Would it bother you never getting married?

[Wineandmorewine]

Hi all,

DP and I have been together for 6 years, we have a DD2 and I am currently 5 months pregnant with our second, have also just bought our own house and due to move into that in November.

Last night we were discussing the upcoming wedding of our best and DP stated that he has decided he never wants to get married and is totally against it! This has come as a bolt out of the blue as it is something which we had always planned to do (have had many conversations about what type of wedding we would like etc) and also something that is very important to me. When I asked why the change of heart he said that he has seen so many go wrong eg. His parents and grandparents and he wouldn't want to put out DC through that.

Whilst I understand his point, I also said that regardless of whether or not we are married, a break up would effect our children either way and that if we are married we will be in a better place legally.
So I'm asking, what would you do? Do I give up on ever getting married and keep things as they are? Do I leave him in pursuit of marriage?? Which seems silly as it's him I want to marry! Do I try and convince him or is it best I leave it and hope he changes his mind?
Has anyone ever been in this situation?
Thanks for any advice

Ok so there's differences in tax that can't be equalled when not married. Also non married are always playing catch up when circumstances change.

Just out of interest, can you still share in your partners pension if you aren't married?

I'm wondering what else can't be matched with those who are married.

Just wanted to add that I find it surprising how many people value themselves or their partners contribution by the money they are lucky enough to earn. I know if very hardworking devoted people on minimum wage who I'd rate far more highly than others on a very good wage. To me, the best chance of success is when the couple themselves as equal, whatever their wage. I'm no less a person for earning less than I did when I was earning 5 times what my DH did when he was doing his apprenticeship.

Well, giving up your job to work for your husband doesn't seem any kind of common purpose to me, nor a practical solution to anything bar his convenience; sorry, but that cautionary tale isn't working for me. I'm not blaming the victim, just saying it would have been an idiotic idea even if they'd never split up IMO.

Yep, I get DP's pension if he pegs it. It just seems to be inheritance tax that holds the marital gun to the head.

Motherinferior - if he decides to run off with Mavis in accounts, or if you decide you want to end the relationship, I think you'll find he'll urn nominate you as us next of kin for pension purposes.

And with pension schemes it isn't always as simple as the person nominating their partner as their next of kin. The pension scheme administrators often have firm rules.

Motherinferior - she didn't give up her job to work for him, she gave up her job to mind their children. As many people do.

It's not just inheritance tax, it's other things that are also discretionary if your partner dies and you are not married. Like death in service benefit from his workplace - if you are not married the administrators of the scheme can decide they don't want to give it to you. if you are married, they are obliged to, under the terms of these schemes. And you won't get widowed parents allowance either, it's based on your spouse's national insurance contributions. You will need these things and more if you have kids and your other half dies.

Believe me, me and my kids are the worst case scenario, as my husband died when they were young, still needing childcare when I worked, and those sums don't add up very well even with every bit of financial help, never mind without it. Even though I had always worked, to sort everything out alone when you are fucking devastated is beyond hard, without further financial complications or having to leave your family home. It was the first thing my kids asked me: "Are we going to be able to stay here?"

It has been extremely hard anyway, but being able to stay in the same house, go to the same school, be near their friends was absolutely crucial for my kids (and for me, really). I work full time, they are now teenagers and we are all still here and breathing in and out, I have been a good little stoical bunny, but it is still, as any widow or widower will tell you, a big fat crock of shit.

Actually I have a lot of sympathy with those who are saying Why should we get married, load of patriacal (sp sorry) crap. We didn't get married till we had popped out a couple children, but I have reason to be thankful that we did now. It doesn't mean that I am with hindsight some sort of surrendered wife with no anger about society's many misogynies.

I suppose this is going to come over as rather melodramatic and alarmist and of course it is a minority of partners who die young but it is something to mull over. Yes I suppose the state does blackmail you into it - but I wouldn't have liked to have had to cope with a lot of financial arguments and traumas as well as everything else.

Stalinssister - sorry you have had to go through this. Even now after all these years, it's not easy for you.

OP - you are both very stressed just now. A sibling for your oldest child is on the way. You will both move into a new house and the financial responsibilities that come with that. Both these things are changes to be adjusted to. At least you've advised him that you want to discuss the matter of marriage again at a later date. I wonder if the weight of more responsibility looming large is weighing heavy on his shoulders and he wants to try and gain some control of his life ?

It seems to me that once a man is a Dad, what's his motivation for marrying the child's/children's mother ? Unless he wants to. I understand some men are upset that their partner does not want to get married, sometimes despite having children together.

Once again, I do not understand why people have children, without getting married, then get upset when marriage does not look like it is likely to happen. He's got kids and he's still a single man. Talk about best of both worlds !

I understand some married men act like they are single anyway for that exact reason.

" If you want me to have your child, then you'd better marry me first"

It's the wording that may earn you a pasting as if impregnation and marrying is something done to you rather than you having a say over.

"If we are going to bring a child into the world, then we should make adequate legal and financial provision for our family"

""If we are going to bring a child into the world, then we should make adequate legal and financial provision for our family"

This.

I quite fancy Mavis in accounts myself, personally. She's probably got a better pension than DP. I must proposition her on Monday.

And that is precisely what many of us find objectionable, the confusion of the legal and the personal. And indeed with co-parenting with a relationship between the parents.

What I find objectionable is that there is no point reminding the op what the ideal circumstances would have been, what she should have done, should have said, should have felt etc....

It's too late for that.

OP if you're still reading, I was in this situation. I was torn between wanting the legal protection because I deep down feared the worst (that he would screw us/me if we split up). I no longer wanted to marry him when I saw that the whole situation had been constructed to suit him, benefit him and to leave me and our children at his mercy when we split.

