Problems with family relationships - no one to talk to

[EvenFlow]

I have problems with the relationship between my DM and DH. They do not really get on and although they don't exactly argue and are civil to each other, it is very stressful when she visits. I can't really talk to anyone about it close as I don't want to drag my family into it, although I'd otherwise talk to my sister. We've just had a not great weekend while DM was visiting and I'm feeling pretty upset about some things she said about DH. Sorry, this might be long but I am all over the place and struggling to know exactly what I'm upset about.

There is background to this. DH and I have two DCs (and I'm pregnant with DC3) and we have problems between us agreeing over discipline. He thinks I am too lax and that therefore DCs are badly behaved, I think he is too strict and don't like the way he raises his voice at the DCs (aged 4 and 6) when they are not behaving well (eg playing up at mealtimes, talking back, typical child behaviour) and we end up having arguments because he feels I leave all the 'discipline' to him which makes him the bad guy, and I feel he is too shouty and negative with them, or gives too severe punishments, so find it hard to back him up sometimes. He also tells them to 'shut up' from time to time which I don't like. He has strong views on everything and very high standards about how young children should behave (IMO) eg DS (6) is continually stopped from fidgeting which to me, is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest except that it can be annoying.

When DM is here this conflict worsens because she doesn't like him raising his voice either and will step in and make comments that are undermining eg this weekend he said to DD something like 'stop messing around and get on with eating your dinner' and DM said quickly 'oh, you've still got something in your mouth, haven't you?' (the problem is DD is a very slow eater and will sit just holding food in her mouth, she'd had a tiny bit of broccoli in there for ages). Another example, DD was complaining about something and not getting into her carseat and DH had said if she didn't get in properly she wouldn't have her promised chocolate buttons when we got back, and DM said 'come on DD, we don't want Daddy to tell you you can't have your chocolate buttons when we get in' - there are many other instances of this and it makes DH, understandably I think, very angry and he really has to bite his tongue.

When DH was out DM said to me she did not like the way he shouted at the DCs (DD had been made to get down from the table because she was answering back to him and refusing to chew her food) and she said it made her feel sick and was cruelty and abuse. As much as DH and I disagree over discipline and I think he is too strong with the DCs and raises his voice too much, I feel deeply upset by this. This is the man I love and have chosen to have children with and he is a loving, caring father who spends as much time as he can with his DCs, teaches them and parents them in the way he thinks is most likely to ensure their success in the world as adults. He loves those children more than anything and always puts them first. I don't agree with all his methods, and we have work to do between us to sort that out. He does not only shout at them to try and discipline them (eg on Sunday DS had spat all over the trampoline (part of a game - don't ask!) so DH took him off it and got him a bucket of hot soapy water and a cloth to clean it, and told him he had done a good job of that and that he could use the trampoline but as long as there was an adult out there with him. And he does acknowledge that he raises his voice too much sometimes and tries not to do that.

But he is not cruel or abusive, in my view (or I wouldn't be here). And I feel really upset by that comment which of course, I can't repeat to DH (I think he would never speak to her again).

I am due to have DC3 late December and DM was going to be on hand to come and help after he is born (it will be an ELCS and I won't be able to drive the other DCs to school the first couple of weeks in Jan) but I don't think it's workable. I think it's going to cause too much stress and I don't think I want it. Although on Saturday I did actually feel that DH had been too strict with DD over dinner, after the conversation with DM and what she said I feel that she went too far with what she said. Also the change of atmosphere after she left was a relief.

I don't really know what I'm asking here. I think I'm trying to work out what the problems are, and what to do about them and my mind is going round in circles and I just keep coming back to the 'cruel and abusive' comment and feeling really angry about it and hurt on DH's behalf.

I was parented like this (much worse, actually, but that sort of thing). When it was my turn to parent I was much too strict. I had to learn how to parent compassionately and appropriately. I learnt quickly, of course - I'm sure if your dh realised he would similarly about turn his parenting approach.

Springy I could have written the same thing.
My father was a horrible bully and nasty at the table. Incidently my brother has a nervous tic and my sister had an eating disorder.
I am so glad I don't treat my children in this way. It's not a gulag. And they still manage to be polite and well mannered.

I feel anxious just reading about mealtimes with your husband. How must your children feel?

It takes courage to stand up to a bully and it sounds like your mother is prepared to do it on your behalf.

Bloody hell, he shouts at a 4 year old?
He needs to learn it control his anger.

I feel anxious just reading about mealtimes with your husband.

