to make food an issue. Rod for kids back, mostly. Huge mistake.

Parenting classes op. He needs to learn some parenting techniques. He's probably parenting the way he was parented, watered down (he feels) but he is sounding like a bully. Sorry.

To be honest my dh sat me down and said if you were not so lax It would not get to the point where I need to shout or give a strict punishment when I sat down and thought after initially having a go at him I realised he was right my Ds is 4 my dsd is 9 and I in no way want him to behave like she does because her mum is very lax with her. I realised I needed to buck up my ideas and instead of ignoring the bad behaviour or letting little things go I.e messing about with his cutlery or fidgeting things I thought really I shouldn't have ago at he pointed out do you think he will be allowed to do that at school and if not why not correct them now instead of it becoming a battle later on.
After doing this for a few months I now only have to look at Ds and say stop it please and he does where as before we would get tantrums and an hour crying if he got told off I realised if I carried on I would have made a rod for my own back we also discussed what things were important to us with regards how we wanted the. To behave and came up with ways we were both happy with how it would be handled in future and if we disagree about a punishment we never discuss it when they are present always when they are in bed and doors are shut so they cannot play on it.
Maybe come up with a list or some sort of agreement and I do agree now table manners are important also if my dm said horrible things about my dh or undermined his parenting I would be having serious words with her and explain they are our children and are being brought up how we want to bring them up please do not contradict that otherwise you will be unable to visit.
Sorry for the essay but it was a very big thing between us at the beginning if the year and to find that my dh was thinking of leaving as he did not see that I would compromise or understand was very hurtful and I am happy I did realise as my Ds is always being commented on how well behaved,polite and helpful he is.

I do discipline DCs and I don't leave it all to him. It just tends to be that he steps in earlier and picks up on things before I would. As others say, he also hands out bigger punishments than I would/do.

Or I will do it by speaking to them about whatever it is and will give consequences eg losing TV or tablet time (and follow through with these) but he feels that isn't effective enough and that they don't respect me.

I think we end up pushing each other into the 'too lax'/'too strict' corners and end up at odds with each other. We need a common set of rules and ways of handling things.

I don't like shouting at all and didn't grow up in a shouty family but I think he did.

Cogito that is how I see it re the tactics that he employs that I am not comfortable with so I don't use (eg sometimes DD hits out at me. I will give her a no TV type consequence for this and talk to her about it and she will apologise, he thinks she should be sent to bed for the rest of the day). But it does mean that they will obey him because they really don't like him being cross with them, whereas me being cross with them doesn't bother them too much and they definitely play up more for me. I rely on them wanting to behave well by setting expectations and trying to show them how to live up to those - but I do definitely need a more successful way of 'disciplining' them (by which I mean teaching them appropriate behaviour).

I think you need to sort out an alternative for when DC3 arrives - can someone from school give them a lift (its only a few weeks, and lots of people are willing to help in such a situation).

Maybe you and your DH need to take some time out to do a parenting course, get some counselling or even a marriage course. You need to discuss in a relaxed way your differing attitudes and how you will work ahead.

Your DM needs to butt out - sorry but she shouldn't interfere in someone elses marriage/family life like this. I may not agree with all your DH does, but it isn't abusive, from what you've said. If your DM truly thinks it is then she has problems herself.

On the other hand have you minimised your DH's behaviour?

"But it does mean that they will obey him because they really don't like him being cross with them"

Frightened kids are more obedient, yes. They are 6yo and 4yo and he's turning your home into an army camp. What's his own father like? What's his background?

There is a middle ground between letting DCs do as they please and frightening them to death.