I'm an ow

[fuckitanyway]

I'm in love with a married man. He's my boss.

I am also married and have a lovely life. I love my husband and children. He doesn't hide the fact he loves his family and his wife.

I'm a member of mumsnet for about 7 years now - I'm not trolling - Friday night bumsex, Pom bears etc.

I'm not going to make the bazillion apologies I'm supposed to and know I should because it's ridiculous. I'm mortified, ashamed, I feel such a complete fucking moron at times. I keep doing it - so it's inexcusable and pointless and disingenuous to try rationalise it.

No one plans on leaving anyone. He's 24 years older than me.

It started one year and four months ago and now has run away with me.

I have attempted to post this a million times. I was too much of a coward.

I don't know what to do.

I'm sorry to anyone I've hurt. Could you help me? I understand and accept I'll be flamed.

Great posts from others too. I don't mean to suggest that a psychological understanding of this for the OP isn't crucial.

One thing that people don't seem to be picking up on is the issue of the abuse of power that has gone on here. He is her boss. There are good reasons why relationships between people on different rungs of any hierarchy are usually forbidden. Lecturers / students; different military ranks etc. If someone who is in a position of authority over you, who has some control over your career / income, begins to act inappropriately then it can be very hard to see clearly what is going on.

Grooming at this level, by powerful men, can be subtle and manipulative. I had a very straight laced aunt who was groomed (in a non-sexual way)by a "lovely kind and generous" boss who was engaged in major fraud, she narrowly escaped jail herself. He didn't want her body, he just wanted her trust and for her to sign off on invoices without too much double checking.

OP please think back to the start of the relationship, when things began to subtly change between you. Who was driving that change?

catsrus I really don't see the sense in absolving the OP from all guilt by painting her as some sort of victim.

Having authority over someone is also a very powerful aphrodisiac and some people are vulnerable to that.

I don't see that OP needs absolution or excusing, she's an adult, but knowing the pitfalls and having the awareness and sense of self-preservation to dodge them are often two different things.

Leavenheath thank you for your brilliant reply to my questions. I agree with all that you say about motives, except I still don't get that bit about it already being in place before you know what it is. Because the faithful among us, male or female are not dead to the allure of others, we just manage our lives and ourselves so that it would be unthinkable to get into that state.

There is a tiny tipping point at which you make the choice to say yes or no to an affair. It is a decision. It's a life choice, like any other big life changing event. And what I want to know is: what is the underlying impetus for saying yes? I agree that it's likely to be vengeance against the life currently lived, combined with a deep emotional inertia, that prevents people from getting excitement from something more demanding than an affair. But the threat to your children, the threat to the spouse who loves you is so vast - I still think there is some aggression at play there, and this is something which is not talked about, not admitted, especially perhaps among women who are unfaithful. To suggest you feel aggression towards your spouse or child, you want them to suffer, want to threaten them and put their stability and happiness in jeopardy - that's an ugly thing to admit, but that is exactly what a person is doing, willingly. Why? Lust aside, what is the motive for such aggression towards loved ones?

it's about control, I think. No time to say more now - just to throw that in for your consideration.

I really don't see the sense in absolving the OP from all guilt by painting her as some sort of victim. I'm not sure how you could read that into what I posted Waltermitty .

If we don't learn from our mistakes we are doomed to repeat them. The OP appears not to really understand how she got herself into this situation, she doesn't want to be in it, if it was easy for her to get out of it she would. I think she needs to look at the process by which she got involved. Perhaps he groomed her, perhaps she seduced him? perhaps his power was something she found attractive, erotic?

My exH (24yrs) went off with the OW and married her, he was not her first MM, the previous one wanted a mistress not a new wife, so I am not an apologist for OW.

The OP hasn't just made one mistake, she has made a series of bad decisions and is now in a situation where her work life and emotional life are horribly enmeshed and entangled. She says she wants help. I am suggesting that she examines how she got into the situation in the first place. If it does involve any aspect of abuse of power / grooming by her boss then realising this might help her begin to disengage. It's not about blame and guilt at this point, it's about trying to change the situation with minimum damage to the other members of both families.

There is going to be damage, I don't see how that can be avoided, but some courses of action will be more damaging than others.

It doesn't read to me like she wants it to end.

