*Amended* Please help me discuss this with DH without having a nasty row

[SilverStrand]

apologies i had to amend a couple of details in this and repost as was worried about being identified.

This is going to sound like a real first world problem, but there is a lot going on in our relationship at the moment which is making me more anxious about this issue than i normally would be.??

Dh and i have had a bad summer with some awful rows. We have had counselling in the past, (Relate - didn't find it helpful, we ended up resolving our own issues at that stage). Dh has come round a lot in the last few weeks and we are thinking of going away for a night in October if my bro and sis in law can look after our kids.??I would say we are not out of the woods yet, but we are at least working on it.

??The problem is that i know my dh is about to broach something with me, about a Rugby weekend away to Rome next March with some business associates of his and their wives/partners.??He will want to go on this weekend and will expect me to agree to it.

The issue i have is that i went away with this same group of people last March. It was two nights in Paris for a six nations match. Dh and i live 3 hours from the airport they fly from and had to take an extra night to stay over at the airport hotel the night before, then coming home, our flight was delayed and we ended up driving the 3 hours home at around 11 at night, and his poor parent had to wait up for us as they were looking after the kids.??

The weekend itself was pretty much a 48hour drinking session albeit in a posh hotel and with corporate hospitality for the match. We hardly got any time to ourselves, as soon as breakfast was over there was about an hour of free time before we reconvened in the bar for more drinks before the match, or before flight home.

They were all drinking champagne in the executive lounge at 9am on the way over. I am in NO way judging these folk, they are all nice people, and i love a drink myself, but it was so non stop it was actually oppressive and too much of a good thing.??

Also all bar one of the other couples were/are very very wealthy and there was a lot of talk of yachts and holiday homes in Portugal that i couldn't really relate to.

??Finally they are all in their mid fifties or older with grown up children and its not a big deal for them to skip off for a weekend here and there, and they do, which is great for them, but we have younger kids, the youngest is 5 and oldest 12, and it is a huge effort to get away, so much preparation has to be done, so many favours called in, that i would far rather make that sort of effort for a weekend away either just with my dh, or with a couple that we are really friendly with as opposed to this group of people who are really nice and that, but i have very little in common with.??

If i try and explain all this to my dh, he will sigh, and tell me i always focus on the negative and never want to try anything new, and that the fall out from me not wanting to go or not going, will be such that he probably won't want to go away anywhere with my on my own anyway, as he will be so pissed off about us missing out on this trip. (he can't go on his own, though i wouldnt mind it he did as its really a couples trip.)

There is a big part of him that is hugely flattered to be asked to join these people as we are not in their league in terms of income, but they seem to enjoy our company so want us there. Dh will be afraid to been seen to snub the invitation and will worry that we won't be asked away again.

??But i think its stupid to spend all that money (£3000 not inc spending money) on something I'm not that keen to do. I don't want to spend a weekend like that, and i told dh that last year on our way home when he was speculating as to whether we would be asked again on the next trip, i would be prepared to go maybe every 2 or 3 years but not every year.??Is this unreasonable and how do i put my point across assertively and clearly without having a row?

The thing is in the conversations like this morning both in the house and on the phone, he is careful not to swear or call me awful names as such, as he know i really wold hang up on him then. But its the matter of fact way that he declares that i this and that, all negative judgements on my personality, and telling what a good marriage should be, i.e. implying that we haven't a good marriage because of my faults, and he goes on and on and on like this for ages, and i can't get a word it, and if i do interject to defend myself, he tells me not to interrupt him, ok fine, i hate to be interrupted myself, but he goes on for so long and says such hurtful stuff that by the time he has finished, i barely have the will or the energy to counter what he is saying, i usually do counter it, but it leaves me so incredibly drained, down, depressed and tired that it ruins me for the rest of the day.

he is careful not to swear or call me awful names as such, as he know i really wold hang up on him then

Well, now you have a third item on your banned list - personal comments.

The rest of your post sounds so sad and depressing. I had a colleague like this once, I couldn't imagine not being able to drive home to my DP for a hug and some reassurance.

I read this bit again, t leaves me so incredibly drained, down, depressed and tired that it ruins me for the rest of the day.

I think that Scatterbrain is right. You must disengage. Walk away, phone down, broken record technique, "It's not ok to talk to me like that".

I just wanted to say I feel for you, my DH behaves similarly when we argue, our arguments never seem to reach a conclusion. Sometimes it's hard to tell which one of us is the unreasonable one as we can both be quite stubborn, but I never attach his personality in an argument and he does.

I sometimes wish we could have arguments like people in sitcoms do - it always ends well and it's never depressing, but sadly no (does anyone IRL?).

I hope you will find a way though this, but in any case the best thing for you is to focus on you right now and not him. I would try to be polite and nice and detached.

attack not attach

What actually do you see in this man?

