'Why can't I have a gentle dad like Ben has?'

[LordFocus]

This is what my son said to me earlier today, He's 6, (have name changed Ben obviously!).

I'd love some opinions/advice from you guys please about the situation our family finds itself in.

The story goes like this: Our family comprises me and my DH who have DD who's 9 and DS who is 6.We are a fortunate family who work hard but also have what I consider a lot - put it this way, our problems are generally third world problems so nothing out of the ordinary.

The big trouble is my DH is a pain in the arse. He's a fly in the ointment of what should and could be a really lovely home life for us all. I consider me and the DC's to be quite emotionally healthy people. Me and DD in particular are quite reflective and are always willing to admit when we are wrong etc. DS is sweet, quirky and sensitive.

I have had problems with DH in past. There was a time when I suspected him as an emotional abuser. But I've since researched and read, and thought and thought and (giving him the benefit of the doubt) I have resigned myself to the fact that he could even have aspergers syndrome. This is because he has no empathy with anyone, has no 'soul', he cannot see anything from anyone's point of view but his own, lives in his own (often grumpy or silent) little world, has no communication, gets frustrated dealing with 'emotional' things or feelings. In short it's rather like living with a cardboard cut out sometimes - no sparkle.

At the moment he is stressed at work. I know his work and job well and whereas I can see it might be a bit tedious at the moment he gets paid well, he is liked by his boss, he has the ability to do it and there is a lot of potential there for owning his role/making it his own/getting promoted or headhunted. But he doesn't like it and that's that.He won't see it as a challenge or any of the positives just the negatives and is taking it out on us - especially my son.

Once upon a time he would have taken it out on me but has learnt over the years that I won't put up with it and he has changed his behaviour towards me quite a lot. Then he was AWFUL to my mum for years. My DD is cleverer than him too and so he panders to her as she is too smart and he know its. That leaves my sweet, innocent, defenseless son who he just grumbles at, snaps at, moans at.

DH, for instance, gets visibly frustrated over small things to do with my son. Yesterday he went on a trip to the shops and took the kids while I was cooking tea. This morning I asked DD what he was like during the trip - grumpy or happy? She said he was grumpy. Then, as it transpires she tells me that DH had gone as far as calling DS a 'disgusting little boy' because he dropped a small piece of biscuit in his new car. I was furious to hear this. At this point - while DD was describing the trip - DS pipes up with the question 'why don't I have a dad like Ben's - who is (thinks about it for a moment)..gentle?'

I came straight home from school run and rang up DH telling him I'd had enough of his bullying ways, that people are out there working in sewers and for minimum wage and that he ought to see how lucky he is and stop taking out his mood on us. I told him if he doesn't stop bullying his poor, sweet son I'll take serious action.

DH listens and starts to weep - a thing he always does - and tries to say it was a joke about the disgusting comment. I told him I don't believe him.

Trouble is I don't want to be melodramatic, but I also need to think if I should be with him flogging away at the circle of his behaviour. I sometimes hate my DH, but on good days I can see that he's just a ignorant and often arrogant man that is in need of some support and understanding/a lot of guidance, and that like it or not I've married him and he is the DC's father so get on with it and get over it. It's such a borderline case, but I'm worried I'm desensitised to my situation after so long and that I'm not capable of making a rational decision about our future of happiness or about the effect his behaviour could be having on us.

BTW we have tried Relate a few years back because of his emotional abuse and DH went to counselling and the therepist prescribed anger management techniques. It worked for a bit.. but then back to the start we go again. So what do you think from this recount of the problem? Should I stick with him or would we be better off without him? If it were me i'd have gone, but the kids do love him and he tries to be a good dad most of the time. Is it worth carrying on and taking the rough with the smooth? Thanks...xx

"Why is this - why does he need to transfer his stress onto someone else instead of find more productive ways of dealing with it? It's what I need to understand I guess".

He could well have learnt all this from his own parents, this is really about power and control. This man wants you all dancing to his own tune.

Re access if he is like this with the children now, I doubt very much he will actually maintain much if any of a relationship with them in the long term and particularly if he meets another woman.

You are on the verge of leaving him all the time precisely because of his ongoing behaviours towards you. You went to Relate and he did AM because of the parlous state of the relationship. That parlous state still really exists. You're not responsible for his behaviours ultimately although you perhaps think you are.

