Problems with family relationships - no one to talk to

[EvenFlow]

I have problems with the relationship between my DM and DH. They do not really get on and although they don't exactly argue and are civil to each other, it is very stressful when she visits. I can't really talk to anyone about it close as I don't want to drag my family into it, although I'd otherwise talk to my sister. We've just had a not great weekend while DM was visiting and I'm feeling pretty upset about some things she said about DH. Sorry, this might be long but I am all over the place and struggling to know exactly what I'm upset about.

There is background to this. DH and I have two DCs (and I'm pregnant with DC3) and we have problems between us agreeing over discipline. He thinks I am too lax and that therefore DCs are badly behaved, I think he is too strict and don't like the way he raises his voice at the DCs (aged 4 and 6) when they are not behaving well (eg playing up at mealtimes, talking back, typical child behaviour) and we end up having arguments because he feels I leave all the 'discipline' to him which makes him the bad guy, and I feel he is too shouty and negative with them, or gives too severe punishments, so find it hard to back him up sometimes. He also tells them to 'shut up' from time to time which I don't like. He has strong views on everything and very high standards about how young children should behave (IMO) eg DS (6) is continually stopped from fidgeting which to me, is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest except that it can be annoying.

When DM is here this conflict worsens because she doesn't like him raising his voice either and will step in and make comments that are undermining eg this weekend he said to DD something like 'stop messing around and get on with eating your dinner' and DM said quickly 'oh, you've still got something in your mouth, haven't you?' (the problem is DD is a very slow eater and will sit just holding food in her mouth, she'd had a tiny bit of broccoli in there for ages). Another example, DD was complaining about something and not getting into her carseat and DH had said if she didn't get in properly she wouldn't have her promised chocolate buttons when we got back, and DM said 'come on DD, we don't want Daddy to tell you you can't have your chocolate buttons when we get in' - there are many other instances of this and it makes DH, understandably I think, very angry and he really has to bite his tongue.

When DH was out DM said to me she did not like the way he shouted at the DCs (DD had been made to get down from the table because she was answering back to him and refusing to chew her food) and she said it made her feel sick and was cruelty and abuse. As much as DH and I disagree over discipline and I think he is too strong with the DCs and raises his voice too much, I feel deeply upset by this. This is the man I love and have chosen to have children with and he is a loving, caring father who spends as much time as he can with his DCs, teaches them and parents them in the way he thinks is most likely to ensure their success in the world as adults. He loves those children more than anything and always puts them first. I don't agree with all his methods, and we have work to do between us to sort that out. He does not only shout at them to try and discipline them (eg on Sunday DS had spat all over the trampoline (part of a game - don't ask!) so DH took him off it and got him a bucket of hot soapy water and a cloth to clean it, and told him he had done a good job of that and that he could use the trampoline but as long as there was an adult out there with him. And he does acknowledge that he raises his voice too much sometimes and tries not to do that.

But he is not cruel or abusive, in my view (or I wouldn't be here). And I feel really upset by that comment which of course, I can't repeat to DH (I think he would never speak to her again).

I am due to have DC3 late December and DM was going to be on hand to come and help after he is born (it will be an ELCS and I won't be able to drive the other DCs to school the first couple of weeks in Jan) but I don't think it's workable. I think it's going to cause too much stress and I don't think I want it. Although on Saturday I did actually feel that DH had been too strict with DD over dinner, after the conversation with DM and what she said I feel that she went too far with what she said. Also the change of atmosphere after she left was a relief.

I don't really know what I'm asking here. I think I'm trying to work out what the problems are, and what to do about them and my mind is going round in circles and I just keep coming back to the 'cruel and abusive' comment and feeling really angry about it and hurt on DH's behalf.

Then why not have this conversation with his parents? Parents often amend their mistakes with DGC - not all of them, but it sounds as though there's a fair chance their views on controlling children have changed.

He thinks you're not strict enough when he's not there?

Oh dear, op, this isn't looking good I'm afraid.

"I think we both want the same things though but some of his attitudes are very 'old school' eg he doesn't believe in phobias, has little sympathy for eating disorders etc."

I think he has a problem. Its not "old school" to deny basic psychology. He sounds pretty ignorant. Does he have problems with people disagreeing with him in general?

Because children are not dolls or robots, but individual human beings, and parents cannot impose their will on them.

Eating disorders are often considered to be about exerting control.

