I'm an ow

[fuckitanyway]

I'm in love with a married man. He's my boss.

I am also married and have a lovely life. I love my husband and children. He doesn't hide the fact he loves his family and his wife.

I'm a member of mumsnet for about 7 years now - I'm not trolling - Friday night bumsex, Pom bears etc.

I'm not going to make the bazillion apologies I'm supposed to and know I should because it's ridiculous. I'm mortified, ashamed, I feel such a complete fucking moron at times. I keep doing it - so it's inexcusable and pointless and disingenuous to try rationalise it.

No one plans on leaving anyone. He's 24 years older than me.

It started one year and four months ago and now has run away with me.

I have attempted to post this a million times. I was too much of a coward.

I don't know what to do.

I'm sorry to anyone I've hurt. Could you help me? I understand and accept I'll be flamed.

I also agree with lostdomain. There are many benefits of a companionable long term relationship

Numpty marriages like lostdomain's aren't a rarity. At least not in my experience. They are my norm in fact. To the extent that I just wouldn't believe a couple who'd been together over 10 or 15 years who said they'd always been loved-up and in a constant state of delirious passion for one another. I'd think that were protesting just a bit too much and were probably attempting to hide something.

But then again I'm not quite sure why posts about loving, warm and sexual long-term relationships have sparked references to dull, passionless, plodding and tedious coupledom- as though relationships that are not in a permanent state of clothes-being-ripped-off-in-the-hall on return from work- are like that. That seems like a very black and white view of monogamous relationships.

The other issue is that people's couple relationships are just one aspect of a full life aren't they? Most emotionally healthy adults have other relationships and other esteem builders. Some people get huge esteem from professional life or amazing, enduring friendships. Or from being needed or admired by relatives, children and even staff. I do think people who are disproportionately defined by their sexual desirability and their role as a romantic partner are probably more at risk of reaching for a quick-fix ego boost than those who see it as just a part of their make-up.

So the person who for example, has always taken a disproportionate pride in their looks and their fanciability, might cope less well with middle-age, a bit of weight gain, the baby-sick clothes years, thinning hairlines or the appearance of chin or nose hairs! Much more vulnerable perhaps to someone saying 'oh you're so attractive'

"... together over 10 or 15 years who said they'd always been loved-up and in a constant state of delirious passion for one another. ........relationships that are not in a permanent state of clothes-being-ripped-off-in-the-hall on return from work....."

Leavenheath!! Where has anyone on this thread made assertions to this effect, you are exagerating to press your point.

I do expect a relationship between a man and a woman that is set to last to have the glue of sex present, and to feel that there is some degree of frisson and excitment there. Not content with lauding the "putting up with things" definition of love we have now moved on to the fact that being middle aged, letting yourself go - putting on weight and not being bo;thered is far safer than the really dangerous course of wanting to look good. Yes medicority is very comfortable, but you only live once and I would hope most people asire to high standards in their relationships and appearance. Companionship sounds bad, companionship with a flabby belly, thin hair and baby sick down me sounds even worse!

I know that on the odd occasion I venture onto one of these threads a lenient view towards infidelity in some circumstances leads to someone just having to say I have had an affair ( which I haven't) But the reality is that those who post on the relationships and little if anything else day in and day out, are very keen to see off anyone else who disagrees with them.

There is this strange Daily Mail-esque "let this be a lesson" mentality that crops up where people get their just deserts. The reality is that when marriages end , whether it is for a new partner or some other reason, in the end it generally comes right, I don't know anyone who has pined away in a hovel for the rest of their days. One couple we know (they both remain friends of ours) split up when the wife put on a lot of weight and the husband looked elsewhere. That sounds pretty awful but the reality was that the wife had put on the weight because she was unhappy in her choice to follow her husband round the country while he pursued his career. Once they had split she pursued her own career and became fit, thin and happy, he married the OW and they have been together for over 20 years now. Eventually they became friends again and now both come to social events with thier partners.

Higgle, no we haven't moved on that position. You seem very focused on women who put on a lot of weight though . So many of your posts mention it, which amongst other things you've said, led to me making the comment before about you appearing to have a dislike of women. Those posts seem to have far more in common with the Daily Mail's sidebar of shame and obsession with women's appearance, than anything else anyone has written.

In my post I was actually referring to people whose heads can get turned after they are coping with a change of appearance or something that can't be changed, like growing older and hair loss. Whereas in yours, you focus again on the appearance of their partners who like you keep saying, have 'let themselves go' and because of that, their partners have been unfaithful. An interesting and quite revealing response, I'd say.