And I see no reason to suppose there was any sort of grooming because he happens to be her boss!

I absolutely agree that she needs to look at what made her get into this in the first place. But she will only be able to do that honestly if she owns her own behaviour and doesn't look for outside excuses (IMO).

Just because he happens to be the one in the position of authority doesn't mean she's been manipulated, coaxed or groomed into this. He has a wife and family too!

As you say, she could have "seduced" him (though I hate that word.)

Or, they both could have made the conscious decision to do this without any one person holding any more control or power over the other.

catsrus so sorry to read about your ex-h - though you may not be sorry now, of course.

People can be extraordinarily naive when their egos are being flattered by the attentions of another, unaware that they're being manipulated. I don't believe this is gender specific.

I've seen some brilliant discussions about this on other threads and there are posters who explain this very well, but I'll give my own thoughts for what they are worth.

I think we live in a world of conflicting cultures. It's widely regarded as a huge positive to have friendships with- in this case- men and as you'll have seen on Mumsnet if you've been around a while, the 'group think' is always that it's entirely possible to make friends within the sexual group(s) you're attracted to, without it leading to sex. Even if sexual attraction is there.

So far, so right.

But then when we step out of that optimistic view of human nature, we notice that despite all that, affairs with people who started out as friends or colleagues are common.

So the culture is to be positive about friendships and negative about affairs.

I'm not suggesting this is what happened to the OP, but I can envisage a situation where this boss-employee relationship started very positively and the OP was overjoyed she had a great boss who she got on with so well. Likewise he might have been pleased to have such a good member of staff who seemed to 'get' him. Because the culture is that this was only a positive and good thing neither might have put in any boundaries at all to this developing into something else entirely.

I don't think it's that people fail to register this is dangerous territory, although there's a pay-off in not doing so until it's too late, it's that people trust themselves and their own willpower way too much. So before that first overnight conference, or drink after work 'to discuss a sensitive business issue' I can imagine these two cognitively recognising the danger, but promising themselves they wouldn't let things get out of hand.

That final decision probably doesn't have the significance you suggest. By then the addiction's so strong and the boundaries so weak or non-existent, that in the place of the sort of rational risk-assessments you describe about it being an aggressive act with horrendous consequences, some really banal rationalisations take their place.

No-one need ever find out. This won't hurt anyone. It's just a bit of fun. If we don't fall in love it will be okay. What the eye can't see. This isn't dangerous at all because I'm happy at home and will never want to rock the boat.

Even If I was going through a bad patch in my marriage, I wouldn't risk it because I'd be more likely to fall in love and want to leave. But we're not, so this is never going to threaten my marriage

I'm not saying BTW that affairs are never intentionally aggressive acts, or that aggression and punishment aren't sometimes there. But I don't think that's a primary motivating factor in these 'bit of fun' affairs.

I can see that some men and women resent having to go to work and having a life chockfull of responsibilities and if the other partner appears to have an easier life or can cope better with life's challenges, maybe there's something about weaker characters giving themselves a secret 'treat' that they regard as all theirs and which gives them a prop to cope with their resentment, but usually this is seen again as a good thing because instead of snapping at the kids about treating the house as a hotel or snarling at a partner that they've got the life of Riley, in the initial stages these resentful characters are probably easier to live with.

I don't think that lasts though. Usually the stress, the lack of emotional presence and occasionally guilt kicks in and the arguments at home get worse, not better. At least for a non-compartmentaliser.

Finally, I don't think we're talking about people who secretly harbour hate or massive aggression towards their partners and children, much beyond normal 'is this my life now?' territory that I reckon everyone feels some times, however fundamentally content they are with their partners. But I think we are talking about ordinary people who think they are stronger-willed than is often possible, once an addiction's taken hold. People who aren't self-aware at all who can recognise the signs of addiction in themselves- and are then too selfish to back away.

what's interesting for me is seeing other people condemn the OP and try to make this all black and white and a solid clear moral line with no excuses is making me question my own usual black and white views on this.

maybe seeing others indulge in what you usually indulge in makes you take a clearer look at it - though one would think it would just lead to confirmation bias....