You need to sort out a common parenting approach between you and dh. Then you can present this as a united front to your mum. May I recommend a book called 'calmer, easier, happier parenting'. I think It could be an approach which sits comfortably with you and dh. It is NOT based on an underlying approach like attachment or gentle parenting is, but is rather written by a former teacher on her experience of what works. She does have quite an emphasis on obedience which should please dh and also on working with a child's natural instinct to want to please their parents and to work with rewards more than punishments which should please you (and dm!). I think it is a pretty useful common sense book.

Re the chocolate buttons thing, I think I read the way she said it as 'Daddy will take this away from you' not 'this is the sanction for acting up'. It was the specific reference to him. Btw I would very often set a similar sanction for acting up when we are trying to get into the car and get somewhere. He hadn't raised his voice at her.

I am not afraid of making him angry, I am concerned about making it difficult for the DCs to have a relationship with DM by making things even more difficult when she is here.

I do agree that he gets too angry about things, and he knows I think this, I am not afraid to say that to him. He is aware himself that he gets too angry sometimes.

It just made the already existing conflict between us over these discipline and control matters harder to handle by having someone else get involved in what came across as quite a passive-aggressive way.

I did have a useful discussion with DM about what simple discipline strategies I might suggest. But I was hurt by the 'cruel and abusive' comment because much as I think some of what he does is wrong, I don't think it falls under what are very extreme categories of behaviour.

Sorry I am having a bit of trouble keeping up with the thread and don't mean to drip feed.

You and he need to try to get on the same page.
Better for kids if you agree even if it's a harsher regime. They thrive on clarity.
DM - Back Off or Go Home.
Soz!
The family ease has to be put first.

It's best for the kids.
If you are clear and decisive and give her clear messages she will fall in.
the parents have to be in charge

Laphem I do have that book and it is clearly time to re-read it - I seem to remember it making a lot of sense.

I have pointed out to him that at school children are taught by positive encouragement and gentle guidance on where they are going wrong. Certainly other than to attract attention my DCs teachers don't tend to shout but they do discipline the children. IMO parenting should be pretty much the same.

This has been a very useful discussion, I am grateful to the posters here.

basgetti re the ELCS help I think I am just feeling like I can't bear tension or stress at that time. However, if we can get on the same page and both feel like we are parenting our children in a way we agree, perhaps it might become a bit easier and perhaps this weekend has pushed that necessity right to the fore.

mummytime I didn't know that about eating disorders. My preferred approach to mealtimes (for DD anyway) is to give her her meal, gently encourage her to eat if she isn't, and set a time limit after which mealtime is over, no drama.

I think if a couple isn't pulling together it's pulling the family apart.

Previous generations knew this, give way in less important things, appear to be in unison, it makes children feel more secure if parents are on the same page.

Obvs within reason, but being a strong team makes life easier for all of you. and it will signal to DM to fall in or fall out.

Bullying a 4yo to eat to the point of making them cry is cruel. Don't ostracise your DM just because she had the courage to point out the Emperor is not wearing New Clothes.

"it will signal to DM to fall in or fall out"

No-one should feel obliged to 'fall in' when they can see little kids being bullied by a grown man...

I don't like the sound of your dh. He sounds too strict and I don't ever agree with tears over meals. If they don't want to eat it, no fuss just take it away. He is going to create massive issues about food if he doesn't just chill the fuck out.

I agree with your dm and I think you are minimising his behaviour, to yourself as well as others.

If he had a real concern for her nutrition, if he would not chose meal times to exercise his control and bully his children. He is using mealtimes to ensure you all fall into his line and to show you all who is boss. So for him, show who is in control is much more important than nutrition and the emotional well being of his child.

I absolutely agree that it is not her place to correct his parenting or to make any comment whatsoever in front of him. If she chooses to do so in private to you that's up to her. It must be horribly stressful for him to have your DM in the house for any length of time. I'd be looking to curtail the visits to as short a time as possible. But you both sound as if a compromise on discipline is necessary so maybe parenting classes is a good way forward.

He has said that he thinks it is very important that children do what they are told more or less without question so that in a situation of danger eg they were about to run into the road they would stop if you told them to. That's his reason why it's so important to him that the children do what they are asked to.

I have argued that you would not leave that to chance and no matter what sort of parenting techniques you employed you could never be sure that they would stop. (I don't think he would leave it to chance either - he is very safety conscious). So I don't really get that - I wonder if it is more to do with how he was brought up and just an innate feeling that children should obey their parents without question or you're failing as a parent/not in control. He was definitely afraid of his dad as a child and that determined his 'good' behaviour. I wasn't, and I probably behaved less well as a child (I remember running off when I shouldn't and having tantrums), but I was a lot better behaved as a teenager than he was and was not desperate to leave home as he was!