The emotional effects of all this on your children is incalculable and may not become fully apparent in them until they themselves reach adulthood.

One day your children will leave home; what then for you if you are still together then?. Where do you see yourself in a year's time; still with this man?.

If he understands the effect he is having, that he has tried his best, perhaps he will accept that he can't change and that separation will be best. He still has access, but you will all have peace.

"DH doesn't use threatening behaviour towards DS and doesn't intentionally set out to humiliate or bully him" If it is not intentional then why are his stresses never taken out on his boss? His mates? You?

Please don't think his behaviour towards your son is accidental. If he couldn't control himself he would be bullying everyone and not just the weakest person he can find.

Lordfocus

You were very upset by your husbands treatment of your son when you made this post.

Now, somehow, it's not a thing. It's no problem at all. Being a separated family would be worse. You have renormalised your husbands's behaviour so that action isn't necessary.

I'm not seeing how being a separated family would be worse than a child who wishes his dad was someone else.

"He has got a strange family - His DM and DF divorced late after sons grew up. All great on the outside - problems underneath that no one really understands. Brothers all engage in abuse with partners, my DH is best out of siblings can you believe and at least tries to own up to having problems (will go see about it for instance)".

Well there you have it in a nutshell; your man will require a great deal of therapy, perhaps years of it. He is damaged by his past experiences and is likely acting out what he saw previously in his own childhood. He after all learnt about relationships first and foremost from them.

He does not act like this though to others in the outside world does he?.

His children are being primarily affected now by his actions, particularly his son whilst you in his (son's) eyes seemingly do nothing from his point of view to prevent it. You have also been affected and you are still really walking on eggshells.

People can change (and I take my hat off to nomoretether because she really did have some dysfunctional role models when gowing up) but I cannot see any indication of your DH wanting to change currently. He at heart thinks he has done nothing wrong, has he actually sat down and apologised to his son?. I doubt he has done anything of the sort.

Previous sessions at Relate and AM did not work out really either; unless he properly wants to address this for his own self there will be no real change in circumstances within your home.

Regarding your views on seperated families "not being that happy" and the "shuttling"....erm no, we do it, works well for us, we make better parents, and i am a better mother, apart than we were together. Christ it's EASIER!! I simply cannot grasp how you can start this thread so eloquently and as it has proceeded, you've begun to minimise and excuse.....step back, right back, and see this for what it is. Seems to me you are the only one here capable to effect change for your family, yet you seem unwilling to do so, please think hard xx

To add to the good points other have made.

OP, I think your DD is affected, too.

I WAS that "golden child" who didn't get picked on "as much" as my siblings because I was smart and clever and witty, and so he "respected" me for that.

what that did was

1. Give me a warped view of relationships. I left home early, and ending up picking relationships with internally angry soul-destroying men and thinking "oh I can be all witty and charming and work round it".

It's only after copious amounts of soul-searching that I've realised that NORMAL men actually respect everyone -dull and shy and quiet as well as sparky and extroverted. They don't need someone to charm them or "manage" them or debate with them to keep them from turning.

1. Ruined my sibling relationships/and my attitude to friendships? Always feeling I had to be attention seeking, feeling guilty for being "the favourite" whilst my father lashed out at the others.

So don't think your DD is happy and "fine" just because she isn't the one being targeted.

PS I shudder when I read that line about your husband "pandering" to his daughter. That's exactly like my angry father, it was like dealing with an angry child who could be manipulated - "this child LIKES me more, so I'll favour them ".

But he's their father, not a friend, he should be leading with the "sparkle" not demanding it from/sucking it out of his daughter, and resenting his son for not giving it to him?

It gave me a very, very warped view of how to deal with men - not seeing them as peers in a relationship of respect, but as something to be toyed with.

The child swapping, sleepovers at dad's house etc seems really disrupting and I cannot think that that is a better arrangement than taking a forgiving approach to his moods.

You seriously don't know what you're talking about. I'm sorry, OP, but if you think it is better for your ds to be spoken to in that way than to have a safe haven where he is loved and treated with kindness because of a few bloody sleepovers you are kidding yourself.

Honestly?

I grew up in a house like yours.

You keep being weak like this and you are fucking up your kids.

At least stop kidding yourself op.

OP, if you are a regular, you will have known that most of the advice you would get on here would be to leave.

