"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's February 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Buenos días everyone! How's everyone this morning? I've got a horrible cold and chesty cough and feel like I want to go and lie down in the dark somewhere, but have loads of work and then classes this afternoon. Still, feel a bit better emotionally as I haven't heard from DM about her latest drama this morning, so the ragey feeling is fading.

Meerka how are you doing?

And Milly I would agree with Hissy that you need to hold back and be careful.

I have been trying to do that, but my dad is very convincing with the poor me and had me fooled for many years too. He keeps crying to my brother who then obviously feels really upset too. My brother is completely being played but he can't see that. He generally tries not to say anything to me about it, but he was a bit tipsy at the wedding so it just came out.

I just don't feel that the 'agree to disagree' thing is working and i know my brother thinks i am being ott and a bit unkind to my dad. That in turn makes me feel very uncomfortable in my brother's presence. I feel like a burden/ trouble and find that i avoid certain situations because of it. Eg since going nc I have taken it in turns to stay with my brother/ sister overnight, but i will put off asking my brother/ feel like I'm putting him in an awkward position, so dread asking cos i feel so guilty. He always makes me feel welcome and i always enjoy my time there, but i still feel awful. I also feel hurt/ upset that he just cannot see my point of view re dad (he gets the mum thing), as i always felt closer to him than my sister growing up. These things mean i feel there is a big black mark on our relationship. It feels like the elephant in the room that I just don't want to have to face.

I totally understand and also understand how they can be convincing and also the FOG (and the Guilt part) is sooo powerful. But, would your relationship be better or easier with your DB if you had contact with your DF? Or just the same really but with the added shit of having to deal with your father?
I am lucky in that DBro is totally onboard and there's no other family near. But, then again I still can't manage to lower contact with my DM, struggle with that a lot...but she drives me mental. I'd be better to have much lower contact but find it hard to actually put into practice.

Milly

I am glad to see that the wedding went better than expected but its far, far too soon to be making such a decision re low contact after a period of no contact. You still likely feel a mix of fear, obligation and guilt towards them; what is your thinking behind this thought of adopting low contact?.

What would you want out of low contact and could you actually trust them at all to respect the boundaries that you give them?. Say you decided that you'd only visit once a week, say. Or once a month. But your mother invites you in between times, and puts pressure on you to accept. This is where you have to be strong and calmly assertive. It's not easy, but it'll come with practice and every time you do it, you are reclaiming another little bit of your power and it feels very good.

Narcissistic mothers are also masters of manipulation, and so they may well lay it on thick, trying to make you feel guilty if you don't accept. You need to be strong!

Another way of going Low Contact is to withdraw emotionally. You might physically see her as often, but just not share yourself as much. Keep conversation very light and superficial and safe.

Your brother has his own path to make here and may well never see that he is actually being played by his dad.

Your dad is basically saying in not so many words, "I do not want to rock the boat here so you need to suck it up". He being weak himself will and actively continues to put his own wife before his now adult children's well being. I would go as far to state that their "love" for each other is actually an unhealthy co-dependency.

I think you have done so well to date, your own self preservation needs to be still first and foremost in your mind though.

That's a good point about detaching emotionally, Attila. I do that when I'm with her, but find it just makes me ragey later...which is what I'm hoping the therapist will help me with and also perhaps help me reduce my contact with DM further.

Ha ha good, your DB was on board before YOU were iirc, he'd hinted at you for a while!

I bet he's relieved you see DM for what she is.

Wrt therapy, expect to feel more ragey before you feel calmer, there will be a considerable amount of pent up emotions/hurt/feelings there.

Expect it and know that you're in a safe place, and are entitled to your feelings.

Even irrational feelings are ok, you just have to see that they are irrational and need correcting, but nonetheless they need dealing with.

It's my birthday today and I'm not expecting to hear from my parents, we've been NC for 16 months this time.

In the last week they have sent two postcards to my children, wishing them a happy Easter. It pisses me off so much! What the postcards say to me is a very clear message that they could send a card if they wanted (ie they haven't broken both of their legs and cannot make it to a Post Office) but they choose not to.

I don't want to receive a card from my toxic parents! It just bothers me that they so 'actively' are ignoring me.

Thanks for the replies. Goodtobetter - my relationship with DB would definately be better if i was in more contact with parents, as this is the only issue here. However, things with my dad will never go back to how they were and i am completely ok with that. The last year has been a real eye opener re my dad, i didn't realise how deep in FOG i was myself until going NC with mum.

Attilla - my reasoning behind going low contact is mostly for the sake of my relationship with my brother, and to save him some of the upset he clearly feels. Also, the wedding made me think that perhaps i am strong enough to protect my boundaries more with my parents and that by going NC i have been able to emotionally detach. I genuinely have no interest in how my parents feel (sounds horrid, i know), but i feel indifferent to them, i have let go of the anger/ hurt and have grieved for the parents that i wished they were (well mostly, anyway).

