"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Bedtime, this is intimidation. You're supposed to feel scared.

I think, for avoidance of doubt, text her Boyf and tell him not to get involved, and state to the pair of them that there will be no christmas day visits.

I hate bullies. As scary as it is, stand up to them.

Can dh do the door slamming in faces if need be?

You're not being over sensitive bedtime. When my Dad first threatened me by text, I couldn't stop shaking and felt sick. All the old feelings come back, all memories. It's not just an isolated incident is it? It causes flashbacks and the fear rises to the surface again You start to worry about what will happen next, what they'll do. You start to worry about what the right thing is to do.

It's easy for me to sit here and advise you but when you're in it, with all those emotions, it's hard to think straight.

Wish I could give you a squeeze.

Thanks Hissy, the problem is bro is still in the fog re my dad. My dad has always been the enabler to my mums drama. If it was my mum saying all of this my brother would have no hesitation in calling her bluff. But until recently we all felt sorry for dad as knew how hard it is to live with mum, and my brother still feels this way. We all assumed that i was the closest to dad, but obviously not the case, and so when he sees my dad crying cos he cant face the wedding as too heartbroken about me, he just sees a poor man who has done no wrong and yet has lost his daughter. If my brother was to pull the 'what will people think if you don't go to your son's wedding?' Card, that might work as dad was always worrying about how he/the family was perceived by others. But think my bro is genuinely upset and angry and not sure he would do that

Talk to your brother, talk rationally and explain everything very carefully.

Trust me the public image thing will work, ;)

Hi all yes the public image thing. They all seemed obsessed with this.

Don't step on a bauble- yes that's how I feel. It sends me in to a spin my mind etc and everything rises to surface. It leaves me in limbo not knowing what I should do.

Hissy- yes bullying it does feel this way. Yes he could do that slamming door thing but I don't want any fighting.

I didn't text back but I got a text a few hours later saying this from him " sorry to be harsh really worried about your mum. She is so upset and just want you all to get along "

I haven't replied. What do you think ? Just leave it? Or say something?

I think I have a plan. The worst is her texting me via mobile and Facebook. Therefore I think if I stop these which are everyday then it will be a bit easier. I can have a rest from it and see how I feel. At the moment I don't want to see her again but perhaps I will feel differently if I have a rest from it all. With her contacting me everyday. Can't think about how I really feel. I just know she gets me more and more annoyed. The worst thing about mobiles is them having access to one. I think the old traditional way of contacting people will be better with her.

Don't reply.

Attila was talking about hoovering and I think this fits the bill. Try to not get sucked in.

Now there's a second text, they've overegged the pudding.

Don't reply, and actually this it the time you go NC tbh.

Go for it, no bang, no whimper, nothing. Just enough is enough. They're all ganging up on you because they see you detaching.

Expect the Boyf messages to get more frantic/agressive.

I could be projecting, but it's a carbon copy of what happened with me.

Open up a new FB and migrate all those that aren't connected to her or your family in any way. Set it to friends only.

Treat yourself to a new sim/phone for christmas

At the moment I don't want to see her again but perhaps I will feel differently if I have a rest from it all.

This is where I am at the moment. I'm holding in my head the fact that I need to fight it a bit. I mean, not badly; I'm not refusing to do something I really want to do.

But after yesterday's 'shall I call him?' moment, I remembered that he'll call me as soon as he wants something, or to gloat that grandma has died.

Realistically, despite these moments of 'I miss having a dad that I never had', being NC is calmer. Happier.

It gives me the space I need to work on all the stuff that I have to get through at therapy. He'd probably love how all about him therapy is, but he'll never actually know.

Actually, while I'm here, I want to share something from my last session. Dad was controlling. Despite being on this thread from time to time, and despite saying he was abusive and violent, I've never actually made the connection that he was controlling. In fact, I only mentioned it on Thursday because I misread something the therapist had written down.

Once I'd made that connection, so many things started falling into place. The fear and confusion both of us (me and Dad) felt when I stepped out of his approved plan. That didn't happen until I was well into adulthood, by the way. I was the golden child. I knew it. And I did exactly what he wanted in order to reap his praise and avoid his fist, even, and I feel sick when I think of this, going so far as to attack by siblings on his behalf. He loved the discord and he adored me being on his side.

