"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hissy - love the festive name change! Your last post sounds much stronger and sounds like you have a plan with regards to gifts etc. well done and hope the counselling goes well.

I have just come back from work and i have been stewing about my brothers wedding situation all day! I am so upset/ angry, prob mostly with my dad but also at my brother for bringing this back to me. He is always the one to advocate 'tough love' so why is didn't he challenge dad? Because as much as i love him my brother is not as emotionally intelligent as he thinks he is and is falling for the water works and pity party. Rationally thats harsh cos this time last year i would be exactly the same.

I don't want to fall out with my brother but have so many things i wish i could say. Part of me wants to list all the things they have done to us over the years, including dad who was just vile to my bro when he was a kid. To say i'm sorry that you think i should have sent them a christmas card cos it was basic good manners but our parents abused us throughout our chilldhood and into adulthood and whilst it is bad manners not to send a xmas card, it is also pretty bad manners to be child abusers! And to stamp my feet and say all the ways it has affected me: anorexia when younger, depression, anxiety, counselling and antidepressants, self esteem issues, etc. part of me wants to match dads tears with my own... Perhaps i should have told my brother every time i was in tears over dads rejection, or that by blaming me i was in tears 3 days before christmas! To ask him why he doesnt follow his own advice, and tell dad to man up and grow a pair cos i tried all possible options to stay in touch and dad turned them all down. And remind him in recent years my dad has been in tears over almost everything, unless he is getting his own way. And to say, fuck you too - if you can't see things for what they really are then maybe i don't need you in my life either and i don't even want to go to your stupid fucking wedding now anyway!!! I have supported my brother through some horrendous times and what has my dad done for him? The child/ narc in me wants to demand he chooses: either i go or my parents go!

But i won't because i don't really want to be angry at my brother and don't want to fall out with him. I love him and i want him to be happy on his wedding day... And i want to be there to see it! But i don't know how to fix this or move on... I know both of us are feeling angry, hurt, betrayed and let down... Who's right? Who cares! If it came down to it i would pull out so that my dad could go, but i don't want to do that, and am not so certain that my dad wouldn't find another reason to mope about.

Sorry for the large rant, but feel perhaps it might help to get some of it out! God, i sound awful don't i?

And still there is that tiny little voice in my head saying perhaps i AM wrong. I can be angry and defensive and when in a temper i say some truly awful things that i don't mean. I always said that it is so obvious that my mum is poison because she has fallen out with everyone we know at some point and has no friends... Yet i have no friends either, i have one broken marriage and can be rude and demanding with my dh, and i am now falling out with my mum, dad and now db...

Hugs, Milly. I wish I knew something that would help. I'm so sorry.

No Milly, you don't sound awful.

Write it all down, shout it all out when your on your own, vent it. I do the setting them all damned fucking straight when i'm driving home sometimes! It's dark, no-one sees me.
I used to rehearse all conversations with my abusive ex, so that I could imagine all crazy arsed reactions i'd have to contend with, and practice dealing with them.

Then i'd practice other conversations with people, it helped me overcome my agoraphobia.

Nowadays I can talk without preparation! :)

You can't expect your db to be in the same space/place as you, he's not on your journey. One day he may find his way, but if you don't follow the path you're on, he's not likely to ever find it.

You can only live the life that's yours, you owe the best to yourself first and foremost.

In other news, my secret santa turned up today, we really needed that! DS is delighted! I feel so honoured, will be nominating like a nutter next year, pay it forward an all that!

You don't sound awful milly and you're not wr

wrong either!

silly phone

All your feelings are understandable and justified. Keep posting and typing out how you feel if it helps.

