'Why can't I have a gentle dad like Ben has?'

[LordFocus]

This is what my son said to me earlier today, He's 6, (have name changed Ben obviously!).

I'd love some opinions/advice from you guys please about the situation our family finds itself in.

The story goes like this: Our family comprises me and my DH who have DD who's 9 and DS who is 6.We are a fortunate family who work hard but also have what I consider a lot - put it this way, our problems are generally third world problems so nothing out of the ordinary.

The big trouble is my DH is a pain in the arse. He's a fly in the ointment of what should and could be a really lovely home life for us all. I consider me and the DC's to be quite emotionally healthy people. Me and DD in particular are quite reflective and are always willing to admit when we are wrong etc. DS is sweet, quirky and sensitive.

I have had problems with DH in past. There was a time when I suspected him as an emotional abuser. But I've since researched and read, and thought and thought and (giving him the benefit of the doubt) I have resigned myself to the fact that he could even have aspergers syndrome. This is because he has no empathy with anyone, has no 'soul', he cannot see anything from anyone's point of view but his own, lives in his own (often grumpy or silent) little world, has no communication, gets frustrated dealing with 'emotional' things or feelings. In short it's rather like living with a cardboard cut out sometimes - no sparkle.

At the moment he is stressed at work. I know his work and job well and whereas I can see it might be a bit tedious at the moment he gets paid well, he is liked by his boss, he has the ability to do it and there is a lot of potential there for owning his role/making it his own/getting promoted or headhunted. But he doesn't like it and that's that.He won't see it as a challenge or any of the positives just the negatives and is taking it out on us - especially my son.

Once upon a time he would have taken it out on me but has learnt over the years that I won't put up with it and he has changed his behaviour towards me quite a lot. Then he was AWFUL to my mum for years. My DD is cleverer than him too and so he panders to her as she is too smart and he know its. That leaves my sweet, innocent, defenseless son who he just grumbles at, snaps at, moans at.

DH, for instance, gets visibly frustrated over small things to do with my son. Yesterday he went on a trip to the shops and took the kids while I was cooking tea. This morning I asked DD what he was like during the trip - grumpy or happy? She said he was grumpy. Then, as it transpires she tells me that DH had gone as far as calling DS a 'disgusting little boy' because he dropped a small piece of biscuit in his new car. I was furious to hear this. At this point - while DD was describing the trip - DS pipes up with the question 'why don't I have a dad like Ben's - who is (thinks about it for a moment)..gentle?'

I came straight home from school run and rang up DH telling him I'd had enough of his bullying ways, that people are out there working in sewers and for minimum wage and that he ought to see how lucky he is and stop taking out his mood on us. I told him if he doesn't stop bullying his poor, sweet son I'll take serious action.

DH listens and starts to weep - a thing he always does - and tries to say it was a joke about the disgusting comment. I told him I don't believe him.

Trouble is I don't want to be melodramatic, but I also need to think if I should be with him flogging away at the circle of his behaviour. I sometimes hate my DH, but on good days I can see that he's just a ignorant and often arrogant man that is in need of some support and understanding/a lot of guidance, and that like it or not I've married him and he is the DC's father so get on with it and get over it. It's such a borderline case, but I'm worried I'm desensitised to my situation after so long and that I'm not capable of making a rational decision about our future of happiness or about the effect his behaviour could be having on us.

BTW we have tried Relate a few years back because of his emotional abuse and DH went to counselling and the therepist prescribed anger management techniques. It worked for a bit.. but then back to the start we go again. So what do you think from this recount of the problem? Should I stick with him or would we be better off without him? If it were me i'd have gone, but the kids do love him and he tries to be a good dad most of the time. Is it worth carrying on and taking the rough with the smooth? Thanks...xx

I think you might be in the market for a trial separation. If you're not sure if it's better if he stays or goes then I think you have to try out the options. You know what life's like when he's there. You probably don't know what life would be like without him around 24/7... so that's the water to test. A separation would impress upon him that you're serious in a way that therapy, counselling and so on clearly don't. You can judge how the DCs relate to him when he's not there all the time as that seems to be a barrier. On the whole I'm not a fan of bullies that pick on little kids and resort to crying when they're caught out.....