Anyhow, He left when I was 16. At 18 I went to university, and actually went away from home to study. Suddenly I was tasked with making my own choices, and I was with a whole heap of influences that weren't him. I didn't cope well. I wasn't a nice or an intelligent person.

What occurred to me on Thursday, and it was like a half brick to the face when it happened, was that I was controlled until that moment. Being controlled made me feel safe. The therapist tried hard to get me to find a negative about it, but it wasn't there; I was safest when I was a pawn.

That's why I get these impulses to crawl back when life gets hard. That's why it was so hard to break away.

But more than that - my life started falling apart so badly when I didn't have him telling me what to do. Suddenly I was rebelling or making mistakes (and that felt scary), or simply choosing to do something that was outside his plan.

And it occurred to me that I have never been taught how to behave. I've only ever been told what to do.

So now I'm helpless.

I'm 37, and I'm instinct-less and confused almost all the time. Every choice is filled with fear and stress, not just because I don't know how he'd react, but because I genuinely don't know what to do.

I don't understand how love works. I can't work out unconditional love at all. I'm pretty sure I love my children unconditionally, but that's where it stops. I don't understand how anyone would love someone who is imperfect or human, so I make believe that people are perfect and angelic so that I'm able to love them, and then I get crushed when they fail even slightly. It's odd. I can't trust myself to know that I'm in love with someone.

My father wasn't nearly so bad as some of the stories I see here, but still, I'm blown away by how much damage he caused, unwitting as it was. He wasn't even malicious; he was just stupid and ignorant.

Anyhow, I just wanted to share, because it was a bit of a breakthrough moment for me.

Hi Bedtime i would ignore the messages, as i truly believe they wouldn't miss the wedding. Keeping up appearances to outsiders & other family members will be high priority!
They keep messaging to pull you back in, don't allow it to work.

Dh is doing well to ignore mil, 3 phonecalls last night, one to my landline & another text the same as other ones. All ignored

But he was talking and moaning in his sleep last night, and waking frequently so the affects are taking their toll

My brother is not taking my calls at the moment, so i just have to wait. He is not the sort of person to do this out of spite so he must be really hurting. We have always got on and have never had any kind of disagreement as adults before this. Feel awful! Mum spent so much time trying to turn us all against each other, and now dad manages to achieve it. She must be loving this!

Am not going to go back to them but worry what this all means. Have read so many stories where siblings have fallen out over this sort of thing. This just adds to my view that he is a shit dad - i mean what loving father would make his son feel bad and threaten to ruin his wedding day! I spent so long idolising him and just didn't see how concerned he was with his own needs. And to make it worse, he is the one giving the sob story but it was HIM that cut our relationship cos it was too 'awkward' for him to continue contact with me unless i sort things out with mum. I suggested meeting him alone, calling him at on his mobile, and i sent him his usual fathers day gift and card. All met with negativity. So why is it him that gets all the sympathy? I was heartbroken by his rejection but not once did i do the whole woe is me thing to my family. I came on here and vented or cried my tears to my husband behind closed doors.

Thanks, yes things are taking there toll with me, I'm feeling really sad and unloved right now. Like none of them give a damn about me and it really hurts. I'm sad today and have been sharp with my husband. I feel panicky too and breathless.

Looking through the fog - sorry your going through this. It's really tough , you have us to talk to and everyone is so lovely on here and understanding. Your post about being confused all the time. I feel that too and the understanding love yes, I often question all of that about beng in love and what love is too. I get mad that I couldn't get my feelings straight in my mind,

Hissy - you bring a smile to my face in what feels liks such dark times thank you. A present for Christmas indeed.

I'm starting it feel a bit weak. Is it me not them! Arrrr can't wait for Xmas day will bring some relief.

Thanks pumpkin - I don't know how you both cope with them ringing incessentatly, enough to drive you round the bend. I hope you get some sort of peace and are able to enjoy christmas day with your family.