Me too

I physically wouldn't be able to eat my food if my DH was behaving like that towards my DC.

Interesting, especially what you said about how you were parented springydaffs

He has not raised his voice with DCs since DM went and has reverted to a 'playful but calm' parenting style which I much, much prefer. He must have been thinking about it. I think he knew it was getting too stressful and in more recent times I have been a lot more vocal about calming things down etc. I know he actually doesn't like raising his voice to them, I think it is just his default if you see what I mean, he doesn't have another way. I was reading the Calmer Easier Happier book last night and he was asking me if it was any good. I hope at some point I will persuade him to read it as it makes a lot of sense and gives a sensible alternative (compassionately as said above). I'll certainly be revisiting it and using the techniques myself as I know DCs respond well to descriptive praise and also generally to an approach where they are not 'in trouble' for X or Y but we are resolving a situation together.

We do need to spend more time with other similar aged children as whenever we do he always says something like 'it's good to know they are just like our children' and he sees other children 'misbehaving' and seeing how their parents react. Fortunately we are doing that twice this weekend.

And yes, when he does raise his voice at the table I can't eat either and have told him so. I am not afraid of him being angry and openly tell him to calm down, I am more weary of it and wish he would just stop it when he is in that frame of mind as it doesn't help anyone. I refuse to discuss issues with him when he is raising his voice and tell him there is no point until he has calmed down and generally that works. He is definitely less inclined to raise his voice these days than say a couple of years ago but we have work to do.

springydaffs what was it that got you to change your approach/how did you do it? Was it something you realised by yourself or through someone else?

I'm not answering for Springy, just adding my two penn'orth. I was raised in a very similar manner to Springy and, despite having no children of my own, would never have inflicted the same dictatorial style on other children. I've been that child, and know what a family home full of fear feels like. One of the families I nannied for required that their children be bullied to school, to do their homework, etc, and I felt awful. I quit after a few months.

As I've said, I'm not particularly soft on children but had been exposed to plenty of people who managed DC in a more compassionate & respectful manner - like your children, I had a mother whose parenting style was much healthier, but who was browbeaten by my father - and there are friends' parents, good teachers, and so on. Fortunately, the "village to raise a child" does not consist entirely of petty dictators. It was very easy to adopt better methods - because I was highly motivated by my own miserable experience.

In recent years, parenting theory has improved vastly and I'm impressed by books such as "How to Talk". With reference to that book, I very much regret the many times I've told a child they weren't cold, it didn't hurt, etc. But I emphatically was not the 'parent' my father was. Neither did my brothers follow his style. (My sister, though, married a similar man and still can't see what she did wrong )

I'm not sure you'll be able to persuade him to alter his methods. He knows his father intimidated him, yet chooses to intimidate his own DC. This is an active choice on his part. Your best bet, I suspect, would be to discuss this with his own parents, but I've got a feeling you're afraid to?

Meanwhile, every year you spend trying to alter the man you married is another year your children live with fear.

While I'm here, could you please let us know whether your H's proposed care plan following your CS seems reasonable?

A few little things for your consideration:

• My dad was killed in an accident. We were all shocked & upset, but only my mother was sad.
• When we reviewed our childhoods before his funeral, the overwhelming impression was not "laughter, sunny holidays, safety". It was "fear".
• Each one of us developed an eating disorder, various other psychological problems, and serious issues of self-worth.

• A four-year-old is an individual human with only four years' life experience. It's not necessary or appropriate for such an individual to learn how to be an adult. Childhood is for learning how to be a child.
• The fun in parenting comes from engaging in this process with them, not restricting it!

Hi Garlic

That's useful input, thanks. My husband doesn't really wish to follow his parents style, from what he says and also from some of his actions, and it is clear to me at least that he tries to parent the children more gently than his parents did him - but as I said above I think he falls back to the 'do as I say' default when frustrated by the DCs. He is also an intelligent man and is always prepared to try doing something differently if it might have a more successful outcome. So I do hope we can change as parents - I don't want to change him as such, but there is no reason why he can't change himself - he has often asked me to show him a more successful way of raising our DCs if I don't like his approach. Because he is an extremely rational and practical thinker, the logic argued in the books we have discussed here I think would make sense to him.

As to the CS, it's not his plan not to have my mum here, it was me thinking I was not sure if it would be best for me given the stress of the weekend just gone. We haven't made any fixed plans yet as we don't know what the date will be. He will not leave me without suitable care, I know that, so he would either take more time off himself or insist that I do get my mum down or ask his family to help.

