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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How can you tell when someone you meet is a narcissist?

85 replies

lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 09:47

I've been doing online dating. One person in particular I got a gut feeling there is something 'wrong'

It made me think that perhaps online dating is a place where you find people like this because nobody there has first hand experience of them.

I was just wondering whether the more experienced here know what the red flags to look for are?

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Justrestinginmyaccount · 29/08/2014 10:06

I haven't done a lot of OD, but these are the main things that would put me off.

  1. Somebody who just talks about themselves, and never asks about you. Classic narcissist sign!
  1. Somebody who starts getting sexual after a few warm up emails. Others may not object to this, but I hate it.
  1. If you gut tells you something is wrong then listen to it. It is there to protect you, and if something seems "off" then that is usually because it is.
lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 10:08

Thanks Just. So is the sexual thing always a red flag for narcissism? I remember someone saying to me that narcissists seeks out sexual conquests to provide entertainment for themselves.

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lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 10:10

Also, I think sometimes people will ask about you, but you can tell they are only going through the motions because they know that's what they are supposed to do.

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Justrestinginmyaccount · 29/08/2014 10:11

I wouldn't say necessarily narcissistic, but it does indicate a one way mind of thinking that I would find a huge turn off.

But I think it all comes down to your comfort levels. If you feel happy with what they are saying; then it isn't a problem. But when you get that unpleasant feeling in your gut; then you should definitely listen to it!

Vitalstatistix · 29/08/2014 10:12

It is not that common. The chances are that you meet common garden arseholes rather than people with narcissictic personality disorder but if you are concerned, this site lists the symptoms.
obviously laypeople don't have the skills to diagnose, but it's good to be aware of the condition.

Squidstirfry · 29/08/2014 10:19

The term narcissist is over-used where people just mean 'self centred dick'

You can spot a self centred dick because they will show off, talk about material possessions, probably have 'wandering eyes' (very rude), interrupt you when your talking and keep on about themselves. HTH

lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 10:45

But I think people who just aren't very nice reveal themselves obviously from the beginning. Whereas narcissists are incredibly charming and likeable at first apparently.

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Vitalstatistix · 29/08/2014 10:55

So are a lot of arseholes.

LookingThroughTheFog · 29/08/2014 11:11

Things that would set off alarm bells for me would be hearing lots of stories where something has happened that's someone else's fault. There's always someone else to blame. Manipulation is key too - so foot-stamping or sulking to get their own way. Again, their sulky or angry mood will be someone else's fault.

Charm offensives and talking about themselves are secondary to me - after all, lots of people do this when nervous. It's more about what they relate (always themselves in a good light, the hero, the poor victim, the larger than life character rather than the 'true' character) and how they listen to you that's key.

BertieBotts · 29/08/2014 11:15

Obviously take with a pinch of salt, YMMV, etc. But this is my experience, mixed with various things I have read.

They are usually charming, yes, almost oddly so, you find yourself wanting to be in their presence but sometimes you can feel a little bit intimidated by them. At the same time you quite often can't put a finger on why you want to be around them - it's not as simple as them having special talent or experience which is fascinating, it's just them. They can be very beautiful or very ordinary but there is definitely something about them which is attractive.

They are quite often open early on (think 3 weeks, not 2 dates, although some will on a very early meeting) about horrible things in their past. This makes you think "What an open and honest person", feel honoured that they trust you enough to tell you these things and also feel sorry for them that they have had so much going on. What you fail to realise initially is that most people are inhibited about revealing things like this because they are protecting themselves. The narcissist doesn't need to protect themselves from others because they gain more from inducing these feelings in you than they stand to lose if you turn out to be an arse - you can't out narc a narcissist. (It's quite explosive when that does happen though.) Plus they don't really have a developed emotional maturity, so it doesn't matter to them that they have spilled out their heart to someone they might not know in a week's time.

They also have an aloofness, so you feel like there's always something they're not saying or holding back. This in contrast with the stark openness is intriguing and you find yourself wanting to figure them out. Quite often they're quite proud of the fact that "nobody can figure me out" (but that might not be apparent until later).

