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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 28

999 replies

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 10/01/2014 17:57

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

OP posts:
TinselTownley · 19/01/2014 12:00

Thank you, Mink, for the reassurance. I am finally at a point where I have stopped pushing myself to find the hidden 'magic button' I could press to make it all ok. He used me, at first, to help me justify his behaviour to his ex who - with hindsight - was clearly enduring the same emotional roller I have been made to ride. Even the things he told me about his feelings for her I identical to how he has described feeling about me. For years, I have been aware of the acute division between his words and his actions yet have allowed myself to be hoodwinked, emotionally gaslighted and verbally abused. At Christmas (not for the first time) he told me he was struggling to live with my eldest - who is adorable and has been nothing but loving to his step father. A piece of my love died then and this week the rest has stagnated. I know how he treated his ex over possessions and contact - always aggressive, always inflammatory and always in pursuit of a scene being created that could be blamed on her. I am expecting this now to be done to me but am determined to stay strong. I am so grateful for the support of so many courageous women here. It is empowering and means the world right now.

Fraggletits · 19/01/2014 14:13

Hi everyone, hi Tinsel - well done for standing your ground like this. You are doing absolutely the right thing and of course he's going to make you sound unreasonable, he was a difficult person at the best of times so splitting up with him is going to be difficult - he's not respecting the fact that you've put up a boundary because he's not used to it. Just don't open the door to him, leave his stuff on the doorstep and threaten to call the police on him if he becomes abusive. Easier said than done I know.

Congratulations Tweedle, can't wait to be where you are! I stayed at my parents last night. My mum's being supportive, but my Dad thinks I should give it a second chance, thinks it's all down to work stress (pah!) and that I should stop playing the victim and reading self help books (Lundy!) but mostly I think he's just concerned for me financially. People are conditioned into accepting angry and abusive behaviour as acceptable forms of stress release. There's a holiday ad on at the moment of a family on hols with the dad as an ogre, takes a little while to relax and then becomes 'normal'. FW referred to that ad the other day as if it's normal to be an ogre. Occasionally grumpy yes, a controlling, name calling bastard who spits in his wife's face No!

TinselTownley · 19/01/2014 15:21

Fraglets, thank you. So sorry to hear all you are having to deal with. It is a terrible roller coaster, isn't it? It was ok in the end but I think only because his mum persuaded him to be reasonable. He is overly preoccupied with other people seeing him as the calm, reasonable man he has never been with me. I think that's the core of the issue, actually. That he knows how he wants to be perceived and tries to act that out in his private life. He threw himself headlong into our relationship, wanted our wonderful DS but struggled to keep it up. He doesn't do normal. Things that give me great joy - playing with the boys, walking the dog, watching a film are boring and unsatisfying to him. He can't sustain normal but wants to be seen as just that so lives a lie, blissfully unconcerned about how that impacts on those who have believed his expressions of love and care and - in my case - gone along with plans he's made. Last summer, he got terribly enthusiastic about our relocating to a new area and taking over a business. He talked of nothing else for months. I had reservations but - again - thought it might be the thing to do if it would only make him happy. I was on three months notice at work so resigned. Then, as quickly as he had decided he wanted the move, he lost total enthusiasm. Luckily, my work asked me to stay on longer, which I did and that paid for Christmas. He said he was still keen on a move, just not the business, so I have supported him in finding work in the area. A process instigated by him. On Wednesday, he pulled out of an interview (for a post he had expressed loads of enthusiasm for) telling me out the blue that he would rather kill himself than go. Him telling me he hadn't loved me for years and leaving happened yesterday. I can't say it's ever been easy - largely because of the irrational diametrically opposed ways of thinking and acting (along with frequent verbal abuse) but I have asked him whether the move was right for him often and he has repeatedly said yes. In the wake of his explosions, I have consistently offered him outs, saying if he was unhappy with us we could work together towards an amicable and healthy separation. This has been met with protestations of love and a desire for the future we planned. That's why I'm so confused. I simply can't understand that bit though, as recommended by the wonderful people here, i am hoping the Freedom Course helps me. I have just been to the shops and I have no money at all. Literally none. I feel really aggrieved because, if I still had my job and he paid solely towards our son, I would be able to stay afloat. Yet I resigned as part of a plan we made that he now says he never wanted despite his instigating it!

