Problems with family relationships - no one to talk to

[EvenFlow]

I have problems with the relationship between my DM and DH. They do not really get on and although they don't exactly argue and are civil to each other, it is very stressful when she visits. I can't really talk to anyone about it close as I don't want to drag my family into it, although I'd otherwise talk to my sister. We've just had a not great weekend while DM was visiting and I'm feeling pretty upset about some things she said about DH. Sorry, this might be long but I am all over the place and struggling to know exactly what I'm upset about.

There is background to this. DH and I have two DCs (and I'm pregnant with DC3) and we have problems between us agreeing over discipline. He thinks I am too lax and that therefore DCs are badly behaved, I think he is too strict and don't like the way he raises his voice at the DCs (aged 4 and 6) when they are not behaving well (eg playing up at mealtimes, talking back, typical child behaviour) and we end up having arguments because he feels I leave all the 'discipline' to him which makes him the bad guy, and I feel he is too shouty and negative with them, or gives too severe punishments, so find it hard to back him up sometimes. He also tells them to 'shut up' from time to time which I don't like. He has strong views on everything and very high standards about how young children should behave (IMO) eg DS (6) is continually stopped from fidgeting which to me, is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest except that it can be annoying.

When DM is here this conflict worsens because she doesn't like him raising his voice either and will step in and make comments that are undermining eg this weekend he said to DD something like 'stop messing around and get on with eating your dinner' and DM said quickly 'oh, you've still got something in your mouth, haven't you?' (the problem is DD is a very slow eater and will sit just holding food in her mouth, she'd had a tiny bit of broccoli in there for ages). Another example, DD was complaining about something and not getting into her carseat and DH had said if she didn't get in properly she wouldn't have her promised chocolate buttons when we got back, and DM said 'come on DD, we don't want Daddy to tell you you can't have your chocolate buttons when we get in' - there are many other instances of this and it makes DH, understandably I think, very angry and he really has to bite his tongue.

When DH was out DM said to me she did not like the way he shouted at the DCs (DD had been made to get down from the table because she was answering back to him and refusing to chew her food) and she said it made her feel sick and was cruelty and abuse. As much as DH and I disagree over discipline and I think he is too strong with the DCs and raises his voice too much, I feel deeply upset by this. This is the man I love and have chosen to have children with and he is a loving, caring father who spends as much time as he can with his DCs, teaches them and parents them in the way he thinks is most likely to ensure their success in the world as adults. He loves those children more than anything and always puts them first. I don't agree with all his methods, and we have work to do between us to sort that out. He does not only shout at them to try and discipline them (eg on Sunday DS had spat all over the trampoline (part of a game - don't ask!) so DH took him off it and got him a bucket of hot soapy water and a cloth to clean it, and told him he had done a good job of that and that he could use the trampoline but as long as there was an adult out there with him. And he does acknowledge that he raises his voice too much sometimes and tries not to do that.

But he is not cruel or abusive, in my view (or I wouldn't be here). And I feel really upset by that comment which of course, I can't repeat to DH (I think he would never speak to her again).

I am due to have DC3 late December and DM was going to be on hand to come and help after he is born (it will be an ELCS and I won't be able to drive the other DCs to school the first couple of weeks in Jan) but I don't think it's workable. I think it's going to cause too much stress and I don't think I want it. Although on Saturday I did actually feel that DH had been too strict with DD over dinner, after the conversation with DM and what she said I feel that she went too far with what she said. Also the change of atmosphere after she left was a relief.

I don't really know what I'm asking here. I think I'm trying to work out what the problems are, and what to do about them and my mind is going round in circles and I just keep coming back to the 'cruel and abusive' comment and feeling really angry about it and hurt on DH's behalf.

No wonder the poor wee ones cant swallow their mouthfuls, they must have a lump in their throats already at mealtimes!

You seem to be minimizing his outbursts, so clearly you know they are wrong? You dont discipline because he goes over the top, yet unlike your mum you are too scared to say anything.

Poor you, and poor kids!

I also think the word angry is being mentioned here an awful lot.

re your comment:-
"But DH is not cruel or abusive by a long stretch. Not at all".

At the very least he is totally misguided in his whole approach to parenting and disciplining these children. He is making profound errors here and no he is not putting them first. He is putting his own wishes first, i.e. clear your plate. Mealtimes are social occasions, they should not have to stand on ceremony for him.

Your mother is entitled to her opinion and she knows you both well. She was likely shocked by what she saw. I can imagine that your DH does not like her because he actually sees her as a threat to him.