They love to mimic - so they will quite often have a love for quotes, song lyrics, etc, and you may notice them "parroting" things they have heard somebody else say (but I think this is usually unnoticeable at first). They usually don't get on well with their family and may seem like a "black sheep". Of course their family could be lovely or they could be arseholes so it's hard to tell, if the family are arseholes, then it could be justified that they aren't close to them. Watch also for a pattern that they go through friends quite easily, either cutting off friends for quite small seeming reasons, having a lot of friends who are quite transient, having a very on/off relationship with certain friends where they are sworn enemies one week and best buddies the next.

They will be intense, wanting to move a relationship on quickly, and can be quite possessive too, wanting to spend a lot of time together ASAP. This is what I fell for after a string of guys with commitment issues, this seemed amazing. It's actually a red flag because again it points to that underdeveloped emotional maturity.

BertieBotts · 29/08/2014 11:16

YY to Fog as well.

PlumpPartridge · 29/08/2014 11:21

Bertie you have got me worried about myself now!

They are quite often open early on (think 3 weeks, not 2 dates, although some will on a very early meeting) about horrible things in their past. - I do this, but mostly (I think) because I don't have much of a mental filter.

Plus they don't really have a developed emotional maturity - erm, maybe that's true Blush

They also have an aloofness, so you feel like there's always something they're not saying or holding back. - tick

They love to mimic - so they will quite often have a love for quotes, song lyrics, etc, and you may notice them "parroting" things they have heard somebody else say (but I think this is usually unnoticeable at first). - tick

They will be intense - um, relatively.....

The other stuff wasn't true for me but these all rang a bell. Could I be narcish and not know it?! Confused

Xenadog · 29/08/2014 11:27

Bertie you have describe my ex to a T. After we split I actually considered him to be a sociopath. I wonder how closely sociopathy and narcissism are related?

For me when I met exp I wasn't physically attracted to him but there was some sort of weird magnetism. Now when I think back I shudder in horror. My first instinct though was there wasn't something right about I him and that he was a liar. I wish I had heeded that's little inner voice.

lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 11:48

Thanks for replies. I think one of the main differences between a narc and a sociopath is that a narc cares very much how others perceive them.

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Miggsie · 29/08/2014 11:58

I also find a narcissist has a hierarchy view of the world with themselves at the top.
They barely acknowledge other people, let alone that they might have feelings.
So they tend to make dismissive remarks, particularly of people in "low grade" jobs, children, women and animals.
Killer phrase for me is "they should know their place".
They also like to show off how clever they are - they do things because they can, not because they need to, or should. They may also have a friend or parent who "explains them" to other people.
They are able to justify everything they do in terms of their own happiness or emotional responses - they don't consider others.

They also tend to talk about people only in relation to themselves, how people treat them, how they have supported people (to make themselves look good) , how grateful these people have been, how horrid someone has been, how mistreated they were etc etc.

They also indulge your opinions or feelings but don't acknowledge them or act on them. So if you were upset they'd make platitudes then move the conversation on, they wouldn't ask how they could make you feel better, but they would impose their view of how you SHOULD feel and if you don't feel that way, insinuate that you are defective for having the feelings you have.

So, if you said "I was upset because my cat died" they wouldn't say"how awful for you" or "I'm sorry your cat died" they would say "oh well, cats die all the time" or "it's only a cat" or "I find you shouldn't get upset about animals" then move on to another topic.

They also encourage very fast intimacy to make a bond (from you) and make you feel you are close to them, but this is just so they can manipulate you better.

A true narcissist is incredibly subtle and clever at hiding their true nature - they often have little acolytes who reinforce their view of the world. It will come out slowly. I love the summation of a narcissist which is "that's enough about me, lets talk about me".

Miggsie · 29/08/2014 11:59

Yes, agree to your last post - a narcissist wants other to join in their own self image as the perfect being. They punish those who don't toe the line.