:( I'm glad to see you're taking serious action to protect your son. Your h is an arse (that's the psychological definition of his behaviour), he will only pick on, and bully, your ds because you and your dd won't take it

What kind of man does that?

Gosh, how sad. We have a bit of a similar dynamic, but not exactly the same, and not so extreme.

Did things improve after the last lot of counselling? If you feel that they did improve to a state where family life was good, is counselling something that should be ongoing and 'maintenance', rather than being seen as once off and 'box ticked'?

PP suggestion of trial separation certainly something to consider for all the reasons given.

It doesn't seem to me to be something that you (three) should have to put up with. Poor DS and poor all of you. Good luck, and hope other posters have better thoughts on this than I have.

you need to protect your son from growing up feeling unloved and you need to prevent him losing his self confidence...
try living apart.
then ds gets at least a few days a week free of potential harm. so you lessen the harm his dad does.

doesn't matter the why of your h behaviour - you need to shock him into action and if he cannot learn to behave differently then consider options

You can't manage your husband's behaviour! You have laid it on the line and he doesn't get it - so what now?

A trial separation would make sense, but that could also negatively impact the DC's. It's almost like the DC's are damned if we leave or damned if we don't. It's such a rut. I'm worried leaving will open up another can of worms and another host of problems - is it out of the frying pan into the fire? I've seen what two of my friends have been through and separation is no easy way out. I told myself then it has to be REALLY bad to break up the family. Maybe a stressed and grumpy DH isn't good enough reason, or maybe I'm so used to his behaviour I can't really see how dysfunctional it is.

Why would it negatively impact the DCs? What is it exactly that you are worried would happen to them?

Ds telling you what he told you means that it is really bad.

LordFocus,

re your comment:-
"If it were me i'd have gone, but the kids do love him and he tries to be a good dad most of the time"

Honestly I would look into separation and asap.

Women as well often write the "good dad" comment when they themselves can think of NOTHING else positive to write about their man.

What do YOU get out of this relationship now?. What needs of yours does he meet?. Did you grow up within a similar environment yourself?.

What do you want to teach your children about relationships, surely not this piss poor model of one. Your DD is already learning to be sensitive and super responsible; your son is learning from his dad that his dad does not give a fig about him.

I would argue that the children do not so much love him but are afraid of him and do not want to upset you. You all read like you're all tiptoeing around this man/living in fear of him and his behaviours. Tears as well can be manipulative; he does that because in the past at least it has worked.

You cannot assume AS at all and in particular if he has not been assessed; also I note you have been to Relate previously regarding your relationship. My guess is that he is actually not on the ASD spectrum whatsoever. How does he behave with people in the outside world, how does he treat shop assistants and the like?. I actually think you've become conditioned and somewhat desensitised to him.

If you would have gone if it was just you, then you should not stay just for the "sake of the children". They will not thank you for staying with someone like your H and could well think poorly of you as adults for doing so if you did stay with him. They could well ask of you why you put him before them. Its not their fault that their dad has chosen to indulge in a private war with his family; my guess as well that he does not act anything near like this to outsiders.

I would talk to Womens Aid and discuss your options going forward with them.

So destroying your sons self esteem isn't damaging enough. Because that is the risk.

:(

Your poor son. Those comments can have a very lasting impact on the children. And he may well end up resent you for not sticking up for him.

A trial separation will allow you to evaluate things without his presence and see how adversely affected your DS is or not.
I do think that he will be more affected by having a bully as a father.

"Why would it negatively impact the DCs? What is it exactly that you are worried would happen to them?"

I would ask the self same questions as Cogito has.

Better to be alone than to be badly accompanied; again your children will not thank you for staying with your H if you did choose to do so.

You have a choice re him; your children do not.

His actions are already breaking up your family unit; its he who is doing this by his actions. He has and is making conscious choices throughout.

You need to drop the Asperger's thing, it is a red herring. Even if he does have an autistic spectrum disorder it is no excuse for his behaviour - and the one thing wouldn't necessarily lead to another. My own DS has Asperger's and I have my question marks round DP but both of them are the gentlest people who ever wore shoe leather.