Without wanting to sound apologist, as is the case with these threads, this is a fairly one sided picture here of a problem area (I agree it is a significant problem) as this is the bit I need to think through resolving.

Garlic cross posted with your second post but I completely agree with the last two points.

I don't think it is so bad for our DCs as it was for you but I do worry about the self worth points. DH has said himself he mainly remembers what he did wrong as a child and I know he doesn't want that for our DCs. He also grew up not very confident.

For me, it needs to change so that we lose these negative aspects of his parenting because I think they cast a long shadow. There is a lot of good there though which is why I feel positive.

Thanks for your replies :) Agreed that your husband is nowhere near the psychopath I had for a father, but the minutiae of emotional/psychological abuse are the same, and this tends to be what damages a child's identity (not quite the right word.)

there is no reason why he can't change himself - he has often asked me to show him a more successful way of raising our DCs if I don't like his approach. Because he is an extremely rational and practical thinker, the logic argued in the books we have discussed here I think would make sense to him.

This is really encouraging! Good luck! Get going with it

I'm still concerned about you after your new baby arrives. Perhaps the next conversation with DH should lead to a more in-depth 3-way discussion with your mother? I can imagine you're not looking forward much to these talks ... but, if you're right and your project's successful, it could lead to a mauch warmer, happier, family all round. It's worthwhile.

Let us know how things play out, won't you?

You may want to point out to your dh that the thing about shouting as a main method of disciplining, apart from being generally unpleasant, is that it is susceptible to the law of diminishing returns.

The more you shout at children, the more they tune it out and treat it like background noise. So as they get older, he will need to shout louder and louder in order to achieve the same effect. Which will create a horrid family atmosphere for everyone, and will ultimately cause the kids to lose respect for him as they get bigger and less easily intimidated. And eventually you/he will end up with children/teenagers who have spent years learning that shouting is the best way of getting their point across, and who will therefore, not unreasonably, be inclined to shout (and quite possibly swear) right back at him.

Obviously with small children there are times when voices will be raised, but you don't want to make it the main form of communication, for their sakes and for yours. It is possible to teach children that the best way of getting their voices heard is by taking a deep breath and stating your point calmly and reasonably, but you can only achieve this by putting in the effort in to model it for them, over and over again.

I would also add that kids are very good at distinguishing between the times when parents are being strict about something that feel strongly about (whether table manners, tidy bedrooms or whatever) and when parents are just using discipline as a way of venting their own bad feelings. The former they will respect, as long as you enforce the rules reasonably, consistently and calmly (even if they end up rolling their eyes a bit). But if your dh is using minor misbehaviour as a lightning rod for his own bad temper and irritability, then it will end badly for him and for them

He needs to picture your kids in ten years' time as teenagers, when they will be as big and as articulate as he is. Then he should think very carefully about what kind of relationship he wants to have with them then, and how he's planning to get there from where he is now.

Thank you Garlic and Gregor

I agree about the law of diminishing returns and the long term, absolutely. DD (4) already stamps and shouts back if shouted at. DS is a milder character like me. I think the only way to encourage her out of that is not to shout at her at all. And it is clear to me that they do listen better when they are talked to calmly about whatever it is. I have also noticed generally that the best behaved children I see are the ones with calm, non-shouty parents.

Excellent posts garlic and put far better than I could have. I have four siblings and only two now speak to my dad - and that's intermittent.

Sadly we often swop war stories about our childhood. The culture of fear has never really left us and has deeply shaped us all. Also we all blame our mum,although we aren't vocal about it, for not stepping in. I know in his dotage he regrets his behaviour. It's sad really.

I'd have to say that the conditioning often plays out without one even realising it, until the evidence, or conscience, speaks for itself. I would have said I would never in a million years put my children through what I went through - and I didn't, it was watered down (as my father's parental approach was watered down from what he had experienced from his father). But it had the same flavour. I think it's called internalising (?) and we can all think of examples of abuse being repeated down the generations.

I learnt very, very quickly. Perhaps your dh is alarmed by the evidence before him op, recognises the flavour of what he has been doing. Perhaps it isn't until you see it playing out at your own hands that you first get a clue that what happened to you as a child wasn't right.

Thank you, wanna :) I really agree with springy there, this could be quite a frightening area for Mr. Even and it would be kind of natural for him not to want to 'look'. Contemporary books may be a massive help, as they are really not at all blaming.