I think we do need a bigger discussion and we have made inroads into this discussion before but it is hard to do without coming across 'your parents were wrong and mine were right'. I just want us to work as parents without shouting, basically.

Have to go to collect DCs and then work so I won't be on the thread again until tomorrow probably. Thank you again to everyone who has offered input. It was this sort of range of perspectives and thoughts that I really needed to get some clarity for myself about how the family should work (rather than it being a DH vs DM scenario).

" very important that children do what they are told more or less without question"

Has he actually met any children before?!?! Does he see other families in action? Been to a school occasionally? His philosophy sounds like the kind of extreme conditioning they employ in the army, not a family. You know.... get soldiers to obey unthinkingly so that when you say 'off you go towards that machine gun chaps' they start walking.

I think you really do need a third-party involved in this. Not your poor mother.... although I totally sympathise with her dislike of this man... but someone else who can explain the difference between a bullying martinet and disciplined parenting. He doesn't take you seriously so you've no chance otherwise.

What is this man like when you disagree with him on other matters? Are your views listened to, respected and taken seriously, or does he expect you to cave in the face of more of his angry behaviour?

Exactly cogito.

I've never been super strict with my dc. Ever. I'm the most laid back person when it comes to parenting. In some ways I think it means they listen to me more - when I say no they know I mean it.

I agree with everything that Cogito and Garlic have said. Those poor kids Well done to your mum for saying something to you and well done to her for having the guts to want to speak to your DH about his behaviour.

I think I read the way she said it as 'Daddy will take this away from you' not 'this is the sanction for acting up'. It was the specific reference to him.

This is a quite ineffective effort to justify your his disapproval. He issued the sanction, she supported it, now it's passive-aggressive of her to expect him to own it?

My mother used to say "Do this or Daddy will punish you." That was wrong of her in various ways, but it wasn't passive-aggressive. It was factually accurate.

He thinks it is very important that children do what they are told more or less without question ... or you're failing as a parent/not in control. He was definitely afraid of his dad as a child.

I think a parent who equates control of their children with total obedience is likely to abuse them. At best, it invalidates them as human beings with thoughts & opinions of their own. Can he tell the difference between fear and respect? How would he define respect of a fellow human, adult or child?

You and your DH need to agree on a parenting/discipline method that makes sense to both of you and stick with it. And your mum needs to butt out and stop interfering. The point isn't whether she is "right" or not -unless it's a situation which is actually abusive (which this doesn't sound like, sounds like your husbands behaviour is well within the range of normal) this is simply not her business and undermining him in this way is out of order.

It is really frustrating to bear the brunt of disciplining children and leaving your partner to be "the nice one". 1-2-3-magic is a good book. Short, brief discipline that gets the matter over in minutes and lets you get on with enjoying family time. I think it works really well for men, and provided you both commit to it and follow through with consequences things will get under control. And you need to tell your mum to keep out if it.

But Even doesn't leave all the discipline to her husband, Captain! She sounds quite rigorous to me - more than I'd be, anyway, and I'm not a pushover.

You're right to say her husband's behaviour is well within the range of normal; very many children are afraid of their parents, as he was of his father. OP's experienced a more supportive style of discipline. I don't blame her - or her mother - for wanting the same for her children.

I find it alarming that you're willing to go without your mum's support after your section, Even. It suggests that you already know your DH will be so unbending as to disapprove of your being 'coddled' while injured and vulnerable, with a new baby. What's his alternative care plan, and does it feel adequately supportive to you?

We had all the arguments too about the need for the children to 'obey', ostensibly in case of danger.
Except it really wasn't that, he just felt that they should 'obey' full stop.
Many many similarities unfortunately.

You need to be firm in your convictions. Shouting, being too forceful, too many rules, too height expectations, rigidity and all the rest are not good methods for raising happy children.
Sure, everyone probably looses the rag occasionally with their children. That's ok. What I do now when I loose my cool or act badly is wait until I've cooled down, then genuinely apologise to whatever child has borne the brunt of my wrath. Along the lines of 'I'm sorry I got so cross, it wasn't good to wash the cat (or whatever), but I should not have been so angry, I'm really sorry, can we have a hug?'

There is a big difference between this and what you are experiencing I know.

Children are learning how to live, they will make mistakes, and that's ok.

If you disagree with the harshness of his patenting in front of her or to her you are giving her permission to do the same. You need to back him up when she is around and speak privately to him about any issues.

Possibly speak to your mum along the lines of 'we all need to stick together in front of our children. Please do this and say privately if you have a problem'