I am sure your dad's just worried for you. Not a great way to express it, though. I totally agree with the conditioning thing. I have had the old work/stress excuse made frequently. I can be irritable and snappy when stressed but hours and days of subjecting someone you 'love' to verbal abuse? No way. However, from what you have written, is it likely he firmly believes the justification? It's when I have refuted that as a reason for the unstable behaviour that he's blamed my questioning the normality of becoming an ogre in response to stress for his behaviour. In my heart of hearts, I know that's bullshit but I do accept the instability has become a cycle. He goes nuts, I fall apart, I question his feelings and commitment, he goes nuts. As I write and read here, I am slowly realising that it's not crazy to question whether someone loves you when they've frequently said they don't. Plus, he did all this to his ex too.

I wish you all the very best of luck in staying strong. Spitting is vile. You not playing the victim. You have been bullied and treated appallingly. I'm about to borrow 20 pounds from a friend so we can eat tonight. Tomorrow, I'm getting some advice, whether he cooperates or not, I will look after my boys.

TheSparklyPussycat · 19/01/2014 15:21

Tinsel you wrote this and it really hit home to me:

I have accepted this behaviour to a degree and lived with it on the basis that it is not the real him.

Also your description of loving gradually dying Sad The cinder of my love did not actually die until after I began filing for divorce, I swear it was like watching it fade somewhere inside me, fade for 3 days and finally die .

redmapleleaves · 19/01/2014 16:09

Tinsel so sorry to hear what you've been through. Of course you are in the right to stand your ground now.

And when he says 'my parents think' just you make sure you repeat to yourself that if they'd done a bit more boundary-setting with him when he was two, he'd be less of a FW now. I am struggling with feeling everyone around me agrees with the FW. But thats because they are all his family and my family, all of a piece, not real life non-FW normal people. Even if the whole world thinks we are in the wrong, we still have the right to be different.

TheSparklyPussycat · 19/01/2014 16:33

During the period that our negotiations over the financial settlement were going on, we had a number of short spiky conversations about it. During one, my FW suddenly snapped "If my mother was still alive, she'd have something to say to you!" We were in our late 50's and it was some years since DMIL had died. I was Shock Shock Shock - then proceded to have a pretend phone call to DMIL in which I told her politely it was not her business :)

KouignAmann · 19/01/2014 16:37

Too true maple sadly, that our own family are so much a part of the FW picture that often they just want us to shut up and go back into the tidy niche we have clawed our way out of. It may be keeping up appearances, it maybe that DM has put up with decades of abuse from DF and we are challenging her choices by deciding to leave, or it maybe that FW has done such a number on them that they believe he is indeed Prince Charming and we are deranged (FW alluding to "mental health issues" with solemn concern is a very common).

That is where sharing with RL friends or professionals or even posting on here is a good reality check.

The first Christmas after I left FW we had a family gathering at my parents. FW lied and weaselled an invitation from my DM who felt sorry for him. So she proposed he stay over in the spare room and I was to sleep on a lilo in a cupboard in the attic! I almost went along with it until the total outrage of my therapist brought me up short.

The reason we put up with FW behaviour in the first place is our own family dynamics. And we don't have to continue them! Hooray!

TheSparklyPussycat · 19/01/2014 17:02

Further to my last post, I seem to hear a sad angry little boy's voice saying "I'll tell my mother on you!" A strategem that stops working when you're about 6, usually. Poor little FW Sad

TinselTownley · 19/01/2014 17:31

He does tell mummy. and daddy but I'm not sure how much they believe him. He is an only child and his parents are very wrapped up in each other. I feel him and his dad have engaged in a battle of supremacy for his mother's affections since he was about two. When we met, his relationship with them was dire. He blamed them for never supporting him and for an unhappy childhood. I played an enormous part in helping him to see that many of his criticism was groundless and in encouraging him to rebuild his relationship with them. They have always been fine with me and great with both boys. I can't deny that his ex was difficult in respect in respect of contact but he simply cannot grasp that his behaviour both before and after the break up contributed greatly to his now total estrangement from them. He blames her totally. I think his parents know he is flawed but don't want to see how much for fear of losing the better relationship they have with him now. Plus, fundamentally, the two of them and their time together does appear to take precedence over their desire to support him. That said, I don't doubt their avoidance of seeing quite how responsible he is for his situation will skew things. They are very money-orientated too and I can hear his dad advising him to protect his finances - unlike last time - in my head. I doubt any of them will consider me as an individual. I am just another interchangeable, troublesome ex. They'll all want happy settled contact for the boys, which I will wholly support, but without addressing the financial situation I face or his behaviour. Clearly, this is what wound his first wife up and she did use the children as a substantial weapon. Awful for the kids and not at all acceptable but I can see how she reached the end of her tether. She just couldn't face seeing him or being wound up any more. I am a thoroughly different ball game and far less fragile ( possibly because I haven't been with him as long, plus older and wiser) so we'll see what pans out.