Like I said before, posters can write what they like and it doesn't make it true.

leaven i think it's unfair that you've responded with a return to the false dichotomy - which i have already addressed. that's not good faith communication imo and it seems a bit pointless to repeat myself on that front as you have already read it.

people may not like my opinions or disagree with my views on here but i have tried to communicate my thoughts in response to others rather than be... combatorial or exaggerating (tabloidising) what others say in order to react.

not sure i'm making sense. zombie-fied from movies and popcorn and generally lazing with ds today.

and you seem to be picking the easy route in your 'debating' with higgle re: call her out on things she's not meant to say, assume and insinuate they make her misogynist and general peanut gallery posturing.

people aren't thick. i don't think spin is altogether effective when the other persons words are right there to be seen.

Hey, Numpty, I was responding to this post of yours:

yes that does all sound lovely lostdomain - it's hard to see any marriages like that though where that true partnership is happening and many people who stay in marriages with people who don't offer the kind of support and consideration you describe. though reading mn probably doesn't help my perspective

I thought you were saying that you thought marriages like that were few and far between. If I've misunderstood that I apologise.

As for me, hungover after NYE so apologise again if there's been miscommunication. I've found your posts interesting and helpful.

i was referring to you pretending we were saying that unless a relationship constituted two people tearing each other clothes off endlessly it was crap. polarising and exaggerating when i think that has been reputedly clarified and reputed.

Well yes that was the impression I was getting from some of the posts. I think it was appalling that lostdomain spoke openly and from the heart about her good marriage and was told that what she had described would propel a person to consider voluntary euthanasia. You were far more measured and kind in your response to that heartfelt post, IMO.

but one man's heaven IS another man's hell and that's allowed. think it's indicative of how holy cow-ish marriage is seen to be that if someone says god i couldn't do that or christ that sounds hellish to me but fair play if it makes you happy it's as if they shot someone's dog or something.

lost domain is apparently very happy with her life and her marriage and her husband ergo i doubt she's going to need the world to agree with her or be despondent because someone on the internet says they wouldn't want it.

I don't think it's about the sacred nature of marriage particularly. It could equally apply to someone talking about how happy their job, friendship, mother-child relationship or hobby was. If the person listening's response is 'I'd rather kill myself' without even the softening 'but fair play to you if it makes you happy' then no, not many people would get despondent especially if it was a stranger commenting. It might make them not want to spend any more time in that person's company though, or to give any more credence to their opinions.

Yes, very perceptive, Leavenheath - I do have a thing about weight. It is 100% worth the effort but very hard work to be size 10 for me. I've put on 9lb as I've just come back from a late summer holiday and went straight into Christmas celebrations to it is a bit of a preoccupation until I get back to work and into normal routine again. I don't mind sharing personal stuff, and as I’ve said before I have not name changed ( except for one medical matter ) since I joined in 2008, so unlike some I don't criticise everyone else and keep everything about myself anonymous.
I'm ashamed of myself if I'm more than size 12 and feel it shows a lack of self control in others too. We only live once, we get this little caddy (body) to carry ourselves around in and it seems a bit ungrateful to neglect it and not keep it well maintained and looking good. I hate exercise with a vengeance but force myself to run and go to the gym.

I don't think we will ever agree on here and I have no idea if the people I'm talking to are Hotter shoe wearing vicars' wives (I'd know for certain then!) but life should be fun, not full of duty and faith and all that stuff. I'd rather be on my own (quite like being on my own actually) than in some relationship that was too much of a struggle.

Leavenheth you criticise my comments but there was a touch of the Daily Mail "she got what she deserved" in one of yours where you mentioned a woman who had multiple affairs and she and her husband had no friends - I'm not even sure how you could have known that!

You felt it appropriate to comment on my interest in obesity and I wonder if you have any character traits that cause you to spend so much of your life on the relationships thread repeating the same views again and again?

Do I like women? Ivery much like people (nice ones) I'm not sexist

Blimey, I missed the voluntary euthanasia versus my marriage post. Don't think I'll trawl back to look for it!
As I've clearly decided on this thread to hold up a flag for long marriages (as I do generally in life) then I feel I should add, DH and I also have a bit of tearing clothes off in the hall and he is very outspoken about still finding me gorgeous, which is a massive ego boost to live with day in day out.

Higgle, I genuinely do think long term love is vastly superior to short term, highly charged affairs if those affairs are extra marital. I think it's a shame that a vast number of people split up and move on to the next person then realise that domestic drudgery and their own shortcomings have just shipped along with them. Only they have destroyed so much in the process that they feel obliged to say the second time round is better and was worth the mayhem and misery inflicted on others, not least young children. I think there is an emotional immaturity in people who can't stick at marriage and hold on during the bad bits, while working hard to ensure there will be better times together ahead. I also think no one is taught how to stay the course of a marriage. people skip down the aisle thinking it should be easy and exciting all the time, and that if it isn't, it's lost its value. So short sighted. Such missed opportunity, provided the marriage had genuine mutual love and respect at its core when it began.