Sociopaths generally don't give a shit what others think.

LookingThroughTheFog · 29/08/2014 12:33

Partridge, it's tricky, but the fact that you're actually aware of your character traits is already a good sign.

There are other signs of NOT being a narcissist. For example, something's gone wrong, and it was your fault, do you a) 'fess up, apologise, and make a note of how to avoid future problems or b) Really hope that nobody notices while you work like the blazes to fix the problem, or c) assume that it's someone else's fault, try desperately to find someone to blame, and when you've found someone to blame, do so loudly with everyone to hear.

A is ideal. B is human. C is narcissistic.

Jealousy is another massive narcissistic trait, but it's also a human trait, and again, it's how you deal with it that's the issue. Narcissistic responses to jealousy are sabotage, or if that's not possible/appropriate, finding something about you to play on to turn the attention back to you.

If, when someone achieves something great you find yourself responding with 'I wish it could be me... but it's not, so hurrah for them, let's celebrate their achievement, and I'll just have to work harder later and wait for my turn.' then that's a good sign that you're not a narcissist.

Basically, it's actually OK to have poor social skills if you know you have and you don't let them constantly drain other people. It's when you simply can't stand the vague image that your halo has slipped so you start frantically trying to reposition it - that's when there's a problem.

PlumpPartridge · 29/08/2014 12:36

Oh, I always assume it was my fault and apologise profusely. I find it very hard to pretend I didn't fuck up as I assume everyone already knows somehow and that the guilt is writ large on my face Blush

Thanks looking Thanks

badbaldingballerina123 · 29/08/2014 14:03

I think there's another type that isn't quite as in your face. The victim who's full of sob story's about being mistreated. They're not arrogant , in fact they are extra humble and often self depreciating . Extra points if they can squeeze out a few tears while relaying some terrible story. They appear highly empathic and sensitive and you could mistake this openesss and show of sensitivity as they are confiding in you. They're not .Good old mr sensitive . Bring on the tears. Get the tissues and expect to hear lots more about their feeeeelings.

If you have clear boundrys I think you have little to worry about .

badbaldingballerina123 · 29/08/2014 14:08

Meant to add , I think triangulating and referring to themselves in the third person is common. Ie , everyone says badbald is the most hard working person they know. Even so and so said it.

Overall I think they make people feel uncomfortable. It might be what they say , the nosy questions they ask or just the way they look at you. Most people ignore this out of misplaced politeness , but most people recall a uncomfortable feeling they that ignored.

BertieBotts · 29/08/2014 14:39

YY Plump - and this is why it's hard to spot because lots of people have traits which narcs have but not from the same root, if that makes sense.

Oddly I was writing the list while thinking "I so do this". I'm pretty open even to strangers and don't really have the horror of "someone finding out!" my worst experiences because I don't feel ashamed of them.

I also love song lyrics but my entire facebook/twitter feed isn't comprised solely of them, which my ex's is, when he's not deleting his account in a huff or creating multiple different ones. I also didn't realise at first but after three years with him I noticed that he never had an original thought or comment, he literally always recycled something he'd heard somebody else say and quite often he didn't understand what he was saying, so he'd say it in the wrong context. For example watching X factor he'd pick a singer he didn't like and say "Oh, she's totally flat." He assumed it meant not talented, not realising it's a musical term meaning she's singing too low.

Also similar to what Fog says - we tend to, as humans and in British culture generally, assume responsibility for small accidents and feel embarrassed about them even when they aren't our fault. We don't do this consciously. So if you're out together and a drink gets spilled, or some other thing where it's not really immediately clear what has happened and it's not a big deal but it's annoying, most people's immediate reaction is to jump up and say "Oh shit, sorry!!!" and try to mop it up or prevent it from spilling even further. Internally you're thinking "Aaaargh why did I just do that, that was so stupid, why didn't I realise?"