Asperger's doesn't equal bully. And that's what your husband is - a grumpy bully. You've pushed back, DD has pushed back so now he's targeting the smallest member of the household who won't push back. Nice.

staying with status quo will negatively impact - trial separation could have positive impact.
full separation living apart could be positive. he might work harder if he seeing kids less.

do your children know any separated families?

have you tried dropping into conversation?
douse some family therapy type techniques, sit with ds, get him to draw family, see how/where he draws dad, mum, himself.
have him and dd draw self portraits and family portrait.

ask them to draw the family in the future.

ask ds what he would like to be when he grows up, where would he like to live? who does he say he would like to live with?

see how ds sees himself now and in the future and where mum and dad fit in to this future...that will give you some clues...provide the opportunity for self expression and talking without asking direct questions.
he has told you already he likes ben's dad.

have a chat about ben and his dad, generally.

he doesn't sound like a good dad to me.

A good dad doesn't act like that towards his children. Ever.

"This is because he has no empathy with anyone, has no 'soul', he cannot see anything from anyone's point of view but his own, lives in his own (often grumpy or silent) little world, has no communication, gets frustrated dealing with 'emotional' things or feelings. In short it's rather like living with a cardboard cut out sometimes - no sparkle".

BTW I could write the same about my FIL - and he is a narcissist in terms of personality.

Why on earth did you ever marry this man??
From your postI can't see any positives in having him around. Certainly not for your children. Ot you for that matter. It must be really uncomfortable.
I just cant understand why you would stay with a man who bullies your small defenseless child. How weird to ask your child what kind of mood Dad was in when they went out. He doesn't need you to look after him, He is a grown man.
One of ds's friends did something really mean to ds at our house yesterday, and I came down on him like a ton of bricks, told his mum, scorched earth shock and awe etc.
After, ds said to me "You are the most powerful mum in the world" which I hope is a good thing...! My point is, no-one messes with my kid. It's my job to protect him as much as I can.
And it's your job to protect your kids.

And, please. I have 2 brother with Aspergers. Both utterly gentle and kind.

I feel very sad for your little boy. He sounds very hurt.

I think you need to leave, if nothing else for a period of time, to demonstrate to both your husband and your son that you don't support the way your husband behaves.

I wonder if it's worth giving him one last chance to have a trial separation, he moves out and counselling before calling it a day? If he isn't there temporarily, it'll give you a chance to see whether you all miss any of his good points or you are just relieved. Tbh though, you have a right to a proper supportive relationship as well, you shouldn't stick it out for the dc.

They've already been to Relate and if he is at heart emotionally abusive, anger management will do nothing to resolve anything in the long term. Such men can and do put on an act of being lovely but the mask slips soon enough because its not an image they can maintain long term.

He's not a good Dad.

He holds down a job, his boss likes him, he's clearly able to stop him self making nasty comments there.

You say he shows no emotion but also that when he gets pulled on his behaviour he weeps, so when it's about him he shows emotion. .

He's a nasty bully who's picking on the most vulnerable member of the family.

Please get your son away from him.

You don't sound like you love him in the slightest.

You're doing yourself and your kids a disservice staying as things are right now.

I'm sorry, I'd be out of there.

The thing is, if you do split, your DH will have contact with your son, without you there, and any criticism of him will fall on entirely deaf ears or more likely turned against you as proof you are turning the children against him. My ex is EA towards my eldest in particular and there is nothing I can do about it. Even locking him outside in his pants - I called SS and they didn't want to know. If I stop contact he will drag me through the court system and get contact reinstated.

If the counselling worked for a bit but has gone back to the start - and CBT is well known for not being long lasting - then my first step would be to return to counselling and stick with it until the changes are properly established.

"What do YOU get out of this relationship now?."

The answer to this question does not encompass everything you need to know about a relationship. The emphasis on the "now" is not necessarily correct. you would never say in such an aggressive way "What are you getting out of this pension plan now?" as if the answer "well nothing actually" would lead automatically to "Cancel it!"

This is a very sad story and it may well be that the op should ltb. But I am tired of seeing this question trotted out as if a righteous snap of justice.