Kouign, the family gathering scenario is awful but oddly hilarious. My mum left my father after 15 years of hell and my grandmother, who I adored, used to go and have tea with him. She'd spend hours with him agreeing that my mum was suffering from stress and was slightly unhinged. Mum was amazing. I feel so guilty for putting her through a similar ordeal by proxy and haven't told her yet.

I am already enjoying the lovely peace and calm of being at home just with my boys. We've baked a cake, walked the dog and just chilled. I am emotionally bereft and feel so let down. However, just being normal gives me a hope for a much better future without him. If only I didn't keep thinking I'm a failure. He clearly doesn't!

TheSparklyPussycat · 19/01/2014 17:51

Tinsel mine was the 2nd of 2 boys, I sometimes wondered if his DM was overcompensating for wishing (deep down) he had been a girl. FW always said his parents were over-protective - and I'll give him this: he himself was not over-protective of our own DCs, which helped make them the lovely people they are today.

Am in pensive mood today, in case you can't tell...

TinselTownley · 19/01/2014 20:36

Pensive is a lovely thing. Pensive, not fretful. I've almost forgotten how to think properly at home. Too scary.

The now ex has told me his mother was over protective too. When he was about 12, she stitched hi-vis strips all over his school coat - for protection. He remembers the humiliation. His father, contrastingly, used to remove splinters with pliers and take him to working men's clubs all night. I don't think either helped. He is more like his father with the boys, except without the working men's clubs and the pliers.

What an odd dance life is, eh?

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 20/01/2014 19:56

Certainly an odd dance, Tinsel.

I was particularly glad to get to work this morning, as after an emotionally draining weekend, my head was still swamped with memories of life with FW. I couldn't stop them. I haven't been thinking about it for a while and something this weekend obviously opened floodgates that I didn't even know were there!

Helpful in a way, as I was minimising the past, but a relief to get out of work and realise I'd not thought about it for hours!

Hope the quietness of the thread today means things are on a fairly even keel for most of you. (Vain hope, maybe, but it would be nice!)

OP posts:
MinkBernardLundy · 20/01/2014 20:00

charlotte I think that has to happen as part of the healing and rebuilding but it is hard work. have a restorative Cake and [tea]

Has anyone heard anything of that's lately. I am starting to worry a bit. seemed like things were coming to a head a while ago...and then nothing.

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 20/01/2014 20:08

I've been worrying about her too.

OP posts:
TinselTownley · 20/01/2014 20:12

Poor you, Charlotte. And thank goodness for work.

If nothing else, that you can be pensive and sad demonstrates normal, real emotion. Something the FWs of the world are incapable of.

I feel quite wobbly today but more because I'm realising quite how bad it's been than anything else, I think. Saw two lovely friends for coffee - was able to laugh. Felt cared for. Both children slept in my bed last night.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss his simply being here but then I kick myself.

Still so grateful for this thread.

CharlotteCollinsinherownplace · 20/01/2014 20:47

And you know what? I was incapable of emotion for a while. I was so out of control of the big things in my life and a lot of my needs were so unimportant (I also ignored them) that I was numb.

The first emotion to come back was anger. Seering rage, more like. It took me by surprise. Later there was joy and that was like being a child again.

OP posts:
KouignAmann · 20/01/2014 21:23

I remember the numbness. Tough mum who never cried at films and took the DC on high adrenaline scary holidays jumping off cliffs and white water rafting and canyoning because she was fearless.
Actually I was so shut down and emotionless after years of dealing with my EA XH that it took something life-threatening to get through my shield.
When I started counselling that was what I told the therapist first, that I was emotionless. She brought me back to life, but it really hurt! And yes there was lots and lots of anger and grief to go through to get to the far side.