Milly - it is so sad. I'm going through same with my sister and it's very hurtful. You resent them because of them causing this friction when it all could be good. Also I feel that way about dad woe is me when he doesn't give a hoot about me. I get angry that he's getting this sympathy like you. When you've done nothing wrong remember that Milly. Youve been fighting with all your might to have a relationship and he just tramples on it and is determined to push you away. He's destroying your relationship not you.

Milly, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Can you leave it a couple of weeks before raising it with your brother? It will be too raw at the moment for your brother to take.

For what it's worth, the last time I saw my dad was at my brother's wedding. My husband had agreed to be a bit of a barrier, so had gone up quite early to exchange pleasantries, in the hope that Dad would assume he'd been talked to, and would leave me alone. I was then wedged in a corner with my siblings and husband between me and the room.

He did manage to come up to me at one point and put his arm around me (ick) and say 'I haven't spoken to you yet.'

I said that I'd be speaking to other people, so not to worry, then ducked out. We left early, but as far as LilBro knew, everything had been fine. Everything was technically fine, but it became something to get through for LilBro's sake rather than a nice event to be enjoyed.

It was horrible; the build up to it was so stressful, and the event wasn't enjoyable, but I got through it OK.

BigBro's wedding was similarly awful. He was not talking to Grandma at the time, but BigBro invited her in a strange sort of let's all make up move. Dad ended up having a panic attack and I had to take him to the beach to calm him down.

I'm not sure what the point of these stories is. I suppose; you're not alone. It's hideous, but you're not alone.

Bedtime - sorry things are so tough for you at the moment. I agree that a new mobile no and facebook account is the way to go. When i went NC with mum i got a new mobile no and although i didnt receive daily calls it helped me feel in control. I knew she couldn't call my mobile no, and i could let any calls to the landline go straight to answerphone. She lives too far away to pop in so the only thing she could do was write. It really helped me to feel relaxed and peaceful in my own home.

Pumpkin - pleased that your dh is doing so well, hope it continues for you both

Hello, I've posted here on older threads under a different nn, thought I had said enough to out myself and had hoped that I would not need to post again, but here I am. I'm the DIL of an abusive woman who I haven't spoken to directly in over four years, and as such I feel awful taking the time away from those still dealing with these people.

Long, horrible story cut very short: MIL is textbook narcissist, FIL her loyal enabler, SIL and MIL's sister also both pretty poisonous and enabling. I went 'nc' with them all four years ago, DH about two years ago. In the intervening period we had a DS, and when they found out the begging letters and contact started. I (perhaps stupidly) offered to send news and photographs of him, and said over time if things remained civil we could perhaps build a relationship. MIL didn't even respond (and given she has said in the past GC don't interest her I should have seen that coming), FIL barely and SIL/MIL's sister decided predictably to use the opportunity to tell me what they thought of DH and I, to which I told them basically to cease and desist. I feel awful for undermining NC, DH has stuck firmly to it and I've supported him. I suppose I still at times struggle with it all, as I come from a very loving and functional family and for that I feel immense guilt.

I don't want my son exposed to the things his father has gone through. These include: regularly wishing him dead, often calling him up to shout at him because a friend's son had done something nice for their mother - where was her treat?, wishing our children would be disabled, telling lies about us to the whole family, banging on our windows and screaming and swearing through our letterbox, turning up in public places to shout/physically manhandle us and following us in cars. A small drop in the ocean but these are just a few examples.

Two things are bothering me - I've been very measured in any dealings with them but I am so, so angry at the injustice of it all. Why did I even give them a chance? I thought just maybe they could start afresh. Why did I think that?

Secondly, what do I do if/when they show up? What can the police actually do? Thanks, and to you all, merry functional christmas

Fog - i would have probably handled the day with minimal contact as you said, but now that i have actually gone nc i am feel loathe to get into contact just for the wedding. And not actually sure if it would help the wedding anyway. I feel that nothing would be good enough. Maybe the next thing would be, ok i know she is talking to us both again, but i still can't go to the wedding cos i know she doesn't mean it and that upsets me! Then i would have given in to the emotional blackmail for nothing.