Your role in discipline should be a jointly held one with equal say but it is not. He clearly has all the power and control here. You've deferred to him at great cost to yourself. This is going to cause real ructions in years to come because your children will start answering him back when older.

What are his parents like; I would think that this behaviour is deeply ingrained from childhood. It is likely that one or both his parents were overtly strict disciplinarians and he is simply repeating what he himself learnt. You want that for your own children now as well?.

His behaviour towards your children is harmful to them on an emotional level. It would not surprise me at all if longer term they become completely terrified of him. You worry about him being too strict but what has he really done to find out why he is acting the ways he is?. It all seems to be down to you; he is more than adept at saying to you that you're too soft with/on them.

I wonder what your feelings are towards your DH now; you keep writing that he is not cruel and abusive. Well not directly towards yourself anyway.

Tomanyanimals this is what my DH feels - that he has to be stricter and because I am not being effective enough when he's not there (eg DCs tea time when he is at work). I do pick them up on table manners so they have constant reminders about how they should behave but I don't shout at them about it. And I don't expect perfection from a 4 and 6yo either. I think they are good enough.

I think you do need to sit down and find some middle ground here where discipline is concerned. Maybe you need to be a bit stricter and maybe he needs to react less.

I think the problem is that some of what you have written is in code. What does "sometimes DD hits out at me" mean? Do you mean violently or verbally or what? I's quite difficult to see whether your approach of no tv or your husbands approach of sending bed for the rest of the day is proportionate. On the face of it, I would say sending to bed for hours on end is never a great punishment and not one I would ever have used.

Look. It's not up to DH to control the speed at which his children eat. That is bonkers, pointless, and in the long run serves to teach DD she is fundamentally unacceptable. Same with fidgeting.

He does sound like a bully and, were I standing where your mother stood, I'd be most upset about it too. I don't feel she is unreasonable, and I'm questioning why you're scared of making him angry? What will happen?

The fact that he is capable of appropriate discipline (trampoline incident) doesn't negate the fact that he's 'disciplining' behaviours which don't require it.

BTW... has it occurred to you that the reason your DCs don't take you seriously is because they're copying their father?

I don't expect perfection from a 4 and 6yo either. I think they are good enough

That's common sense. He doesn't find them or you good enough, though, does he?

YY, Cogito!

"As others say, he also hands out bigger punishments than I would/do".
But they are only six and four.

The way he's acting could well also end up giving your children emotional problems centered around eating and mealtimes.

"Or I will do it by speaking to them about whatever it is and will give consequences eg losing TV or tablet time (and follow through with these) but he feels that isn't effective enough and that they don't respect me".

Now why is that, I would ask him. Your way to me seems a lot better particularly if you follow through afterwards. I would think that your children are far less scared of you than they are of their dad, they likely do not know what to think of him. They see that you like him and want his approval as well.

"I think we end up pushing each other into the 'too lax'/'too strict' corners and end up at odds with each other. We need a common set of rules and ways of handling things."

Indeed but I do not think he will budge any because he feels that his way is the correct one. He may well be not open to any further discussions.

"I don't like shouting at all and didn't grow up in a shouty family but I think he did".

I've already made allusions to that re his family of origin and that would not surprise me at all. This is basically what he was taught by his parents as a child. If that is the case you have a huge problem on your hands.

Sorry, just seen your last post.

And I don't expect perfection from a 4 and 6yo either. I think they are good enough.

See, now I totally agree with you. Perfection isn't even remotely required. No one is perfect. It's a long time ago now, but I seem to remember our mealtimes being fairly lively and no where near perfection. Meals are to be enjoyed as a family.

Cogito I agree re the middle ground.

Ironically he thinks that I override him and do things my way and don't take account of his views on how things should be done.

Quintessentially I have also said to him that DD will not feel like eating if she is in trouble and that mealtimes should not be a battle. His concern is for her nutrition (she is a fussy and slow eater) - his stance is that as parents we should be making sure she eats the right things so she grows up healthy. We should put the right amount on her plate. I think the battle thing is more important, that mealtimes should not be stressful, and they should be allowed to decide when they have had enough.

His parents were strict disciplinarians. I don't want that for our children and I do fear that they will be more likely to lie to him when it is really important when they are older if they have done something wrong, or that they will just have arguments and it will mar their relationship as teenagers/adults. He thinks that I just 'want to be their friend and not their parent' but that isn't how I see it at all. I just don't go with the 'do it because I say so' school of thought. I'd rather try to teach them a relationship of mutual respect, with appropriate boundaries. But DH and I often don't agree on what those boundaries are.

