*Amended* Please help me discuss this with DH without having a nasty row

[SilverStrand]

apologies i had to amend a couple of details in this and repost as was worried about being identified.

This is going to sound like a real first world problem, but there is a lot going on in our relationship at the moment which is making me more anxious about this issue than i normally would be.??

Dh and i have had a bad summer with some awful rows. We have had counselling in the past, (Relate - didn't find it helpful, we ended up resolving our own issues at that stage). Dh has come round a lot in the last few weeks and we are thinking of going away for a night in October if my bro and sis in law can look after our kids.??I would say we are not out of the woods yet, but we are at least working on it.

??The problem is that i know my dh is about to broach something with me, about a Rugby weekend away to Rome next March with some business associates of his and their wives/partners.??He will want to go on this weekend and will expect me to agree to it.

The issue i have is that i went away with this same group of people last March. It was two nights in Paris for a six nations match. Dh and i live 3 hours from the airport they fly from and had to take an extra night to stay over at the airport hotel the night before, then coming home, our flight was delayed and we ended up driving the 3 hours home at around 11 at night, and his poor parent had to wait up for us as they were looking after the kids.??

The weekend itself was pretty much a 48hour drinking session albeit in a posh hotel and with corporate hospitality for the match. We hardly got any time to ourselves, as soon as breakfast was over there was about an hour of free time before we reconvened in the bar for more drinks before the match, or before flight home.

They were all drinking champagne in the executive lounge at 9am on the way over. I am in NO way judging these folk, they are all nice people, and i love a drink myself, but it was so non stop it was actually oppressive and too much of a good thing.??

Also all bar one of the other couples were/are very very wealthy and there was a lot of talk of yachts and holiday homes in Portugal that i couldn't really relate to.

??Finally they are all in their mid fifties or older with grown up children and its not a big deal for them to skip off for a weekend here and there, and they do, which is great for them, but we have younger kids, the youngest is 5 and oldest 12, and it is a huge effort to get away, so much preparation has to be done, so many favours called in, that i would far rather make that sort of effort for a weekend away either just with my dh, or with a couple that we are really friendly with as opposed to this group of people who are really nice and that, but i have very little in common with.??

If i try and explain all this to my dh, he will sigh, and tell me i always focus on the negative and never want to try anything new, and that the fall out from me not wanting to go or not going, will be such that he probably won't want to go away anywhere with my on my own anyway, as he will be so pissed off about us missing out on this trip. (he can't go on his own, though i wouldnt mind it he did as its really a couples trip.)

There is a big part of him that is hugely flattered to be asked to join these people as we are not in their league in terms of income, but they seem to enjoy our company so want us there. Dh will be afraid to been seen to snub the invitation and will worry that we won't be asked away again.

??But i think its stupid to spend all that money (£3000 not inc spending money) on something I'm not that keen to do. I don't want to spend a weekend like that, and i told dh that last year on our way home when he was speculating as to whether we would be asked again on the next trip, i would be prepared to go maybe every 2 or 3 years but not every year.??Is this unreasonable and how do i put my point across assertively and clearly without having a row?

Sorry, but he's sounding more and more like an entitled twat, who plays the 'poor sad me' card, than someone with genuine self esteem issues. He's trying to place himself into the role his parents took - he calls the shots, he controls the money, he does the 'I'm so disappointed in you' routine if he doesn't get his way.

btw - it is fine for parents to book a weekend and just tell the kids 'tough' once in a while, even if the kids miss out on something. But - he doesn't sound like he is missing out on anything he wants. Ever. You have enough flexibility with time & money that most of the time he gets his way, and when he doesn't it becomes your fault and your problem, which he then punished you for.

Why not START the conversation - tell him that the weekend in October is his No. 1 priority or he can packs his bags. I know you won't want to, but he is telling you to let him have his own way or else.