i am the child of someone who had affairs and all the resulting hell followed by coming home and having to pretend nothing happened and going back to the usual marital hell. like someone else said upthread i lost all respect for both of my parents and it probably is a part of why i prefer to be independent and am raising my child on my own. i have to say though that i never invested much energy in the 'OW' - she wasn't my concern, i never thought to hate her or even wonder about her much (them rather than her in reality). i even had to go to one ows house once with my father to collect his stuff and sat at her kitchen table whilst he cleared out. i don't recall feeling hate or anger towards her even though i recall her idiotically trying to make small chat with me about how my exams were going.

i really have plenty of reason to see all this in black and white terms and i have certainly tended to historically. for me personally there's a very clear rule set deep in me that i won't cheat or condone being cheated on or be a party to cheating and if i'm unhappy in a relationship and don't love the person anymore i will leave - i can't bear to live a lie of relationship let alone add other men and deceptions to the mix. yet i can't feel this contempt for the OP that others seem able to.

people are not divided into good and bad, weak and strong etc. there are some monsters in the world but them aside people are mostly just very human and whether it is adultery or something else we have a tendency to do stupid self destructive or irrational things sometimes without it having to be the be all and end all of our character or a measure of our overall ethical worth.

my sister's marriage ended through adultery and she invested a huge amount of rage and bitterness towards the OW that hurt no one but herself and her children and made her.... malignant - as hate tends to.

i'm surprised to find myself wanting to defend the OP - not to defend her actions but to defend her against the reactions to them on this thread. she is a person - she's not an object or symbol of adultery and OW and the fears and realities of wives. again i'm reminded of the scapegoat analogy. people are very, very keen to declare their disgust, to state they would never do this and distance themselves from her as if she was some alien 'other'. she's one of us - another human being. we've all fucked up and done bad things - maybe not the same ones but bad things.

some will have had problems with alcohol that have jeopordised their children and family, or overworked or given into depression or whatever. adultery is not the only way to fuck up as a human being and a mother.

sorry long post.

There was a power imbalance in my exH's relationship with the OW too BTW - she totally idolized him and told him how wonderful he was, he basked in the praise and adulation - and IMO totally abused his position in relation to her - so while I am not defending OW I do know how 'players' can work. My ex should have come home and said I think youngerslimmerwoman has a crush on me and we would have talked about ways to manage it - instead he decided he'd found his soulmate . If OP had a crush on her boss then he should have gone home to his DW and talked about it.

thanks Saferniche - it's been 3 yrs and I'm not at all sorry now- I think the character flaw that allowed him to lie to his children, wider family (and probably himself) has been exposed for all to see. As for me - you know when you have a niggling tooth ache that is not bad enough to go to the dentists about? well once that tooth is gone you wonder why you didn't have it out weeks ago and the dentist wasn't that bad after all

Indeed catsrus - and dentists are far better now as well. plus you get a sticker and a balloon afterwards ;)

NumptyNameChange 'we have a tendency to do stupid self destructive or irrational things sometimes without it having to be the be all and end all of our character or a measure of our overall ethical worth.'

Yep. But we get no gold stars for doing those things. We can do better, can't we? Like it or not, a reputation for doing stupid self destructive or irrational things which hurt others is hard to shake off. I have more compassion for your sister than I would have for any ow.

Some really good posts, interesting reading. My dh had an affair and so I am interested in the drivers, and in particular why when relationships struggle (as ours did for many complex reasons, and it was one of many root causes for his choices) is it the case that in general only one party goes on to have an affair.

Numpty (and others too I think) talks about other addictions and I think that it's an interesting angle. I am generally fairly risk averse when it comes to my own behaviour (although I've done some very stupid things in my time) and my gut reaction to things like people coming on to me or even the stirrings of attraction is to run a mile, because of all the 'what ifs'. My only addiction is to things like getting up late or reading too much. dh on the other hand is one of those people who will eat every chocolate in the house, can't quit smoking etc, and his mum was an alcoholic. I wonder if that made him more vulnerable to the 'high' of his affair, where I would have been creeped out by the concept?

Regarding the hatred/revenge aspect, I think that there is an element of that, but that it's a consequence rather than a driver. So you love your family, but just not enough to affect your behaviour, and then once the affair has started to consume you you start to resent and demonize them (although with your kids this may be more abstract, more to do with the idea of having children, or your tolerance for their bad behaviours).

dh's affair seemed to push him back into teenage behaviour, all moodiness and strops at home, with the most ridiculous protestations of love to his OW (he is very embarrassed by the poems etc he wrote at the time - very Adrian Mole really).

