*Amended* Please help me discuss this with DH without having a nasty row

[SilverStrand]

apologies i had to amend a couple of details in this and repost as was worried about being identified.

This is going to sound like a real first world problem, but there is a lot going on in our relationship at the moment which is making me more anxious about this issue than i normally would be.??

Dh and i have had a bad summer with some awful rows. We have had counselling in the past, (Relate - didn't find it helpful, we ended up resolving our own issues at that stage). Dh has come round a lot in the last few weeks and we are thinking of going away for a night in October if my bro and sis in law can look after our kids.??I would say we are not out of the woods yet, but we are at least working on it.

??The problem is that i know my dh is about to broach something with me, about a Rugby weekend away to Rome next March with some business associates of his and their wives/partners.??He will want to go on this weekend and will expect me to agree to it.

The issue i have is that i went away with this same group of people last March. It was two nights in Paris for a six nations match. Dh and i live 3 hours from the airport they fly from and had to take an extra night to stay over at the airport hotel the night before, then coming home, our flight was delayed and we ended up driving the 3 hours home at around 11 at night, and his poor parent had to wait up for us as they were looking after the kids.??

The weekend itself was pretty much a 48hour drinking session albeit in a posh hotel and with corporate hospitality for the match. We hardly got any time to ourselves, as soon as breakfast was over there was about an hour of free time before we reconvened in the bar for more drinks before the match, or before flight home.

They were all drinking champagne in the executive lounge at 9am on the way over. I am in NO way judging these folk, they are all nice people, and i love a drink myself, but it was so non stop it was actually oppressive and too much of a good thing.??

Also all bar one of the other couples were/are very very wealthy and there was a lot of talk of yachts and holiday homes in Portugal that i couldn't really relate to.

??Finally they are all in their mid fifties or older with grown up children and its not a big deal for them to skip off for a weekend here and there, and they do, which is great for them, but we have younger kids, the youngest is 5 and oldest 12, and it is a huge effort to get away, so much preparation has to be done, so many favours called in, that i would far rather make that sort of effort for a weekend away either just with my dh, or with a couple that we are really friendly with as opposed to this group of people who are really nice and that, but i have very little in common with.??

If i try and explain all this to my dh, he will sigh, and tell me i always focus on the negative and never want to try anything new, and that the fall out from me not wanting to go or not going, will be such that he probably won't want to go away anywhere with my on my own anyway, as he will be so pissed off about us missing out on this trip. (he can't go on his own, though i wouldnt mind it he did as its really a couples trip.)

There is a big part of him that is hugely flattered to be asked to join these people as we are not in their league in terms of income, but they seem to enjoy our company so want us there. Dh will be afraid to been seen to snub the invitation and will worry that we won't be asked away again.

??But i think its stupid to spend all that money (£3000 not inc spending money) on something I'm not that keen to do. I don't want to spend a weekend like that, and i told dh that last year on our way home when he was speculating as to whether we would be asked again on the next trip, i would be prepared to go maybe every 2 or 3 years but not every year.??Is this unreasonable and how do i put my point across assertively and clearly without having a row?

he will sigh, and tell me i always focus on the negative and never want to try anything new

Well going on that jolly with the same crowd drinking all weekend again won't be "new" will it, you have done that already.

He sees these guys socially anyway during the year so it's not like you are trying to veto all contact.

"I think you're a little bit looking for reasons to dislike it". Don't quite see why OP is obliged to look forward to something she tried once and got zero from the last time.

However. In the spirit of building bridges given the turmoil of past weeks, agreeing to go to the next such event will be an easy way to perk DH up. It's months away, a lot can happen.

DH was too embarrassed to say last time he and you wanted some time to yourselves in Paris so meekly tagged along all weekend. Going away as a couple to Rome this time I think a reasonable proviso would be, you want some hours to see some sights together, blah blah.

Actually, you say they're nice people. Maybe in between now and March you could contact one or two of the spouses and say you're wondering about splitting some of the time between boozing staying in the venue and sightseeing/shopping, any chance they'd be up for that...?

Another idea to wean him off the notion all the best weekends away have to centre on this group and drinking heavily is to get some details of a trip for you two and the other couple. Somewhere different, an activity holiday? Something a bit more exciting. That way he can't make out you're a wet blanket.

how do i put my point across assertively and clearly without having a row?

I'm not sure you can put your point across without having a row because it sounds as if he isn't the slightest bit interested in your point unless it is to agree to his wants and desires.