Loaded or not what's to say these people aren't just looking to bump up numbers to qualify for group discounts. If DH says thanks but we'll have to decline this year he can still spend months kissing up to them in the hope of being asked again.

Leaving aside the other issues, would a fair and practical solution to the big rugby weekend argument be to propose taking turns? So, you get to choose a nice weekend away completely to your liking (possibly involving the DC's if that's what you'd like), then the following year he gets to choose?
Obviously, it's your turn next.

OP this sounds like my idea of hell. And my one and only point would be that I hated it last time, it wasn't convenient, it was a PITA for his parents and was an expensive shit weekend as far as you are concerned.

To be honest it sounds like he is desperate to keep up with the joneses. So much so that he doesn't even give a shit about whether you will enjoy it or not.

A simple 'no' from me Simon.

Thanks all, sorry for not replying before now, have had a busy few days.

You all make total sense and it is good to read some back up for my own feeling, to see i am not being unreasonable.

The fact that you can afford £3k on a trip like this, doesn't mean you actually have to go on it. Especially when you don't want to! Why should that amount come out of family money just so you can have a mediocre-bad time? I could afford to buy my mum a day out to Swansea but that doesn't mean she should have to go! Exactly Elephants, it is still a lt of dough, and just because we can afford it doesn't make it a good spend of money.

Gosh, doesn't he sound like a miserable fellow. Sorry you have to bear the brunt of it, Silver. He is far from miserable when he is socialising or with his customers, but i definitely see a different side to him at home, when i get so much of his irritation, poor humour, negativity and impatience when things don't go 100% his way.

If you intend to spend £3k on a weekend to Rome, suggest you go and do some lovely things, pre-arrange some sightseeing trips, it might bring out the best in everybody not to be sat drinking corporate hospitality.

If he isn't keen, then no go as it otherwise sounds a horrendous waste of money, childcare issues aside.

Well Cereal last year we had about 48 hours in Paris. In all that time, i got half an hours walk on friday evening around St Germain, an hour in the same area on the saturday morning before we had to reconvene in the bar before bus pick up and then an hour walking in the Jardins de Tuileries on Sunday morning before meeting up for Lunch and more wine and then off to Airport.

Plus its hard to be constanly "on" and sociable for 48 hours with people you know well, never mind people you don't know that well at all.

Dh would be reluctant to plan or book anything as he would prefer to "go with the flow" of the group, and the flow generally appears to be toward the nearest bar.

I don't really understand why you can't just say "No, I didn't enjoy it last time and don't want to go this time."

It seems weird to me that you seem to think your feelings don't count.

I don't know Hampton, when you say it like that, it sound really simple.

Maybe its because this group are connected with my dh through his business, and therefore part of me feels it is good that my dh is friendly with them, not because his business depends on them, but more that they are good fun, good company, and good to have on your side because they have some influence in the business my dh is in.

Plus, it feels a bit spoilt saying to my dh, oh i just can't be bothered to go to rome, stay in a nice hotel, eat lovely food and drink decent wine for a weekend, cos many women would love to have such an opportunity and i am turning it down, or wanting to turn it down.

It does sound a bit spoilt, on the face of it. But of course the reality is a but more complicated than that. My dh will just think i am a killjoy.

I really think the trip is a red herring. If everything else in your relationship was fine then spending a weekend away with business associates would be bearable and definitely endurable if it benefits your business. You'd be looking at it as a necessary evil of work. And it is quite common in certain fields for traditions like this to spring up and for it to be frowned upon to opt out. It's by no means guaranteed that you would be invited the following year if you declined one year.
Having said all that, your relationship is in trouble and your DH seems manipulative and bullying. You say you worked your issues out before but I'm guessing you didn't. You just swept them under the carpet and now you're tripping over them again. I'd suggest trying counselling again but this time on your own. Let your DH book the weekend away if he wants. You don't need to go and you don't need to make it a flashpoint because it:s really not about the break. It's about how your DH prioritises, how he refuses to hear you and his lack of respect for you. They are attitudes worth arguing and splitting up for (don't make it about a holiday instead).