Oh come on. Its about having your cake and eating it and being selfish to the core. Period!!

If it isn't about the above, why doesn't the mistress just come clean about the affair? Its not all about her!!

Too much bullshit and opinions when I think it is so much simpler than that.

Op fell out of love but is too gutless to face up and do anything about it because it might put her out!!

I disagree with you, CookieDoughKid but then again, opinions are like arseholes aren't they?

Meh, everybody falls out of love at some point in a long relationship. Just as people fall back in love at other points. This unrealistic belief in a constant state of 'in loveness' in partner relationships spanning years is one of the reasons affairs happen, IMO. It's unrealistic. What's more likely is that the OP wasn't 'in love' with her husband when she started flirting with Boss Man, anymore than her husband was 'in love' with her. But they probably loved eachother, which is entirely different.

The OP has repeatedly used the phrase 'in love' with her boss. Not that she 'loves' him because how could she? She doesn't know him well enough to love him. Perhaps her feelings for her husband have taken a marked downturn though since she 'fell in love' with the OM. That happens, but after the affair has started, not necessarily before.

And yeah Nooka, I agree that people with addictive and compulsive personalities are more drawn to affairs. Risk-takers with poor risk assessment abilities, too.

I agree 'in love' is a real give away for 'infatuated'. How many people in good happy long term relationships say that they are 'in love' with their partner? To me 'in love' is that chemical butterflies in stomach feeling (the one that has all those addictive qualities) which is accentuated by intrigue and secrecy.

Love on the other hand is deep and abiding. The first can lead to the second, but they are different, and to me the later is the one that matters, lasts the test of time etc (not that there won't be moments of 'in loveless' too at times). Risking/throwing away love for infatuation is essentially what happens with many affairs.

Sadly most of us are fairly poor at risk assessment (I'm a risk manager!)

'dh's affair seemed to push him back into teenage behaviour, all moodiness and strops at home,'

It really isn't romantic, is it? Like the moment when Mme Bovary takes rat poison or Anna Karenina throws herself in front of the 9:15 to Halifax. Why can't I have all the cake I want? You're all so controlling.

Oh yes, the things he said about me (and other family members) were just extraordinary! I overheard him talking to his OW about the Christmas we had just spent with his sister and you would have thought he'd been tortured instead of feasted (she is a fantastic host). A complete reality bender. And yet at the time he thought that he was hiding the affair completely, he simply didn't recognize that as far as I was concerned he had had some sort of personality transfer. Yet another delusion that people having affairs seem to embrace 'I'm not hurting anyone/no one will know'. Plus the enormous downer when the affair relationship ends - you would have thought dh had been bereaved when his OW dumped him.

I'm sure impactless affairs do occur, but I suspect they are very uncommon, and the 'I'm so happy that of course it's great for everyone else' line is just baloney.

Oh and just in case readers think I'm being bitter and malicious dh's affair was a long time ago and we are very happy/content again. I reflect back with incredulity really.

i didn't say it deserved gold stars. i'm thinking that's clear to anyone who actually read what i said rather than just projected onto it so strongly they couldn't see what it said.

nevermind.

back to slating OW and patting ourselves on the back about how morally superior we are i guess.

and of course i had compassion for my sister - i never said anything to suggest otherwise. i was pointing out that from what i have observed pouring energy and spite into hating the OW does nothing to help and a lot to hurt the injured party. hate and spite is not good for us.

nooka you rock. It's no surprise that many cases of (as one of my friends calls it) 'mucking about with another woman's front bottom' happen when the dcs become teenagers themselves.

And yes I have been there. And it is hell. But it is not me who has made an utter idiot of herself. My therapist says: 'There really were no adults involved, were there?' The adult was at home looking after the actual children. Dull as real life may be, at least we have our self-respect, plus the integrity of keeping our knickers on in front of a married man we barely know. My 19 year old son tells me "Men like to chase things. When they catch them they realise, bugger, this one's the same as all the others.." In midlife, I warn him, you may forget this salient fact.