It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who shuts you down with comments like 'you're always so ' or 'you never want to do anything fun/try anything new'

That isn't a discussion it's an announcement that he has commenced to sulk.

I think kickass is spot on in that the problem is in the way he handles disagreement and in his mindset that what you want comes secondary. The sulking is not a good sign.

Perhaps have some stock phrases thought up when he starts being childish (because that is how he is behaving) like: Let's not get personal about this or Can we be constructive rather than insulting.

Also you say its not an issue about him and the childcare arrangements but you say in your OP it's a huge effort. It still seems to me that he isn't having the pain of the childcare arrangements. I mean if he were to take that hassle out of your hands completely would you think differently about going on the weekend or would you still not want to go?

You say he has a self esteem issue around others but from what you said on here he seems to compensate for this by being bullish at home. Going beyond arguing his corner into sighs, sulks or complaining.

Just a fleeting thought is he intimidated intellectually by you?

"I'm not sure you can put your point across without having a row because it sounds as if he isn't the slightest bit interested in your point unless it is to agree to his wants and desires." This is also a distinct possibility even if you manage to stay calm and rational and keep trying to draw the discussion back to the point and away from the insults and sulking.

I'm not sure you can put your point across without having a row because it sounds as if he isn't the slightest bit interested in your point unless it is to agree to his wants and desires.

This.

Apart from his method of handling you when you voice a disagreement, I'm also worried about your finances.

'Just a fleeting thought is he intimidated intellectually by you?' Oh my god Donkey are you psychic?? That is so perceptive of you, in actual fact this is a big issue for us, and he often in the middle of a row snaps at me that because i am "an english scholar" (i have an english lit degree) that i am much more articulate than him and that i tie him up verbally in knots.

I find this very insulting as it suggests i would use my verbal strengths against him, which would be in very bad faith of me and in any case counter productive to a harmonious resolution of an argument.

What you say about contacting the wife of one of the guys is a good idea, i have in fact been in touch with one of the women from time ti time on Facebook, we have been meaning to meet up for lunch but just haven't been able to manage it so far. DH has asked me several times when am i going to meet her, and i feel a bit of pressure there but i will meet her anyway at some stage as i do like her.

Also good point that this event isn't "something new" as i have done it before. I really doubt we could carve out time away for ourselves over this weekend as everyone in the group seems to get caught up in the swing of things, at the most you might be able to grab an hours walk on the friday between a very long and liquidy lunch and before dinner drinks. The whole of the saturday is given over to the match, breakfast, meet in bar at 12 for a pre match drink, private bus to match, with drink on board, pre match lunch lasting 2 hours, with lots of drink, match, then back to hotel for a quick change of clothes before out to another long and liquidy dinner. Then up the next day and off to the airport, where last time round we ended up sitting at departures for 3 hours whilst they all drink but dh and i couldn't cos we had a 3 hour drive home at the end of it.

scallops even if he organised all the childcare, asked all our friends to ferry the kids to after school and weekend stuff, and did all that sort of thing, it still wouldn't make me want to make this trip anyway, as i do think the effort/cost/time/driving/ is worth making just to sit drinking most of the weekend and watching a rugby match, id rather be at home with the kids and let dh go on his own, thats what floats his boat, fair enough, but not mine.

'I'm not sure you can put your point across without having a row because it sounds as if he isn't the slightest bit interested in your point unless it is to agree to his wants and desires.' Legion yes, this is a problem for us, and one of the many reasons our relationship has been troubled for quite some time now.

I find this very insulting as it suggests i would use my verbal strengths against him, which would be in very bad faith of me

Shit, he is very good at shutting you up.

vivacia it doesn't work to shut me up, but it does work at bringing us to a dead end in the discussion from where there is no where else to go, it is utterly self defeating and once he voices that in the argument, then what is the point in wasting my breath any further. Its what it says about me as a person that hurst, that i would use my intelligence to score points over him as opposed to try and reach a compromise, its not very nice to be told that..

Fair enough SilverStrand about the weekend/childcare. I'm just gauging the depth of how much you don't want to go on the weekend (not that the problem is you not wanting to go. It's more about getting a feel for the state of your relationship and your mind on this particular imminent row)

Maybe this is a tipping point for your relationship SilverStrand? The fact that you've posted about this issue as opposed to the other rows you've had recently. How would you feel about that?

Also what do you think you will do when the inevitable sulking and manipulation occurs?

Yes Vivacia is right. It is a silencing technique. The fact the conversation/row effectively ends at that point demonstrates it.