When the other person is also a normal/emotionally healthy/nice person, they are also thinking the same thing and so in most cases it ends up as a "No no, I'm sorry! It was my fault!" or when it's obvious whose fault it was the other person is mortified that you might be upset so they go out of their way to reassure you and say "Please don't worry! It's just an accident, it really doesn't matter!" and feel stupid for leaving their paper in the way of the drink getting spilled or whatever even if they're secretly pissed off about something getting wet or ruined.

The narc and/or arsehole won't have this reaction. They will assume whatever it is can't have been their fault, therefore it must be yours, or the waitress or the table or anything - they will look for someone to blame. Usually, it's you. Unless they're a very obvious arsehole they probably won't go all out angry at you, but they will subtly let you know they are not pleased about it. Because this ties into your internal monologue of "OMG, I'm so clumsy, that was totally my fault and he's going to be pissed off because his clothes are wet", you accept their reaction as justified and don't notice anything off about it. Because the underlying feelings of this kind of incident are unconscious and over so quickly, you're not likely to analyse how you would react in the actual situation, you assume their reaction is justified because instead you imagine how you would react/feel if someone very obviously tipped a drink on you on purpose.

This is really magnified if you have low self esteem but it happens even for people with normal self esteem. You assume you're in the wrong and hence others are in the right and expect them to react as such.

Over time in the relationship this kind of reaction happens for everything, there will be little snide comments in between about your "clumsiness" or "laziness" or whatever (which again match up with your internal idea of yourself so you don't question them) and gets stronger and stronger until they are full on physically threatening and screaming over a minor incident.

BertieBotts · 29/08/2014 14:51

Boundaries are definitely important. The problem is that because most people respect boundaries without being asked we are not used to defending them. Narcs and other abusers are also experts at pushing boundaries so slowly that we don't notice, or at framing the idea for you to move or pull down your boundaries as being reasonable or compromise. Their idea of "compromise" is "You don't want to go past this line. But I want to be two feet over the line. So how about we just go one foot over the line, that's a fair and equal compromise."

That's not. That's like the first rule of bartering where you first ask for a price much lower than you're actually willing to pay, and end up with the price you wanted in the first place, but you've ripped off the seller in the process.

Compromise is nothing to do with meeting in the middle, and instead should be about seeing if both people can get what they want without compromising any boundaries at all. If that's not possible (in a relationship) then it may be a dealbreaker.

lottieandmia · 29/08/2014 16:10

Thanks for your replies. This is all ringing massive alarm bells for me about this particular person.

I met him, he seemed utterly charming. As you say, I felt I wanted to be in his company and felt very attracted to him. After knowing him a bit longer though, there was something about him that makes me uncomfortable although I couldn't put my finger on what it is. He seems very immature for someone in their 30s - I would say he seems quite childish.

He was always giving me examples of how highly regarded and wonderful he is. How everyone likes him, how he's at the top of him game at work. Some of the things he says sound rehearsed. He does seem to look down on other people. So he was asked for ID by a security person and he pointed at some other people and said, 'how come they asked me for ID and not those scummy looking people?'

He would push and push to get his own way. If I said I didn't want to talk about something, he would go on and on and on and wear me down until I told him. If I wasn't budging on something he wanted me to do then he would throw in a flattering remark, to manipulate. The boundaries thing sounds very familiar - ie not a compromise but tricking to make me do something I didn't want to.

He phoned me (and still does actually) in the middle of the night. I have told him that because of a health problem I have, it's really important that I get a good night's sleep. But he still carries on dong it. Likewise, I asked him not to do something during sex and he carried on. He would keep on texting me to say 'hurry up and get home, I'm bored' on a weekend.

He will spend any amount of time and money to achieve some aim he has which is usually to do with making him look good and making him feel important.

I don't feel that he actually likes me at all, but I'm merely part of whatever game he's playing right now. There is something missing where he just doesn't seem to empathise at all with other people.

There are loads of other things as well.

So my question is, what is the most effective way of getting rid of him? If I ignore him, will he go away? Or will I have to block him completely? It will mean I have to change my number again, causing great disruption for me.

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