A Place the thing is i wish he could go on his own, but he can't, because it really is a couples only trip. However, there are a few more trips throughout the year which he can attend on his own (two of which are in the next month alone) and he will go to these, so the trip next march, in the greater scheme of things, is not going to make or break his friendship with this group.

Dh's business does not in any way depend on this group of people, they are not customers, one of them in the financial controller of a supplier company of dh's for e.g., one of the guys actually supplies Software to my dh so dh is a customer of his and the others are all people in the same profession but in a bigger league, so to speak.

I thought we had resolve our issues. It is incredibly disheartening to realise that in fact we haven't. I could go for counselling on my own. I will look into that. I also want to go back to work, as i feel that the balance of power in our relationship is now totally in favour of dh. i believe that if i had my own job, even part time, however humble the role may be, i would have something of my own, some of my own identity back, so that i am not just there at his beck and call, having to be grateful at the prospect of a weekend away, even one like this which i do not relish at all!

Ah, sorry I wasn't clear. I meant say that you're not keen on going, let him ignore you and book the trip for both of you. A ticket with your name on it doesn't mean you need to go.

Then independent of that conversation, have the much needed conversations about respect and prioritising. I'm guessing if you're going back to work and that will impact on your DH's life in any way then it will throw a spotlight on the disparities in your relationship. Your DH will need to play a more active and reliable role at home if you're going to be working out of the house. His attitude to those demands will highlight the fundamental issues you need to address.

A Place ah yes, i see what you mean now. Just because he agrees to go (for both of us) doesn't mean i actually have to go when the time comes.

I suspect my going back to work will either be the making or the breaking of us. One thing for sure is that the World Order, as it has been this last 8 years, will change radically, and i am not sure how he will react to that.

Have no idea what i will do. I live in a very rural area where opportunities are very limited, so my grand plans may come to nothing, but i am certainly going to give it my best shot, I need something in my life thats unconnected to housework and childcare.

Do focus on going back to work. Perhaps you could freelance from home? I would try counselling too because it will help you to get your confidence back, to feel heard and to decide what you want from your relationship.

I've been in your situation with my STBXH and one of our flashpoints was over a hotel trip with business associates!

I started working as a consultant and went to counselling. The latter was incredibly helpful in teasing out the issues I needed to address in our relationship and to see everything more clearly. Another word of advice I'd offer is don't move into working in his business. You need to build your confidence and identity separate from your DH so you can approach him on an equal footing.

FWIW I don't think that it's spoilt at all.

A Place -def not, we have always agreed that we could not share a workplace as well as a home, maybe that in itself is illuminating!

Thanks vivacia, that's good to know

Oh my God I am exhausted.

Last night, dh broached the topic of the weekend away. I told him that i really wasn't keen to do it, explained all the reasons why, and told him that i was happy for him to go along without me if there was any way that he could make it.

He pulled the long face, sighed, looked all resigned, barely met my eye whilst i tried to explain this all to hi,, then when i was finished, he basically said all the following:
It beggars belief that i would turn down an opportunity to stay at a five star hotel in a beautiful city like Rome and that we were lucky enough to be invited to .
That he predicted a negative response from me, because i am never prepared to try new things, that i always look for the obstacles in situations like this.
He said i was unsupportive to him, as he wanted to go on this trip and by me refusing to go then that meant he was unable to go too.
He said that there is no give our take on my part, in our marriage, that normal loving couples do their best to accommodate each other and that i was not doing this.

When i reminded him that i had actually flagged it up to him on the way home from the last trip, and several times since, that i didn't want to make it an annual thing, and that he was still going to get to see plenty of this group during the year, (3 outings alone before Christmas) and that i would much rather we made the effort to either go away ourselves on a trip like that our with another couple we like to spend time with, his response to a trip on our own was "sure what would we do??" and when i suggested going along with another couple his response was "sure they don't have a pot to piss in" in reference to the fact that they are a bit hard up at the moment, and therefore would not be able to afford a trip such as this.