"that i would use my intelligence to score points over him as opposed to try and reach a compromise, its not very nice to be told that.." He's projecting because he uses manipulative techniques to score points.

So basically you don't want to go. You're not stopping him from going. You've said he can take a friend. Would he not snap your hand off for that offer? I think my dh would!

I have gone along to things I didn't want to before, for the sake of my dh and he has done the same for me. So I think that's ok.

If yous aren't getting enough time together I honestly don't think I'm the grand scheme of things that his absence for one weekend will change that.

Hiring a sitter on a regular basis would be my advice. If you don't have one calling your local nursery would be a good start as often the staff offer childcare outwith their working hours.

He claims he can get VAT back on these sorts of trips through the business

There is very little VAT involved in an overseas trip though. No VAT is charged on overseas flights, hotel, or expenditure - so you can knock back that part of his argument right there.

The problem seems to be that he values his own position/power in life so little that he will do anything to ingratiate himself into the good books of people he looks up to. This is then extended to the rest of his family - the needs of you/house/kids etc are all lesser than the need to appear good to other people.

That's a really deep problem that a few chats and a weekend away won't fix. Can he even begin to see this about himself? Can he see how unfair it is on you & the kids?

He also then seems to be trying to put himself in a 'better' position than you/kids, probably to boost his self esteem, which just further grinds you down & makes it harder to get what you want/need in life. Then you end up having to push to get your point across, rather than having an adult conversation about it. Instead of working in partnership, you're working in a hierarchy where you have to forcefully demand what you want, and then feel resentment (in both directions) because of this.

Is he really open to discussing the root of the problem? Unless he can really talk about this honestly then I don't see how you'll ever do anything other than argue about it.

Wow, he really resents you doesn't he?
It is a stupid idea and because you have noticed it is a stupid idea he moans that you are clever enough to notice it is stupid.

Does he want a stupid docile woman? Or does he want his friends to think he has an intelligent wife but he wished she'd shut up and accept him as master of the house.

By saying you are using intelligence to argue against him isn't he really acknowledging the idea is stupid anyway? So he can only win by being nasty to you.

This isn't a good place for any relationship.

I am not saying a good row clears the air but it's very frustrating if he stonewalls you or leaves you unable to argue or debate. This must make conflict near impossible to resolve.

You said you didn't find counselling much help but managed to resolve your own issues. That sounds as if you managed one way or the other to come to some agreement.

I wonder how your parents and his settled disagreements. Watching our parents discuss and compromise or crumble in the face of opposition (and in some cases abuse) can affect how we act later as adults.

I don't think carving time out for yourselves on the weekend away is the answer. He would no doubt spend the entire time sulking about how rude everyone must think you are to go off on your own and being desperate to get back to the others.

And all the time in the world together isn't going to solve the problem if he isn't prepared to discuss things properly and make compromises. Presumably he is aware that your relationship is 'troubled' and if that matters to him then he needs to prioritise accordingly.

It's definitely about your relationship not this one trip.
If your relationship was fine, tbh I'd be saying "suck it up! You can afford it, you like the people, you don't mind a drink (just not THAT much!) it's only once a year..." etc.
Once a year I'd expect my partner to do something for me, and I'd do it for them.

I think you should stop focusing on this trip. it's not til March. You may be half way through a divorce by then.

What do you want to do NOW to improve your marriage?

Time alone without kids?

OK, it's not going to be full weekends as you don't have easy babysitting. But you can afford to hire one.

How about you propose a night away... local so no wasted time travelling.

Do it midweek so the babysitter is school pick up to school drop off only.

If he will not prioritise that, then quite honestly I'd turn it into an ultimatum.

Forget Rome, not get into arguing about whether that's fun or not. Forget it.

If he doesn't want a night away with you in the short term, then you don't have a marriage (sorry to be blunt) and arguing about Rome is immaterial.

Cabrinha We were meant to be going away mid october, as 6 months ago, (when things were going ok between us, ) my SIL offered to mind our kids so we could get a weekend away and i gratefully accepted. Fast forward to last week, when dh mentioned he was going to be away the friday night of that weekend to watch a rugby match with the men of this group. I reminded him that we were meant to be going away that weekend (even though it should have been in his diary or at least in his head as it had been discussed in the weeks leading up to last week) He looked horrified, said he had totally forgotten, then sort of said well he had probably forgotten because we were getting on so badly lately he had assumed the weekend was cancelled sort of thing.

I got very upset at this, as i felt that in light of recent state of our marriage, all the more reason he should be keen to get away together so we could start to mend bridges and reconnect.