But I also acknowledge that it's easy to say all that if you get married later in life with a strong sense of what you want and who you'd suit, long term. I was late twenties when DH and I got together and had had all the mind exploding passion with nothing else to back it up that any girl could want. When I met DH I knew deep down with a rock solid sense of calm that he was someone I could live with for the fifty years that marriage might last, Friends said, Blimey, Lost is getting married, never thought she would (especially the blokes, they all thought there wasn't a faithful bone in my body because I'd never really had steady relationships before and always sought that passion then weaselled my way out of things when they got domestic.)

I know that I've never been happier than I am now, nor ever felt life was so vivid and rich from day to day, or more full of opportunities for excitement and fulfilment, even though it may look safe and suburban from the outside.

Leavenheth you criticise my comments but there was a touch of the Daily Mail "she got what she deserved" in one of yours where you mentioned a woman who had multiple affairs and she and her husband had no friends - I'm not even sure how you could have known that!

Er, no I didn't . Another poster wrote that, didn't she?

I had a touch of the seconds there for a moment though because as it happens I did know a woman a bit like that, but can't remember if I've ever posted about her. I haven't on this thread at least.

I'm actually not 'here' very much Higgle but I've been around more in the past couple of weeks because of having to use up leave. So I'm a bit bemused by your observation that I spend so much of my life on Mumsnet. You'd have to be here every day yourself to clock people's accurate useage though, wouldn't you?

The character traits that motivate me to post on relationships when I do though are probably much the same as most contributors. A desire to help where I think I can, curiosity and downright nosiness about other people's lives, enjoying the challenge of transmitting thoughts to 'paper' and the opportunity to learn from others.

YY to your post lostdomain. V similar story here in every respect and enjoying the freedom of an emptier house more than before .

Duh, hangover clearly hasn't quite gone. I mean the house is emptier more than it was before, not that I'm enjoying it more.

sadly lots of people are taught so well to 'stay the course' and 'fly the flag' for long marriages that they stay in even abusive relationships or ones that endanger their children. they stay and make toxic families that the poor children suffocate in.

wish we could get away from the black and white, binary debate on this. a long marriage is not a valuable thing in itself. healthy relationships are great however you choose to have them and of course long term support and mutuality is great however and wherever you find that.

calling people who leave their marriages emotionally immature is very insulting as i'm sure you must realise. 'hard times' can mean anything from adultery to being beaten to watching your children be terrorised or even just treated like a doormat whose existence is to domestically and sexually service someone and expect very little in return.

we should be careful what we say.

also careful not to generalise from 'me' to 'universal'. if long marriage has suited you then great for you. it has worn the soul of out some and it's a documented reality that married women have worse mental health than single women (and vice versa for men funnily enough). talking about how marriage is x and long marriage is to be encouraged and short marriage must mean failure on the part of the couple is daft at best and really quite damaging at worst.

you've also managed to insult second marriages there and make out that people in them are pretending to happy to cover up the fact that they regret leaving the first one. not too kind and i suspect a nonsense bit of armchair philosophy as so much of this thread is really.

I was insulting second marriages that have grown out of affairs where loving spouses and children were trampled on.

Numpty you are polarising too. What we are trying to talk about relates to the OP's post, which is the values versus dangers of an affair in the context of a loving marriage (which OP said she had.) I'm strongly advocating that people stay in loving marriages when they hit a dull patch. No one on here has ever suggested people should stay in violent abusive marriages. That's a massive digression from the tenor of the discussion.

If OP had come on and written about her affair and admitted that her current H was abusive and that the affair gave her happiness, I'd be backing her up to get out. But not to get out with the married man in tow, Because she might want long term some one who respects a spouse and doesn't cheat on them. Who has the emotional maturity to get out of a marriage that isn't working before embarking on a new affair.

The comments about emotional immaturity stand. If you're married to a good, loving person but that marriage is dull and you can't be arsed to work out why and try and sort it out, or you have tried but nothing has worked, then get out first. Don't go grinding round the office with a married boss and lie to kids and husband. Emotional deeply immature, whether the affair ends in a second marriage or not.

