'Why can't I have a gentle dad like Ben has?'

[LordFocus]

This is what my son said to me earlier today, He's 6, (have name changed Ben obviously!).

I'd love some opinions/advice from you guys please about the situation our family finds itself in.

The story goes like this: Our family comprises me and my DH who have DD who's 9 and DS who is 6.We are a fortunate family who work hard but also have what I consider a lot - put it this way, our problems are generally third world problems so nothing out of the ordinary.

The big trouble is my DH is a pain in the arse. He's a fly in the ointment of what should and could be a really lovely home life for us all. I consider me and the DC's to be quite emotionally healthy people. Me and DD in particular are quite reflective and are always willing to admit when we are wrong etc. DS is sweet, quirky and sensitive.

I have had problems with DH in past. There was a time when I suspected him as an emotional abuser. But I've since researched and read, and thought and thought and (giving him the benefit of the doubt) I have resigned myself to the fact that he could even have aspergers syndrome. This is because he has no empathy with anyone, has no 'soul', he cannot see anything from anyone's point of view but his own, lives in his own (often grumpy or silent) little world, has no communication, gets frustrated dealing with 'emotional' things or feelings. In short it's rather like living with a cardboard cut out sometimes - no sparkle.

At the moment he is stressed at work. I know his work and job well and whereas I can see it might be a bit tedious at the moment he gets paid well, he is liked by his boss, he has the ability to do it and there is a lot of potential there for owning his role/making it his own/getting promoted or headhunted. But he doesn't like it and that's that.He won't see it as a challenge or any of the positives just the negatives and is taking it out on us - especially my son.

Once upon a time he would have taken it out on me but has learnt over the years that I won't put up with it and he has changed his behaviour towards me quite a lot. Then he was AWFUL to my mum for years. My DD is cleverer than him too and so he panders to her as she is too smart and he know its. That leaves my sweet, innocent, defenseless son who he just grumbles at, snaps at, moans at.

DH, for instance, gets visibly frustrated over small things to do with my son. Yesterday he went on a trip to the shops and took the kids while I was cooking tea. This morning I asked DD what he was like during the trip - grumpy or happy? She said he was grumpy. Then, as it transpires she tells me that DH had gone as far as calling DS a 'disgusting little boy' because he dropped a small piece of biscuit in his new car. I was furious to hear this. At this point - while DD was describing the trip - DS pipes up with the question 'why don't I have a dad like Ben's - who is (thinks about it for a moment)..gentle?'

I came straight home from school run and rang up DH telling him I'd had enough of his bullying ways, that people are out there working in sewers and for minimum wage and that he ought to see how lucky he is and stop taking out his mood on us. I told him if he doesn't stop bullying his poor, sweet son I'll take serious action.

DH listens and starts to weep - a thing he always does - and tries to say it was a joke about the disgusting comment. I told him I don't believe him.

Trouble is I don't want to be melodramatic, but I also need to think if I should be with him flogging away at the circle of his behaviour. I sometimes hate my DH, but on good days I can see that he's just a ignorant and often arrogant man that is in need of some support and understanding/a lot of guidance, and that like it or not I've married him and he is the DC's father so get on with it and get over it. It's such a borderline case, but I'm worried I'm desensitised to my situation after so long and that I'm not capable of making a rational decision about our future of happiness or about the effect his behaviour could be having on us.

BTW we have tried Relate a few years back because of his emotional abuse and DH went to counselling and the therepist prescribed anger management techniques. It worked for a bit.. but then back to the start we go again. So what do you think from this recount of the problem? Should I stick with him or would we be better off without him? If it were me i'd have gone, but the kids do love him and he tries to be a good dad most of the time. Is it worth carrying on and taking the rough with the smooth? Thanks...xx

What was your dh's upbringing like? Lacking or loving? I'm convinced my dh has deeply rooted psychological problems caused by his alcoholic, aggressive father and narcissistic bitch of a mother. Would be interesting to know if your dh also comes from a dysfunctional background.