Now I am soppy, romantic and easily scared. I was terrified by Gravity and can't watch the news. The DC probably think I have been stolen by aliens and replaced by someone else's mum! But I am now whole and the same rather sensitive soul I was at ten before I went away to boarding school and put on my armour! As you say, Charlotte, like being a happy child again!

bountyicecream · 20/01/2014 22:21

Interesting stuff about emotions. Sometimes I feel emotionally numb and that I should be upset when I'm not. Big stuff makes me teary but there are other times when I just feel....odd

KouignAmann · 20/01/2014 22:27

I think living with a FW is like being a soldier in a battle zone. The unexpected blows that rain down when you should be in a safe place are so painful that you live eat and sleep in your body armour and don't dare soften for fear than you will get caught unprotected.
Then when you get away from the FW you can slowly step away from the protective shell and feel the sadness, the fear and the pain. But also the joy, the relief and the hope!

FairyFi · 20/01/2014 22:49

Thats Sad not heard anything either.

emotions and rollercoasters for a while. I loved rollercoasters, I think I'll steer clear a while yet!

very satisfying finished a very long day's work after another very long day's work, and just guess what??? everything is calm - its not all done and tidied away, and all the edges looking a bit ragged, but very happy with achievements and, did I say, calm? Smile

a bad night last night, and horrid flashbacks, but also changes.

Its the changes that I'm trying to focus on

Noregrets78 · 21/01/2014 09:36

The talking about emotions and armour has been interesting. I tried describing this to my Mum once. I said it felt like I'd started off hiding behind a wall when he was unleashing the FW. Then I started building up that wall, until it became a big think concrete bunker. i was doing well at work, coping well with the world, because I was protecting myself.

Since we've split up, I've been off sick with stress, burst into tears more times than I can count, and been through a round of counselling. I feel exposed and unsure. It feels like I'm now on my way to contemplating what I think about things, and making my own decisions. Doesn't sound like rocket science, but I know you lot will understand.

Fraggletits · 21/01/2014 10:18

Interesting. I don't really cry in front of others either and can very much take things in my stride but I am loving, compassionate and caring. FW on the other hand will cry at bloody family fortunes or any old rubbish on TV, or over his feelings after one of our ding dongs - and yet because I don't will accuse me of being heartless and cold even though he's the one who will show not a shred of compassion when tearing me down and being cruel.

I'm in a bit of a state actually. Second day off work at home on the sofa. Last week I was so strong and looking forward to a happy single life - I knew the vital importance of no contact when I left him, and then 2 days later he texts me to say he's lost his job. My parents forced me to get back in contact because of needing to know what's going on financially, and now here I am, back home, he's back, painting an image of a happy future, tearful at the thought of being away from us, wants to relocate back to London to be near work and home so that he's around more to help out, spend more time with the kids, get a less pressurised job so he's happier - and all the while keeping in mind that I'm just as abusive as he is. He keeps stressing that point - me leaving with the kids last week because he'd spent most of Saturday calling me disgusting names just because of a difference of opinion was worse than anything he has ever said.

Relocation plans wouldn't be until the summer so the kids had a September start in a new school - but it's never going to change is it? I need to just save up enough money to leave and then get out before then don't I? Sad

TheSparklyPussycat · 21/01/2014 10:29

Fraggle you aren't the first person to find themselves back in it all. But you are seeing things clearly now, as your last para demonstrates.

You protecting yourself and kids by leaving is a whole different kettle of fish from what he's been doing. And not abusive! But you know this...

Strength and warm wishes to you.

KouignAmann · 21/01/2014 10:42

Sorry to hear you are in a state. And sorry your parents forced you to re-engage with him. They are part of the problem aren't they?

You might find it helps at the moment to step back a little mentally and detach. Do the "fly on the wall" observation of your FW and imagine you were watching the two of you interact. Note his attempts to wound you and get a reaction with his barbs and aggression. Then detach, smile to yourself and say inwardly "I see what is happening here FW and I choose not to play that game"
We have played FW bingo here so many times and it always hold true. They all come up with the same lines.

You can get away. And he can't force you to stay. But keep quiet and bide your time and make plans!

Fraggletits · 21/01/2014 10:52

Thank you sparkly puss and kouign - good tips that's what I'll do, play FW bingo for a while. Yes my parents are part of the problem, they're controlling too (I'm 37 fgs!) it comes from wanting the best for me I.e finances in this case, but more often than not turns out to be the worst for me.

I'm really mindful in letting my DD's make their own minds up for themselves (most of the time!)