My main concern would be maintaining boundaries, if i did resume low contact. I am not willing to go back to the way things were under any circumstances, even for my brother. I know that anything less will not be good enough for mum or dad. Eg i am happy to send the odd card or occasionally meet up/ call. However, there is no way i would stay with them. Part of me thinks that my dad will still be crying if i phone him, cos i refuse to phone more often/ go round to their house etc, so not sure whether it will actually be successful. I know i will have to be constantly on guard as they want more and more from me, but part of me thinks if it doesn't work, at least maybe my brother will see I have tried and i can always cut all contact again if needbe.

I completely agree about my dad. It is so messed up, and i have absolutely no respect/ love for him anymore. He just wants everything to go back to normal so it is easier for him. I think that makes him a crap father and utterly weak. Yes i know he is miserable with mum and sad about me, but he is an adult and has made his own choices. I wish he would just stop whinging about it and get on with things, but he never will. This is where my brother and I are worlds apart - he just sees a man who is standing by his nutty wife, as it is hard is someone is refusing contact with your loved one. I see a man who turned a blind eye while his wife abused his children, and has refused to see the longlasting damage this caused. And now, his daughter has taken a stand and said 'enough', he still backs his nasty, child-abusing wife, cos it serves his best interests.

In principle, i see no reason why i should feel forced into any contact, but on the other hand, the only thing that has upset me in the last few months is the strain on things with my db, and i feel that this can only deteriorate. I just don't feel that it is worth losing my brother over a matter of principle. If it wasn't for this i would be 100% happy to remain NC - all of this has actually brought me and my sister closer together, but i want my brother in my life always too. Thought all I had to do was get the wedding out of the way, then listening to my brother's drunken ramblings, i realised that i was being very naive!

That's shit, Norksen...working hard to ignore you. I hope you have a lovely birthday with no more PA bullshit from your parents.
Hissy, you're right...DBro was the scapegoat so was well aware she was a loon, whereas in my ivory tower of golden (smothered) child it took me a while longer and I'm still quite stuck in the G of FOG..I do realise that. Actually the O and the G to be fair.
I'm feeling gradually crappier and crappier...think I may well drag myself in this afternoon to work and call in sick tomorrow. Losing my voice...which is not great when teaching. Could just sleep all day today, so tired.

Milly I totally understand what you are saying but I don't think what you are hoping is possible..they will always want more, complaining about something and your brother won't "see that you've tried", he'll just see it as you "upsetting" them again. It'll be twisted against you again. I know it's hard with your brother, but i don't see a good outcome or an easy life for you in this. Which I'm sorry about...it's shit, isn't it?

Good - deep down, i think you are right, but i don't know what else to do re db. I truly do not understand why he can't see it? He was treated like shit too, possibly even worse, but he just can't see dad any differently. He seems to view him as some sort of martyr for sticking by his mean wife. I really thought we understood each other more and feel very disappointed cos that is obviously not true.

Listening to my brother's wedding speech, and him saying how our parents had shown him love and support, shaping who he was today, teaching right from wrong etc, i thought he actually believes this bullshit! Me and my sister (and our partners) were all looking at each other like wtf!? It is like we had completely different upbringings! I also feel betrayed by him, which i know isn't fair, but when he was little it was me that went to hug him and say i love u, when mum had had a go at him. Where was dad? Stuck infront of the telly, ignoring it all, that's where! I would never make db choose, but i guess i thought, if he DID have to choose, he would choose me.

What IS clear to me, is that i have to address things with my brother, but i honestly don't know what to say to him at all!!! It is just clear that is not working to just ignore the elephant in the room. I think if we do, there is no chance of improving things. But where do i begin! I've been thinking about it constantly for the last week, tonight is the best time to chat and i don't have a clue what to say. (I need to phone for other reasons too tonight, so makes sense to acknowledge what was said at the wedding etc).

Norrsken Happy Birthday! You know that being ignored isn't good enough for them, they have to make sure that you know you are being ignored.

I know that this is shit, but it's PA shit and typical. It just reinforces why you need to stay distant and away from them.

GoodtoBetter Honey and Lemon lovey, with ginger root if you can get it! feel better! xx

Milly, your DB was saying things he knew they wanted to hear and to try to gain their approval somehow. he can't choose you/your sister's series of events, because that would mean his parents are shit, and they didn't 'love' him. This is classic FOG in action.

Milly, meant to say that you can't talk to your DB about this, until he's ready to hear it.

GoodtoBetter may offer some insight here as her DB saw it first. Ultimately nothing he said or alluded to made a difference, she had to see it for herself. Her first thread was a real slog for her as she had a long way to get her from where she was, BadtoWorse, to where she is today!

Norrsken - Happy birthday! It's not easy is it? Ignore their rubbish! I didn't receive a single card from my family on my last birthday, which although i was glad not to get one from parents, still felt really upsetting! Take some time out for yourself to do something lovely, even if it is just a long bath, and a glass of wine!

Hissy - i know you are probably right re my brother's denial. I was just the same about dad, absolutely convinced that he loved me deeply, till he cut me off. I think i clung to that thought desperately, so at least i was 'loved' by one parent. Think that's why i feel so sad for my brother. I understand that he truly feels hurt and as though he is right and i should 'just ignore' my mum's antics.