He sounds manipulative, exhausting and a bit of a bully towards you.

he seems to think that you should be the good wife and say thank you for the expensive trip darling, and when you say he doesn't make the effort for you to go away together he will throw this trip you have refused straight back at you.

You can't spend your life in a tug of war with a man who will never let you win, he gives you an inch and claims to be giving you a mile.

If I was in your position I would be turning this back on him, some thing like this...

"I have had a think about the trip, my resistance is purely based on the fact I want us to spend time together. I know you are excited about getting to go away with your friends so how about if I agree to go on the trip you agree that we get some time away together going to places I want to see in Rome"

by doing this you are giving him the option of going, then you get a bit of satisfaction of being able to do something you want to do.

Another option here, you are in contact with another of the wives it could be they loathe it just as much as you. Why not contact and see if they want to do girls stuff whilst the men watch the rugby?

how about if I agree to go on the trip you agree that we get some time away together going to places I want to see in Rome

If you re read the thread, this was what was supposed to happen but they ended up spending the whole weekend with the group.

How can you be lucky to be invited to a weekend break which costs you £3000? Why is that lucky?

Another option here, you are in contact with another of the wives it could be they loathe it just as much as you. Why not contact and see if they want to do girls stuff whilst the men watch the rugby?

Reality i did try this on the last trip back in march. I suggested to the wives that we could head off and do some sightseeing and shopping while the lads did the drinking/rugby watching…they dismissed that, saying they were very much into watching the match and not that bothered to do any sightseeing etc. They alternate Rome and Paris every year so i guess they have seen all the sights at this stage. I know dh and he would definitely not want to be seen to be doing something different or taking us out of the group, he would want to go with the flow so to speak. I tried to get us some time on our own on the friday and saturday but it only ended up being around 30mins on the friday evening after a long boozy lunch and then an hour between breakfast and meeting in bar of hotel for a drink before boarding the minibus to the stadium.

OneMiddle yes it is the criticising of my personality when we are in a dispute that hurts and does all the damage. I don't expect us to agree on everything, i don't expect that my dh will want to do everything i want to do, but i wouldn't attack his personality for not falling in with my plans.

Vivacia I really must learn to disengage and walk away.In 15 years of marriage i haven't managed to do that yet, i always seem to fall in to the trap of thinking i can reason with him, make him see things from my side, but i never do and it always ends u getting heated and awful

How can you be lucky to be invited to a weekend break which costs you £3000? Why is that lucky?

Green some (but not all) of the cost is absorbed by the business. The rest comes from our own finances.

Its not lucky at all, my dh seems to think i should be grateful for this invitation, despite that fact that the business is paying for a chunk of it, and we are paying the rest , so either way, we are paying for it.

Its not a junket, although he tells everyone like his parents etc that it is, cos he knows they would think he was mad to shell out that kind of cash on a drinking session in paris/rome.

i always seem to fall in to the trap of thinking i can reason with him, make him see things from my side, but i never do and it always ends u getting heated and awful

And this is exactly why it is so exhausting. Because you keep expecting him to be kind and considerate, to act reasonably and as you would and you keep searching for those magical words that make him finally see it from your point of view. But he does not change and you cannot get through and your hopes are dashed all over again which is emotionally crushing and mentally exhausting.

You need to focus on disengaging. Remain polite but detach, detach, detach. No matter how much you want to you cannot change him so save your energy for things that can be changed. And for now that energy must be focused on your needs and plans.

I am sorry to say that it doesn't sound as though he has your best interests at heart, so you need to look out for yourself.

I agree. If the business is yours, you still earn the money to pay for it. The tax/vat element is reclaimable but the rest is not.

The fact is, you are not keen and he refuses to go alone. So he has made his choice. If he is verbally abusive because you don't agree with him, he is a child.

Do read Patricia Evans on the verbally abusive relationship. You'll find him in there.

I know this isn't really relevant but you cannot reclaim VAT on business entertaining, you can't offset it against corporation tax. If he does and he has an HMRC visit then he will either be charged the tax reclaimed possibly with a penalty or they will deem it a benefit in Kind and tax him at the highest possible rate on it.

I am shocked that you allow yourself be bullied like this.

If someone was speaking to me like that I would just say "Not this again - goodbye" and hang up.

Fuck him and his martyred expressions - let him get on with it. He sounds horrible actually.

He is hugely discontented with me, i feel very much irritation and anger from him, no love no tenderness no companionship even.

Or perhaps:
He is hugely discontented with himself, i feel very much irritation and anger from him because I don't magically make it better, no love no tenderness no companionship even.

Sounds to me like you are banging your head against a brick wall trying to reason with your dh.

I like rugby and the opportunity to go and watch a match would be great but the thought of spending a weekend in a city like Paris or Rome and purely seeing the inside of a hotel bar and the stadium would turn me cold, what a waste.