What do YOU get out of this relationship now?."

It is a pertinent question worth asking in relationships because it makes people think. What that is asking the OP is what needs of hers are being met, if any, by her DH.

Leave him. Seriously.

My brother has a really bad explosive temper and the effect on my nephew has been horrendous.

My nephew is the eldest and has 2 sisters. The sisters can do no wrong, ever, my nephew however is the one who gets it in the neck.

My brother is a bastard to him, full on screaming in my nephews face, always blaming him for everything. My dad had to drag my brother away from my nephew several times when my brother was in his face, screaming at the top of his voice over something very trivial, my nephew was about 8 or 9 at the time. His level of disinterest in my nephew (and infact all the kids) is shocking.

This all happened years ago. My nephew only got respite when my SIL left him and he went to live with her.

My nephew is now 21 and is a ghost, he is invisible. Cannot hold down a job, has no friends or people skills, he is so quiet he could be in room with you and you would forget he was there. He is very unhappy and I am sure he is on some sort of medication but would never admit this.

Please leave before he grinds your poor son down and destroys him.

From what you say, I'm picking up that you really dislike this man. I feel a bit sorry for him having to live with that. is the phone call you put in your op an indication of the way you usually speak to him?

As you have such a low opinion of him it probably would be kinder all round to split up.

I've not commented on his alleged abusiveness as I'm not really picking that up from the original post.

OP, how would you respond if DS had asked for a more gentle/kinder/happier mummy? I bet you'd be horrified and be bending over backwards to make it up to your wee boy. I also bet you'd be working your bottom off to change your behaviour towards DS.
Is your DH doing any of this? From what you've written it sounds as though he's not particularly sorry that he's done it, more sorry that he's been caught out - crying, making it out to be a joke, etc.

Can I ask you to think about something? Earlier on you said that if it was just you you would leave your husband. What does your DH bring to your children's lives that means that they should put up with something you don't want to put up with yourself? I don't want to sound as though I'm attacking you - I've been swithering about leaving a relationship and was loathe to because we had a child. The answer to this question helped my decision making a lot.

"From what you say, I'm picking up that you really dislike this man."

Do you think a man who used to bully the OP and now bullies little kids is likeable?

Your DS told you he wishes his DF was different; if your DH can't change permanently then clearly it would be best if you separate.

cogito, unless I'm missing something, the only incidence of unpleasantness we have an example of is him saying "disgusting little boy". Parenting fail but not the end of the world if it's a one off.

what in saying is that the post tells me a lot about how the op feels about her husband but doesn't give me any reason to see his behaviour is the problem in the relationship.

does one annoyed comment make someone a bully?

It'd be helpful if the op was a bit more specific about his behaviour because at the moment, the problem appears to be the op's massive dislike of him.

I would think it would be bad for the DS to think it was what he told you about his DF's behavior that made you leave his DF, even if it was!

The point about him having access on his own with the DCs if you split needs to be kept in mind.

Being so nasty as well as bursting into tears seems odd behavior. I think I might try speaking to my GP for an opinion.

Knowing why DH acts the way he does (?? difficult childhood himself) would perhaps, if explained to the DCs, soften the effect of his behavior.

FourForks,

Did you see this excerpt in the initial post of OPs;-

"BTW we have tried Relate a few years back because of his emotional abuse and DH went to counselling and the therepist prescribed anger management techniques. It worked for a bit.. but then back to the start we go again"

Attilla, yes, read that. I'm left wondering what behaviour the op means as emotional abuse in her specific case, as the only example she cited wasn't very abusive. imo her phone call was more abusive. You can bet the kids are picking up on mum's opinion of dad, especially when asked questions like "what mood was he in?"

I'm not sure what your friends went through but I have found leaving much, much easier than I expected. Yes, there were and still are times when it's stressful or when I feel like I am forever going to be stuck in a loop of needing to save money for bills vs needing things for the house that we don't have, plus ex is being a tit over contact with the children.