I know you are also right about my brother not being ready to hear it. But honestly, i have made a point of not talking about things with him re this, simply for that very reason. It does not seem to be working, hence thinking we need to talk. I just don't feel that we can ignore it any more, and it would do more harm than good to ignore what was said at the wedding etc, as it just makes me look a bit cold and heartless.

As I said, i am calling him tonight anyway, so thought i should at least acknowledge what was said. If nothing else, the stress of second guessing everything the last few months is taking it's toll on me. We have bought a new house, and am hoping to move end May/ beg July. I have been putting off telling him for over a month, cos i worry he might be angry. He will prob ask me if I am gonna tell mum and dad, and I am really not sure. i think if I don't let them know my new address/ tel number, then db brother might hit the roof, as will think it horribly mean to my dad if i don't. part of me just thinks send them new address, but then dad would still cry and not sure it would really keep the peace. If it wasn't for my brother, I would love to just move away and feel 'safe' in the knowledge that they can't contact me ever again (changed my mobile number when i went NC). Just think this is all gonna blow up re parents etc, and part of me would just like any impending row over and done with! But i am so upset, just thinking about arguing with my brother...

Hi Milly

I would have to agree with Hissy here re your DB; he is not willing and or able to see the truth of the situation re his parents. It is too painful for him to acknowledge that yes, his parents who bore and raised him, were and remain totally awful to be anywhere near. Denial is a powerful force and I think you will hit a wall of silence if you do try and address this with him.

My DH is still somewhat in the obligation part of FOG with regards to his mother and its taken years to even get to this point we are at now. The scales have fallen from his eyes somewhat but she still would like him dependent on her. His Dad he can take or leave tbh, he has no real relationship with him at all. He has eventually admitted to me after many years that he feels his dad is self absorbed. No poo Sherlock!!. But again I saw this far earlier than he did; when you grow up within this it becomes your "normal".

Noorsken,

Happy Birthday

Did your children see the cards did you keep this away from them?.

Ignore your parents attempts to hoover you back in; this is what this really is. No acknowledgement from you should be made. The sending of unwarranted cards, gifts etc is an attempt to hoover you back in; check out the references to hoovering and toxic parents.

Any such stuff should be binned or shredded without acknowledgement.

You are right about the power of FOG, Atilla. I was just as blind as my brother, re my dad. Would everyone here be inclined to stick to NC even if it meant losing a much loved sibling then? So frustrating! Surely I can't just avoid talking about it with db altogether? Would you refuse to send your new address etc, even if your brother thought you were behaving appallingly and putting him in an awkward position?

You can try to talk about it Milly but he may well shut you down for doing so. He has chosen his own path here and he may well never divert from that. He unlike you now, still feels a need to seek their approval; approval btw they will never give him but he may or may not ever come to such a realisation.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

In all highly dysfunctional families talking openly is not allowed. Everything that happens within the family stays within the family.

Remember this too:-
"The way they behave has everything to do with themselves and nothing to do with me"

Thank you for all the birthday wishes! Attila my DC are 7 and 3, I do not show them the cards. I'm unsure of what the best course of action is, to show them or not? I think not as my parents aren't in my life.

DC do ask for my parents occasionally and ask when we will next visit them (they live abroad). So far I haven't given them an explanation but I think I will have to in the near future. I've put it off as I don't want DD1 to think my parents do not want to see her.

Norrsken,

Think you are right not to show them the cards; I would shred anything that your parents send you. Its a tactic called hoovering and its often used by toxic parents. It is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself.

I would give your eldest a both simple and age appropriate explanation re your mother.

Attilla - the sad thing is, i always thought i had prtty open discussions with DB in the past. I have always been supportive, and in hard times it is me who he turned to, and refused their 'help'. I am older and always made the effort to be loving and open wih my siblings, to somehow compensate for our crap parents. But i feel as though that has been forgotten now! It was always a bit me and DB united, cos my DS was the golden child which alienated her a bit when younger. Yet now, as adults, she can see exactly what they are like, yet DB can't/ won't.

I am going to call him as planned tonight re the other stuff and pehaps mention that I am sorry (again) that this is upsetting him, but suggest he tries to take a step back from the situation, as he is pbviously finding it hard, and we are not going to agree on things. Will se where that gets me, as The more i talk to you guys/ think about it, i think i should stick to my guns in the meantime, and not rush into anything. After all, i am not involving my DB in all this - he is choosing to get involved/ dad is playing him and I don't think that will change unless my parents get me dancing to their tune again (not happening)! If I decide to go LC i need to be sure, not because I feel guilt-tripped/ as though i have to, regardless of how good my brother's intentions seem to be.

Thanks for the heads up, Hissy, Portuguese is sadly not in my repertoire! I can just about manage a bom dia, but it's a bit late in the day for that, possibly...

H) what is Bona Nit then? Where does that come from?

Milly you know your truth, and you know your mind. You're not about to force your brother to change his thoughts, merely consider another angle, if he wants to. I think he might get there. You never know!

It's Catalan... From Catalonia! Is your Portuguese from Portugal or Brazil?