We also had the battle about my dc2's sur name. He was so furious that I had actually got some power. I ended up backing down out of fear, because when I saw how he reacted I would have had to have left him immediately and I didn't feel ready. So foolishly I backed down and had two children with his sur name, no legal rights at all, while his career went from strength to strength and I was stuck at home with two children doing all the childcare and all the housework. I suggested that I get a weekend job so that I could buy my own tiny place. I did bring it to his attention all the time that I had no legal protection. But not only was he not prepared to relinquish any of his own assets in order to protect me, but he was not prepared to do the childcare that would have been required for me to have an income and get a mortgage on a tiny studio.

And when men, fathers don't want to get married, more often than not, that is the mindset you're dealing with. So it's just pushing the OPs head into her own mistakes to stand on the sidelines having a theoretical debate about what would have been best. It's too late for that when there are children.

OP I just had to leave. I had no rights over anything. Our home was his house and that was never going to change. I'm glad I left. It was tough for a few years but I had a 7 year financial recovery plan and I have achieved most of my goals now. I have my own home (in my name only!) I have a job and I feel more secure now on my own than I did with him. He has to maintenance and boy does he pay it reluctantly but still, my only regret is that I gave him too many chances and he just saw nothing wrong in leaving me totally exposed while simultaneously protecting himself from me!! .

Good Luck OP

PS, and I wasn't a door mat. I probably brought about the demise of the relationship quicker by challenging everything that was unfair all the time, wanting to go out to work at the weekends, wanting to buy another place in my name....... I regularly challenged him and it cuased a lot of arguments, but I'm glad now. It fast forwarded the situation. It got me to the end much quicker, to the point where I could start my own recovery plan.

hak it is very difficult to put in place the same legal safeguards for the unmarried.

Why is it necessary to say publicly to the world that this is the person you choose to love, etc? I personally couldn't give a flying fig who is married and who is not. If you love someone, you love them, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

When someone says "I'm good enough to have your child", worded like that, it is immediately putting yourself in a subservient position. Choosing to have a child is a joint and equal decision, surely, if you are in a loving relationship, whether married or not.

Naturally, make sure ALL financial worries are covered by legal documents. Wills, home-ownership in joint names, savings accounts, Trust Funds for your children, etc. I think the only thing that has been a stumbling block for us is DP's private pension. I have my own pension plans from when I was working, but since being a SAHM, they lapsed, whereas DP's continued. If anything were to happen to him, I would not be entitled to any pay-out from his pension plans. When I worked for a large computer company, however, if anything should happen to me, he will get a £25,000 payout as legal next-of-kin. That is the only thing that annoys me a bit, but it's not a huge worry.

As pension plans are not performing very well generally anyway, we have, in recent years, been exploring other options that will benefit either (or both) of us, so we'll get our futures covered anyway (which are looming, unfortunately, as we are both now approaching retirement age)

Actually, another thing I just thought of, Fathers in an unmarried relationship have no legal say in anything their children do. For instance, they are not permitted to take the children out of the country without the Mother's say-so and any permission forms that need to be signed for school (and hospital treatment as well, I believe) have to be done by the Mum.

I am sure I'm correct in that? Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it's worth raising the point.

F0ssil - sorry to hear your story. You had a rough time for sure, with the wrong partner. Glad to read things are working out for you now.

Well, mothers have to jump through a few hoops too. Getting passports requires an extra step. Unmarried fathers do have protection from the hague convention, from the passports requiring witnessed signatures. I couldn't just emigrate to Australia.

I think that the law should stay as it is because there should be a different between a married father who is invested in to his own children's lives and a man that impregnated a stranger on a stag night. Those are two extreme expamples but really the former does need to have more legal rights than the latter.

Thanks Evan. FOr me, the right choice was to leave and start again. But in the case of the OP, I thought maybe her partner needed a reminder that she had some choices too. (wrt the baby's sur name). It might make him think about what he stands to lose! He mgiht be assuming that she'll just accept the situation and it might make him value what he stands to lose if he sees her as a stronger person with choices.

Hakluyt and Motherinferior - cohabiting with children is anti-feminist UNLESS you are the wealthiest party whether by work or trust fund. Nine times out of ten the woman concedes to the man by taking responsibility for the rump of the childcare. So even if you've continued with your work full time, it's likely you who gets the call when Ptolemy has earache at school. And you at the school gate at 9am and 3.30pm each day, or you who has arranged for someone else to be there and you who has written instructions about their afternoon activities. And it will be you who thought about their PE kit and worried about him thinking he's rubbish at maths. It's a lot of headspace and heart space. If something goes wrong in your life you and your children deserve protection. It's neglectful of you to waive your children's rights to financial security insurance. And hideous that you dress it up as some sort of feminist principle.

Evans - not true re unmarried fathers. If they are named in the birth certificate, they have parental responsibility.

"The following are examples of important decisions in a child’s life that should have the agreement of everyone with parental responsibility:
Where a child lives
Whether or not a child receives medical treatment
How and where a child is to be educated
Which, if any, religion a child follows
Deciding on the child’s surname and forenames and registering their birth
Giving consent for a child to leave the country, whether for a holiday or permanently."

Polonium - whilst you might have a case in point in SOME cases, this is not always true. At all! My DP took his very fair share in taking days off work for illnesses. He took them to their activities (organised some too). He did Maths homework with them, I did Literacy.

Again, that is a very sweeping statement. Being in a married relationship with children, all the things you outlined above can also be true. If something goes wrong in your life, you and your children (and your DP/DH) also deserve protection, married or not. By simply being unmarried, how is this neglectful? My DP and I never married. I take great exception to your assumption that we have been neglectful.