But overall I am happier. The children are happier. Even the fecking dogs are happier.

Dd1, who was bullied by ex a lot is the one who I've seen the most change in. She's gone from being a quiet, glued to a screen in her room alone, always looking miserable little girl to a happy, sociable, co-operative child, who sits in the family room and invites friends I didn't even know she had around for tea.

I would say I'd be lying if I said it's been a walk in the park, but honestly I am not. It was. Making the choice to leave was scary. Doing it less so. Once I had my stuff in and we were moved it was fucking fantastic, even with all the bills and lack of actual furniture and things, it's been fucking great. No-one screams at anyone, spilling a drink doesn't cause world war 3. We sit together at meal times and talk.

Don't allow your son to be bullied for fear of what could be. Deal with what is. You've given H his chances. He's had counseling, he's had anger management. He's gotten worse. Leave for the sake of your son.

thanks all for your comments. I know he does sound awful. I wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him - I used to be very wary but not any more as he doesn't really shout or loose his temper just grumps and nags.

I understand what Nomoretether says separation DS won't be 'cured' from his DH's behaviour even if we do separate. He has his 'rights' and will always have access. I do know separated families and they do not look happy if I'm honest. The child swapping, sleepovers at dad's house etc seems really disrupting and I cannot think that that is a better arrangement than taking a forgiving approach to his moods. Would the children thank me for getting them out of it? I'm not sure they would. My friend is in the situation whereby her EXDH is putting on such a good show in front of everyone - including the kids - that they've all forgotten the arguments and are almost at the point where they want to know why mum chucked poor daddy out. To me, I think children rarely want parents to separate - they just want them to find a way of getting along so they can stay as a family, whatever it takes.

I think I will enforce him to undertake some continuous counselling that some of you suggested. It worked for a while last time and could be the answer.

lordfocus, what form is his bullying of your son taking?

I'm more interested in what kind of behaviour led you to be 'very wary' and prompted Relate and anger management sessions. I'm doubting it was a one-off as one contributor seems determined to suggest.

I think the suggestion of looking at his upbringing is also very helpful. I was brought up by a narcissistic mother and an on/off dad - I had no hope of succeeding in being a reasonable partner because I had never seen it modelled. I went to therapy for something totally unrelated and have changed hugely. Looking back, some of the stuff I did would fall under the umbrella of emotional abuse - I thought that was what normal angry looked like. It mortifies me to say that even now but there is a myth that a leopard can't change it's spots. I'm proof that it can. He needs to want to change though.

Why do you have to be the Caretaker of this whole relationship? What is your husband doing towards changing?
You just sound like you are making excuses. The children may not thank you for "getting them out". They probably don't thank you for most of what you do as a mother. So what? Doesn't mean you shouldn't do what's right.

yep, think youve gone down a dead end with the AS armchair diagnosis. i can see how you might, because the alternative would be to accept that he is an abusive bully.

Fourfourks - you raise some very valid points. My DM said similar actually - that it must be awful for DH to live with thinking I'm on the verge of leaving him all the time. Since she said that I have tried to be a bit more 'committed' hence we have as a couple been getting along quite well in recent history. In fact until today I had made the decision to stay and make the most of what I have, not to question our suitability etc and it made me much happier with us/my life etc. But the problem has now just shifted onto the little one. The trouble is I can see DH is visibly frustrated when he's dealing with him and admits that DS drives him crazy, which is just ridiculous because he is so well behaved albeit a bit clumsy and slow to react sometimes.

Just to put the record straight, DH doesn't use threatening behaviour towards DS and doesn't intentionally set out to humiliate or bully him I don't believe. He just gets wound up by him for no reason. Why is this - why does he need to transfer his stress onto someone else instead of find more productive ways of dealing with it? It's what I need to understand I guess.