If your dh cannot/will not make time for you as a couple to actually see something of the place you are visiting for fear of being 'not in with the group', is there any chance you could suggest that you are prepared to go but only if you go for longer, a few days either side of the event, and spend time just the two of you seeing the place you are visiting, having time as a couple and then joining the other couples on the Friday night/Saturday morning?

missscatter

if you re-read my post you will see I am talking about the proposed trip. Not the previous one.

Kew, that sounds right.

I think there is a big power imbalance in this relationship, and that you have become acclimatised to it bit by bit.

I wonder if you think that by putting up a fight or arguing back it helps equalise things? I used to think that myself. It's a myth, you know: who usually wins these skirmishes? The ones you've got the energy for, that it?

Can you name something that HE has done lately just to make you happy?

He says that you're a killjoy etc, can you name something you enjoy doing that he does not?

Can you think of new things that you have done?

---

Essentially, what he's doing is focussing on the negative ONLY on this trip. He's not saying "about this you are..." he's saying on the whole. Attacking your personality instead of the issue at hand. Basically brow-beating you.

So stand firm. "I'm not going. I don't care that it's a 5 star hotel in Rome, how would I know if we're just sitting around drinking? How bloody boring! I can't believe you actually think sitting around getting drunk is better than exploring Rome. Wow!"

It's difficult. You don't want to go and I agree it sounds awful. And to spend all that money doing something you won't enjoy isn't a very attractive prospect. However, you do have to compromise when it comes to holidays. But this does sound to me like an ask too far. You won't make him see things from your point of view. He wants to go and you don't. So either you back down and go, or he goes on his own, or neither of you go. If you didn't like it last time what is the point of going again. I'd refuse.

He's going to make a list of reasons your marriage isnt working?
Presumably they will all be your fault?
I'd be making my own fucking list.
What. A. Twat.

No wonder you're exhausted!

This isn't about the holiday. It's about him being in control and trying to wear you down so you're more easily malleable in future.

He sounds like the type of person that you can never win an argument with, so don't try. Refusing to argue isn't the same as backing down.

He's a bully and the techniques that I've found that work best are either to detach or reflect back. If the former then when he starts imagine a bubble protecting you from all his negativity and anger - you don't need to absorb or respond to it.

If the latter then just say 'You sound angry about this so there's no point discussing it now.' He has to take responsibility for his emotions and responses. You can't make them better (even though it suits him to try to make it your responsibility). Another trick is to imagine how a 'reasonable' person would respond in his position.

As for the list of problems that he's going to present you with - I'm on your behalf. What a FW! I'd take the list but refuse to discuss it with him. In fact, I'd tell him you're going to discuss it with your counsellor. He's trying to put himself in the superior position, put you on the backfoot and put himself in the position of senior partner 'appraising' the performance of the marriage. Don't let him set the parameters for your response.

*"And this is exactly why it is so exhausting. Because you keep expecting him to be kind and considerate, to act reasonably and as you would and you keep searching for those magical words that make him finally see it from your point of view. But he does not change and you cannot get through and your hopes are dashed all over again which is emotionally crushing and mentally exhausting.

You need to focus on disengaging. Remain polite but detach, detach, detach. No matter how much you want to you cannot change him so save your energy for things that can be changed. And for now that energy must be focused on your needs and plans."*

Legion what you have said above has struck a chord with me. Depressing but true, i really have been labouring under the illusion that he is a reasonable person who has my best interest at heart and that if i could only find our middle ground then things would be fine.

When in fact it is beginning to dawn on me (slow learner here!) that in fact he is deeply selfish, immature, overbearing and devoid of empathy.

So what do i do with this revelation … i will certainly get the patricia evans book and any other book anyone can recommend on here to me to try and guide me a way through.

But you say to detach..how do i do that? It is so hard to detach from someone with whom you share a home and children. How do you become immune to their selfish insensitive and critical ways?

My instinct is always to stand up for myself, whereas detach seems to mean reaching a place where you can't be bothered to stand up for yourself any more because their words mean nothing for you. I would so love to achieve that and anyone who can advise how to do so would really help.

Bookaboo I will certainly do that. I need to find myself a counsellor first, which may take a while, but i will keep a record of anything he says or writes and get advice on it when i can.

Emotionsecho Your suggestion of tagging a day on either side of the weekend is a brilliant one, and if he had handled this whole thing differently then i would definitely have been suggesting that to him as a great compromise for us. However my heart isn't in it now, and i don't feel like i want to even make that gesture right now, maybe that is unreasonable, but its just how i feel at the moment. I suppose he has been so negative about me and to me that i don't even want to be in his company, let alone go away with him.

Reading: try "The Reality Slap".

It isn't about bad marriages. It is about living your life successfully when bad shit happens.

Thanks jetsandsugar sugar