He sounds totally over the top, mealtimes should be a nice time to chat.
You can have nice table manners without eating as if you are in prison.
Sounds like your mum is standing up to your nasty bully of a husband to me, which s good because you clearly can't or won't.

I had a similar problem when myself a dh were going through a dreadful time.
Dh was too aggressive in his parenting style and as a consequence I was not firm enough. I felt sorry for them, and didn't think that they particularly needed to fall in with his rules.
I regularly didn't back him up, simply because I felt he was wrong and too harsh, I felt he expected too much from small children.
I was given the label of rubbish mother by him, their 'bad' behaviour was all my fault apparently.
His father was a horribly aggressive parent. When he made that connection things started slotting into place for him and he was able to change the way he dealt with our children.
Once he dealt with his own aggressive behaviour (basically stopped shouting etc) it was easier for us to parent together.
I think you are minimising the impact his shouting/rules is having on both your ability to parent effectively and on your children's behaviour/emotional well being.

So why are you angry with your Mum? It sounds like she is spot on.

Your child being fussy/slow at mealtimes could be her way of trying to regain some control over eating. Not a good thing. Mealtimes should not be a battle. It's normal for small children to be fussy.
They are hard wired for this, it would have protected them from eating something poisonous way back when we were hunter gatherers or something along those lines!

And he doesn't feel that I have any method for teaching them that works. I think his expectations, generally, are too high.

The thing is, he is an intelligent man, and he can discipline them in a way I think is totally appropriate eg trampoline incident. It's all the raised voices that I can't do with and it makes it impossible to 'back him up'.

I think I do need to think all this through and come up with strategies for each of the flash points. As long as something makes logical sense, he is willing to listen and try something new.

Cogito and Garlic I have wondered about this (DCs taking me seriously).

"stance is that as parents we should be making sure she eats the right things so she grows up healthy."

Hectoring a child over eating everything on their plate is more likely to end up with someone growing up with food phobias and EDs than being healthy. Does he realise that?

Suggest you get DM round MORE often rather than less.

2times that is really helpful.

Meal times being a battle ground is a bit of a bugbear of mine. We had one very fussy eater and she was also quite slow. If I learnt one thing it's that making it into a big deal was hugely counterproductive and should be avoided at all costs.

Now you've said that, I'm more inclined to the view that your husband's expectations of mealtimes may be building up trouble for later.

"His parents were strict disciplinarians. I don't want that for our children and I do fear that they will be more likely to lie to him when it is really important when they are older if they have done something wrong, or that they will just have arguments and it will mar their relationship as teenagers/adults".

Are you that surprised that his own parents were such?.

His parents did that lot of damage to him and he knows no different. Now he is repeating their same damaging cycle with these children now.

Your concerns are valid ones and their relationship with him as adults will likely be pretty much non existent. They won't think much of you either because they could well at that time ask you why you put him before them if you had not already left him. Your relationship with them long term could well suffer here. Saying you stayed for their sake will not endear you to them either.

"Ironically he thinks that I override him and do things my way and don't take account of his views on how things should be done".

Now he is projecting which is another tactic; that is what he actually does to you. He sees you as an irritant; in his eyes you're supposed to agree with him at all times on all matters.

I'd resolved not to pick up on specifics but this is niggling me - sorry!

DH had said if she didn't get in properly she wouldn't have her promised chocolate buttons when we got back, and DM said 'come on DD, we don't want Daddy to tell you you can't have your chocolate buttons when we get in'

You reckon your mother undermined DH by using HIS OWN sanction to cajole her into her seat?? How does that work, exactly? (Rhetorical question: it's quite clear to me.)

Ok so I understand he might mean well but he is way off the mark here causing untold stress for the whole house during meal times.

I certainly think he is trying to control things but little people aren't made to be controlled at that age! They are learning etc and should be able to do that within a loving environment. For instance if your dd is a slow eater, what good is it going to do having your dh harass her?

Yes I agree that children need discipline and boundaries but he is going ott here and it will impact upon the children.

In that it is exactly the situation we are in.

I think we both want the same things though but some of his attitudes are very 'old school' eg he doesn't believe in phobias, has little sympathy for eating disorders etc.

This is all the bad stuff and I don't want to minimise it but balance it. I don't think he wants to shout at them, but he is doing what was done to him I suppose. Ironically as grandparents his parents are very gentle people.

You're right Garlic. I hadn't read it that way, but now that you mention it.......

I actually find it outrageous that you are having to reconsider accepting your Mum's much needed help and support after an ELCS just because your DH can't take someone disagreeing with him and his methods. It seems like his ego must come first at all costs.