The thing that leapt out at me was that your son is 6 years old-i am a stranger on the Internet but that made me well up.
my ds and fil have as and they are sweet gentle people-yes they may find it hard to see another person's pov, but that doesn't mean they are nasty to them!
I hope you are doing serious self esteem building work with your son and explicitly telling him daddy is wrong to do that.
I think you are mad to stay but I am not sure you will. Most separated parents I know have arrangements where the primary caregiver has them more of the week. How could it not be better that he lives with someone who belittles him for less of the time?

"I wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him - I used to be very wary but not any more as he doesn't really shout or loose his temper just grumps and nags"

Should family life be consistently like that; this seems to have gone on for years. Grumps and nags sounds wearing to even read let alone be a part of. And you're all being forced by him into being a part of that dysfunctional dynamic.

I think your son and to some extent your DD are both afraid of him and are confused at the very least. You seem to have become conditioned to his behaviour as well as ground down by it all.

What are your DHs parents like?.

Cogito - I'm not saying it was a one off, how could I possibly know, despite it being a long post, there is not enough information in the original post to be able to say one way or the other.

Lordfocus, from your original post, you say that your husband "grumbles at, snaps at, moans at" your son and once called him a 'disgusting little boy'. How can we make a judgement on your husband's behaviour based on the information you've given?

However, I do call into question your own behaviour:

You ask your daughter about your husband's mood, which puts her in a position of 2 against 1, all in earshot of your son, awkward.

You make a fairly threatening phone call to your husband, was he at work? was this within earshot of the children too?

You've made a string of vague unpleasant criticisms against your husband:

my DH is a pain in the arse.
He's a fly in the ointment
I suspected him as an emotional abuser.
he could even have aspergers syndrome.
he has no empathy with anyone,
has no 'soul',
he cannot see anything from anyone's point of view but his own,
lives in his own (often grumpy or silent) little world,
has no communication,
gets frustrated dealing with 'emotional' things or feelings.
like living with a cardboard cut out
no sparkle.
I sometimes hate my DH
a ignorant and often arrogant man that is in need of some support
like it or not I've married him and he is the DC's father so get on with it and get over it

Unless you can be more specific about his behaviour, it looks to me like you're thoroughly sick of him & looking for a reason to go. There's nothing wrong with that. It's entirely up to you. Just seems misleading to dress it up as abuse from the husband.

Leave while they are still young and you can find someone else. Even if it's no his fault, you are entitled to have a happy family life.

My mum stayed with my bully of father. I think that is why I put up with it so long. It was my normal. I was not happier for it and whilst I adore her I can never quite forgive her for choosing him over me. I know it was not that simple for her, but in my mind it was. He was vile to me. I begged her to leave as I got older. She didn't. She chose him.

Staying together is not always the right thing for the children. Not all children are unhappy when their parents split. It depends on how well you handle. Of course you wouldn't tell DS you were leaving for him. A simple mummy and daddy don't love each other anymore, but we both still love you etc. will do.

I stayed in the same area. That's made it much easier for the kids. They still call on their friends. They still play in the same park, go to the same school. They just come home to a peaceful home and a caring parent at the end of the day. That's the only difference.

They still see him. They don't like it. They'd rather be here, but I have to work, so they have no choice. They are still happier overall.

Think about what "normal" your husband is showing your son. Would you be happy if he treat your future grandchildren the way he is being treat? Or your future SIL the way you were treat?

He has got a strange family - His DM and DF divorced late after sons grew up. All great on the outside - problems underneath that no one really understands. Brothers all engage in abuse with partners, my DH is best out of siblings can you believe and at least tries to own up to having problems (will go see about it for instance). That's the thing, he does try not to get all wound up and frustrated by 'us'! I can see him trying, but he doesn't succeed all the time. It's like his heart is in the right place but cannot quite deliver. Despite knowing family for long time and having lengthy discussions with DH about the roots of the problems we cannot get to the bottom of it or pinpoint what has gone wrong where.