I tore in to him for being so horrid and derogatory about good friends of ours and said that i would rather spend a rainy weekend in a tent with this couple than a 5star weekend in Rome with this other group any time, and he at least had the grace to take those words back as being offensive.

He kept on at me for ages about my negativity and eventually i just went to bed exhausted. This morning, he left for work in not great form. Then he dropped home later on and the whole issue came up again. It told him that what he said to me last night in terms of calling me negative, unsupportive, predictable, no joie de vivre etc was hurtful and unfair. He refused to take it back and said that he meant it all, it was the truth as far as he sees it, and if i don't like then then its too bad.

After some more words, he left the house. Then he rang me from the car, just to clarify everything he had said, and continued to insist that i am all those things as well as entrenched in my views, irrational in such views and selfish and unappreciative of the lifestyle he works hard to provide for us, told me all the ways a normal happy couple should interact, (the implication being that we are not a normal happy couple because of my shortcomings) and then told me that he has written a whole pile of stuff down about what he sees as being the reasons for our problems which he will discuss with me when i get back from a visit to my mum and the weekend. I didn't take all this lying down , i countered it by defending myself and pointing out all the ways i have supported him down through the years, but by the time he hung up, i was so totally and utterly drained and exhausted i just broke down in tears and cried for around half an hour.

I feel utterly hopeless that we can ever see eye to eye at all. He is hugely discontented with me, i feel very much irritation and anger from him, no love no tenderness no companionship even.

I feel very very attacked, and alone.

I bloody knew this rugby weekend would precipitate this type of situation which is why i posted about it all. It was predictable and now it has happened. I can't see us going away on this weekend in October now at all. He will not want to, and if i am honest, i don't relish the thought of it either.

We are in a mess

He sounds like a nasty overbearing bully, trampling all over you

Please do not give in. Otherwise there will be more of this crap from him.

Start individual counselling and looking at making more of your own life - not just work, but also training, hobbies, friends etc.

Thanks Scatter I am making moves to get back in to the workplace, and no shall not let him bully me. But it just takes so much out of me in terms of energy just dealing with him when he is like this, which energy should be invested into my kids, not this negative treadmill of arguments.

But yes, i am going to find a job, and carve out a life for myself, so that everything doesn't revolve around him all the time.

I am not working and am currently making an effort to get back to work. My hands are tied without having financial independence. I understand if we separate my husband would have to pay but saying that and the reality is so different. My husband is also trying to bully me into a trip but as it is to my family I can at Least stand firm. Though it is so draining fighting all the time. Best of luck with is all.. OC

Oh and isn't it so easy for him to blame you for everything, what a cop out.

He sounds awful OP. You know that this isn't what a healthy, happy relationship feels like. It sounds as though his plan is to continue brow-beating you until you do as you are told.

I wouldn't do as I was told.

And I wouldn't take this. Put the phone down or walk out of the room.

Re the arguing, I would just disengage when he starts the bullying - either put the phone down, walk away or keep repeating a stock phrase such as "This does not work for me".

Don't forget that No is a complete sentence.

Agreed. "It's not ok to talk to me like that" once and then phone down or out of the room if he continues.

Vivacia Thanksi won't let myself be told what to do, or browbeaten into doing something, but god is it exhausting dealing with his negativity and constant accusations of being unreasonable, unsupportive, ungrateful etc and then the resigned martyr like attitude he has that his life is so hard that his wife is so hard to live with because of this. It has made me lose so much respect for him, to see the spoilt attitude and poor me demeanour he carries on with.

Ocotber sorry to hear you are dealing with similar. There should be a support thread somewhere for women like us with difficult dh's !