Funny isn't it? I didn't read lostdomain's comments that way and I've no idea whether she posts on threads like I do urging women to leave unhappy and abusive relationships. There was nothing in what she said there that made me think she meant people should stay in abject misery, just that folk should be realistic about relationships (and life itself) not always being plain sailing. I think she was referring to those times when life gets a bit dull, or a bit pressurised and as she's said before, both people make a decision to do something about that together instead of jumping ship when a nice shiny new bauble appears on the tree.

I so agree therefore that the length of a marriage or the existence of a relationship itself tells us nothing about its quality or its happiness. Wasn't someone saying that she had 'done' 20 odd years?

I think all relationships can benefit from a bit of an overhaul and process of re-negotiation every now and then, especially when big life changes beckon like kids leaving home, new jobs etc. It's quite a good thing to re-evaluate what you're both getting out of the relationship now, instead of assuming it's the same as it's always been for you and especially your partner.

I need to repeat I've been married for 30 years in August, brought up 2 sons so I' m not anti long term relationships and know about baby sick ! I would not still be in this marriage though if Dh and I lived the life of lord and lady Whiteadder.

Phew, didn't want to speak for you there lost! Glad I understood you (at least I hope I did, hangover remnants notwithstanding!)

You did, Leaven, thanks for the interpretation. I'm not a pursed lip DM reading 'made your bed now lie in it' type. But I do think there's a trend to jump ship in marriage these days and that the misery and trauma this causes is underplayed, while the pursuit of self-fulfilment/passionate love is overplayed. There are ways to fulfilment and passion that don't destroy innocent parties who care for you.

I'm 50 and have seen many marriages fail, stagger through, thrive, rejuvenate, fall apart for no reason/good reason. My comments are based on what I've picked up from all of these, not on some narcissistic assumption that I'm happy therefore everyone else should be, so I'm sorry if I've given that impression.

It also seems to me that there is a fair bit of wishful thinking in thinking that when relationships break down everyone goes on to be happier afterward. Sometimes yes a relationship is making both parties unhappy and ending is the right thing and they both go on to better relationships or single lives. Sometimes relationships are toxic or one party is actively making the other one unhappy, and those relationships should end too. But whether or not the individuals come out undamaged is quite another matter. I know people who are happier, and people who are sadder, those that have new better lives and those that really struggle.

Mutually agreed partings, even those accompanied by sadness that it didn't work out are a world away from the abrupt and painful end brought about by the discovery of an affair. When happiness and stability are ripped away from you it is very painful, it makes you re-evaluate your self, who you are, the choices you make, whether you can trust, how the world works etc. You can recover from that of course, but it's foolish to pretend that it doesn't leave scars, or that 'happily ever after' is likely to come along shortly afterwards.

When children's homes and families are ripped apart too then that can also cause life long issues for them in how they form relationships as well as the immediate pain and difficulty that comes from living through your parents anger and upset, and then the split lives that follows in many cases.

No one has to cheat. You can end a long marriage as we did and then look elsewhere. That's is the proper course. Anything else is lying and cheating and selfish and in some cultures you would be stoned to death and in others it would be a mortal sin and rot in hell.

No one is so sexually out of control that they cannot keep their knickers up. They can seek to make things better with their partner and if that does not work separate and only after that look for pastures new. Mind you 30% of couples cheat so there is a huge lot of it about. I reject a married many every month on on line dating. I could easily seek to entice them from a wife but I would rather be single.

lostdomain i wasn't saying you were advocating staying in abusive marriages but felt the need to take your general comments about long marriage as an achievement and giving up on marriages as weakness and immaturity and to look at specifics. re: healthy relationships are great but that's the first priority rather than duration. we never know who is reading and whilst i'm sorry if you thought i was accusing you of being a DM, made your bed now lay in it type it has at least meant you've gone on to clarify and there's been discussion of how it is a good thing to leave a destructive relationship.

personally i find it hard to believe people leave good marriages on a whim - it seems to me that the problem comes earlier as in marrying someone without enough thought and certainty and enough time perhaps to have grown and filled out a bit as an individual. so the problem is just as likely the over valuing of marriage in a way that makes everyone just follow that train without enough time and thought rather than the ease of divorce in some cases. if how you live, who you live with, what shape your family is less socially conditioned and pressured then perhaps people make better choices based on what they really want and are able for rather than what they think they're meant to do next.

personally if someone has been married before and it didn't work out and they're relatively young i don't tend to see it as a problem of their sticking at a relationship or being immature to leave - i tend to judge the fact that they got married in the first place. does that make sense? as in i would have to be bloody sure of myself, the relationship, our compatibility and vision for the future etc before i was able to actually marry someone. some people seem to get married without any great depth of thought and without having reached any real emotional maturity in themselves yet.