Bedtime- it's horrid isn't it. I read what you wrote the other day about your family dynamics. I'm the oldest of 3 and did much of the daily care and nurturing when db and ds were little. Mum put me in a position where i was more of a mum than she was and then used this against me and hated me for it. I am 9 years older than ds and seven more than db. The only reason why i didn't cut contact at the time was, like you, my siblings still lived at home, and i wasnt prepared to lose them

Oh, Milly, I think I should have said, I wouldn't necessarily recommend you did what I did.

My situation is different - NC is very much not spoken of, and my dad doesn't give a shit, so isn't upsetting the apple cart (that I know of - my siblings are rightly not telling me what has been said to them).

All families are different, even when they have similar elements.

I thought just maybe they could start afresh. Why did I think that?

Hi Cloggal. Don't beat yourself up about this. We all want functional families. We all want parents who care. And we all fall into that trap of 'maybe they will be normal this time...' it's a normal thing to hope for. I think Hissy talks about hoovering - how you can get sucked back in before you know it. Part of the reason this happens is that we all sit there, just wanting to be little kids who are loved by their parents. That's the default setting.

As to what to do if they show up, yes, call the police. If they are being rowdy, threatening or abusive, the absolutely call the police. The police will, at the very least, move them on.

cloggal I echo Fog's comment, don't beat yourself up for falling for it, even those of us who are direct children of these kinds of people have this relentless and idiotic hope that they will change one day.

Atilla's the Hoovering Consultant, and yes while it's a distinct technique of theirs, it's also our vain and blind hope that in the direct opposite to everything we have ever experienced, one day they will become the parents we dream they could be.

I too advocate calling the police 999 if you are in direct risk, or 101 if it's a non-live situation.

Thanks fog and hissy. I have had great advice from Atilla during previous wobbles, will read her on hoovering :)

I even stupidly thought that they might just behave for the sake of their grandson. But they're not remotely interested, all the while telling anyone who will listen how 'devastated' they are and how not seeing him is 'agonising'. People contacting us constantly telling us how upset they are, when I've offered a lifeline. It's all bollocks.

Sigh. It was foolish.

Thanks for the police advice. I don't think they would be violent, but they would be aggressive and have physically manhandled DH in public.

Hissy, I've just seen your situation on the previous thread and your description of your poor DS's reaction made me cry, I hope he is doing well now.

I even stupidly thought that they might just behave for the sake of their grandson.

In my very limited experience, the grandchildren don't factor in this unless they can be used in some way. As a weapon, ideally.

The fucked up relationship is between them and their child. That is the one, single, obsessive relationship. So the child's children don't have a part in that. I mean literally; my Dad didn't know what my daughter was called for the first 12 weeks. He doesn't know them (though asks for pictures). He didn't care when my daughter was critically ill. This isn't me putting blocks up; he didn't bother for years before I went NC.

In his world view, there is me, who should be the obedient daughter, on account of him being a father, and anything that I have is irrelevant.

If my children suddenly have something he could use, he'd be interested. He's interested to brag about their achievement, as if he had some hand in that, but other than that, they're outside the scope of his world view.

I suspect when they're old enough for him to write to, he'll do that, and state how this was all my fault, and how he really, really loves them, but it will be empty words.

You're so right fog. When DH and I met, it was clear I was a threat - not in the traditional 'no one is good enough for my son' way, but she made it clear that she did not like there being anyone else in her child's life (and when we got engaged, she wailed 'I didn't expect my children to ever get married'). She still refers to herself as DH's 'family' to the exclusion of his wife and son.

Your dad sounds very like her - I'm so sorry because I've seen how hard it is for the children of these people.

Thanks chick, DS is OK now, we have lots to distract us thankfully!

I'm so bloody angry though, i keep seeing his little yellow face, and him shaking...

Only when his dad kicked off at me once (the 1st and last time he did) was when I see him in that state before.

I have reassured him that none of this is normal, and that we don't ever have to have contact with them ever again. I have sent one of the gifts back, will send the one that my sister sent back to the seller, and tell them to refund it back to her, and I will ebay the main present from DM in the new year.

Poor thing, I remember that when we ran upstairs and were looking in his room for bits and bobs to do while holed up there, he kept saying, 'I know I shouldn't say this, but I wish they would just die' :(

I've got therapy tonight, have actually written notes! I have to get my head straight and make some headway.