Long story short, he checked with SIL to see if we couple make it the following weekend, and she has yet to get back to us on that. Basically he has said if it has to be the original date, he will miss the rugby night, but if it can be moved to the following weekend then he can do both, bully for him!

He knows that if he had refused to go away with me at all in october then i would just never accommodate him on any other trips with this group again, as i would refuse to play happy couples with other people when this was so far from the truth. I was so so upset last week, as i felt him forgetting this weekend, if indeed he did really forget, or his ambivalence towards it, reflected deeply on his priorities and where he places me in his priorities.

Quitelikely i would love if he would go on this trip without me, but unlike most of the get togethers these guys have, this trip is stricly couples only and dh on his own or with another guy would stick out like a sore thumb. But i will certainly try and get him to do that.

Kickass yes, unfortunately he is very conscious of being seen as a good guy, a good lad, afraid to appear rude. His parents never ever praised him or any of his three brothers (and still don't) for any of their achievements, and still even now, he gets really fed up with his dad, and wishes that just once, his dad would say well done I'm proud of you. pERHAPS COS of that he places way too much emphasis on the good opinion of others, cos he doesn't have it in himself.

But at the end of the day, its the way he will make me feel, the guilt trip he will lay on me, and the subsequent quiet and resigned disappointment he will display towards me that i dread.

Also, he is going to want to get an answer from me fairly quickly after he broaches it as this is always booked way in advance apparently, he will be keen to let them know asap to get our name down for the charter flight and hotel deal, it's all done through one of these companies that specialise in rugby trips . It won't be something we can decide on doing the month before. But I also keep trying to explain to him that all these folk are at a different life stage to us, kids all grown up and away and the are much more free to commit to things like this 6 months in advance, with our squad of kids, there is so much going on, it's actually easier to book things maybe a month or so in advance when you have a fair idea on what's coming up that weekend in term of important matches, school plays, concerts etc things you don't really want to be missing out on.

sounds boring as shit to me. I could handle a few hours but not a whole weekend, and I wouldn't be scared to tell my OH that he can go on his own.
Still, not helpful to you.

Your problem is his sulking/martyr act when he doesn't get his own way. I know it's hard, but the only thing to do with a sulker is completely ignore and carry on your merry way, blatantly ignoring it. You could try and talk to him about how all this makes you feel, though, of course you also have to listen to him in return. He feels these trips are important for whatever reason, even if you think it's a silly one (feeling inferior to these people and grateful to be invited). You could point out that no one is obliged to accept an invitation, it's just an invitation not a command, and they won't mind if you don't go.

Money-wise, the putting it through the business and reclaiming VAT is dodgy by the way. You can't claim entertaining yourself and your wife as a business expense - 99% of the time you'll get away with it but if HMRC ever look at his accounts he'll have to try to explain this. Entertaining clients is a tax-deductible expense, but not entertaining yourself or employees. VAT is going to be fairly irrelevant for most of the costs. Has he managed to get himself into the mindset that if he puts it through the business it somehow gets deducted off as an expense so that equals 'free' to him personally? Nope.

He looked horrified, said he had totally forgotten, then sort of said well he had probably forgotten because we were getting on so badly lately he had assumed the weekend was cancelled sort of thing.

No, he had prepared in advance that he would look horrified once you finally brought the date up again. He can't have it both ways - either he had forgotten or he had decided to cancel the weekend, without telling you, in order to punish.

But at the end of the day, its the way he will make me feel, the guilt trip he will lay on me, and the subsequent quiet and resigned disappointment he will display towards me that i dread.

That is absolutely soul-destroying. It would make me feel depressed to put up with this in a colleague. I can't imagine how it would make me feel if I had this at home rather than my loving, respectful DP who is genuinely my friend and has my best interests at heart in everything we do.

The fact that you can afford £3k on a trip like this, doesn't mean you actually have to go on it. Especially when you don't want to! Why should that amount come out of family money just so you can have a mediocre-bad time? I could afford to buy my mum a day out to Swansea but that doesn't mean she should have to go!

I suspect that much as hanging around with rich people makes him feel that others will respect him more, being married to someone who has a good degree (probably from an elite uni/he didn't go to uni?) is another self-esteem badge. Doesn't mean he likes it in practice.

Gosh, doesn't he sound like a miserable fellow. Sorry you have to bear the brunt of it, Silver.

Also, I can't help but wonder who made him king of the world. You have to inconvenience your family and spend loads, apparently every year from now on, because he will sulk if you don't?? Is this really how you expected to be living at this point in your life?