And also, if you do leave, your DS will stay with his dad at weekends. The relationship between them will continue.

To add, I'm NC with my mother and really resent the family dynamics she created and perpetuated.

I hate that she just saw me as a "little adult" who could "manage" my fathers moods. I have no happy childhood memories of just "being", seriously, you're saying your daughter has to constantly "win respect" with her "smarts", rather than just being and enjoying being a child?

"why does he need to transfer his stress onto someone else instead of find more productive ways of dealing with it? It's what I need to understand I guess."

no that is for him to understand in therapy if he wants to change.
you understanding why he does it wont change him. only he can change.

talk to your little boy.
sit and play and draw with him and get more into how he feels.

then consider how the situation can be improved - you could confront DH with the information but if he weeps and cries and says it was a joke then nothing will change.

yes ds would have to spend time with him but he would have a safe haven to go to.

a safe haven to return to I mean.

OP does he always need a whipping boy? It sounds to me that he shifts the focus of his disgust about from one person to then next, do you think that's a pattern?

This means that he is likely to appear to have changed when actually nothing has.

In the end you are standing by him and condoning this while you stay with him.

In my post earlier I said that he probably knows he can't change and it may be a good idea to see this as a lost cause. Be completely honest with him and tell him he isn't the one and will never be. That's the truth isn't it?

Why is this - why does he need to transfer his stress onto someone else instead of find more productive ways of dealing with it? It's what I need to understand I guess

It will be something to do with his childhood, how things were handled, how he was treated. Which is sad and you could make allowances for his behavior.

But, sadly, the bottom line is that if you let DH treat the DCs badly they in turn will be messed up individuals inflicting this on their DCs. You need to stop the cycle and don't pretend it doesn't matter.

If your still H continues to abuse your son emotionally, he may end up having supervised access only or for it to be removed.
In any case, eventually your son could refuse to go to his dad.

If he continues in the home, your son will never be free from him.

As a child, I was in the position of your son

Scapegoated. My sibling was the golden child, she was also damaged by that. For a while our sibling relationship was under strain.

These days, I hate my father. I tolerate my mother, but despise her. My sibling and I have come to an understanding after many years and we unite against our equally toxic parents.

OP, that's you and your husband, that is. But you love him, right ? My mother loves my father and now they are both in their 70's they only have each other. He emotionally abuses her like he has done all their time together. This is what is waiting for you, down the line.

Still feel you should keep your family "unit" together at all costs ?

I remember asking my mum why she didn't marry her ex boyfriend when I was a child. It was out of desperation and wishing I didn't have to bear my father on a daily basis. I wax wishing my father was her ex because I was so unhappy .
I think your son asking you this is a warning sign of the sadness and desperation he feels. He's showing you his internal world.
Poor little boy.
LTB.

Your poor little DS. This is horrible.

Sure, give him another chance if you want to - but put a time limit on it.
I have to say though:
Why did you feel it necessary to ask if he had been grumpy or happy? It sounds like you worry a lot about what kind of mood he's in.
Most of all though, I felt so sorry for your little boy when I read your op.

Leave (or get him to) 3 years out of a relationship where my children were bullied and emotionally abused by their father they are all so much better. Yes we have just been to court and he has (finally) secured overnight access but the children are older and wiser and know they have a safe and loving home to return to and a mother who is uncompromising in her love and protection of them as far as my powers allow.

Whilst you are with him you have to parent with him at least a bit and you cannot be fully supportive of your children whilst you are committed to supporting the man.

If he want s to change there is help out there, he can make those changes but you cannot force them. He will never do it whilst you are with him providing the excuses and the "soft landing" so he never fully experiences the impact and consequence of his behaviour.

Separate for your own sake and the children's....don't excuse him for another year, and another...don;t be scared you can do it alone, and your children will thrive.

I stayed 2 years longer then I should have and ended up with a child seriously self harming before I understood what was going on. Don't be me and "work at" your marriage to the detriment of the rest of your family and yourself....it is a long road back from there.

Yep PP sounds more like a psychopath/sociopath

I think the fact that OP's son is asking why he can't have a Dad who is more like someone else's - gentle, normal - should say it all. No child would say such a thing after just one outburst from a much-loved father, this can only be part of a pattern. Children are loyal to a fault, for a child to say something like this, that child must be feeling truly awful inside.

OP, you owe it to your son to protect him. No excuses.