Someone talked about anger before. I find myself driven to absolute fury by DS sometimes. It's the usual 5 year old stuff; hurting his little sister or hitting me or (sometimes) spitting. I don't smack (although I have before, in sheer rage. I try not to and mostly manage that as I disagree with it on all levels; it's just an expression of my anger and solves nothing).
But today, he was being so horrible and then defiant and kicking DD and I went through the 1, 2, 3 business and he just pushed it and pushed it and he ended up in time out but then started kicking the door really hard (it's a rented house and I worry he'll smash a hole in the door). I just lost it and went in and started screaming at him, right in his face. He fell over backwards and it just all felt out of control and mental. Then I feel like a monster.
I apologised to him later and told him I was wrong to shout and I loved him, but this rage....I worry there's something wrong with me. Is this something from my childhood (I witnessed DV between my parents) or am I just the world's shittest mother?

No, you're not the worlds worst mum. Think anyone who's read your threads can say that straight off.

I do think that you need to get a bit of a handle on it though. It's a warning sign that something somewhere needs to change. Either the way you handle the rage when it rises, or in some way handling him.

Is there anyone you trust you can go to for advice who is experienced as a parent/child specialist and understands how people act when they are stressed? It sounds like you need a bit of outside input and advice atm and strategies for dealing with the frustration of a 5 year old. Can you also talk it over iwth your DH?

One thing that is very good is that you apologised. That has got to mean something to your son.

No, there's nobody I could talk to about it. My anger at him frightens me at these moments, I don't know why I blow up like this. I have How to Talk so kids will listen, I will try reading that again.
It's like he can't stop pushing and pushing me until there's an explosion, which worries me too. I don't see him much Monday to Thursday and I worry that it's attention seeking, any reaction is better than none, but we do nice stuff and are together from Friday lunch to Monday morning.

Goodtobetter I understand so much. My model of how to parent is all wrong. My parents would shout and smack all the time. I find if I'm feeling low or tired I can revert to this method all too easily. It's the only way I knew growing up. I snap and then after I feel so awful I despise myself, I feel guilty and I often sob and cry from the guilt and fear that I'm mimicking my own childhood. After I went on ADs it changed how I parented massively. I've gone on courses, I've read books etc but to find a new way to parent is one massive learning curve I find. I still make mistakes but they're lessening these days. My trigger points continue to be stress, tiredness or depression, so I watch for these.

We'll never be our parents. But the guilt is excruciating and the desire to get it right is huge. My parents never apologised but I do when I get it wrong and so do you.

Massive ((hugs)) to you tonight. Try and do something special tomorrow with them. It's a new day.

I have smacked him before but I don't use it now as
a) I don't agree with it on any level
b) I'm scared I'd really hurt him. God, what an awful thing to say.

I do my best to ignore and do a calm time out, but sometimes all my buttons are pushed in the right/wrong combination and I go nuclear.

I do always apologise and tell him i was wrong to be rough or shout and that I love him...but I need to stop that explosion of anger of mine.

I was smacked, although I don't particularly remember it. I did witness DV, but only on a couple of occasions.

The guilt is terrible too, but you're right. Tomorrow is a new day. I will try to read up more on anger management, because it doesn't matter why, it matters that I control it. I am the adult.

Thanks Meerka and Baubles. xx

In some ways I feel I parent better as I've rarely smacked but yelling can be as bad. If not more so. It's a minefield. So so hard. I bet right now you're so cross with yourself.

I follow orange rhino on fb and love her blog. On loving more, yelling less. Try that for your NY resolution.

Do you think you maybe depressed? When I used to completely loose it, I had depression but it was undiagnosed

He's always seen "No" as a challenge, even when tiny we used to comment on it, that saying "No" to him was like a red rag to a bull. DD on the other hand, if you tell her "No", she often cries.
But me screaming and scaring the crap out of him isn't the answer. I feel like a monster.
I have seen the orange rhino, will look for it again. I follow AhaParenting which is a bit schmaltzy but the basic premise is parenting with love and I try to put that into practice.
What helped me not smack was to see MY smack as like a tantrum. It made it seem pathetic. I need to see my reaction as just that, a ridiculous tantrum. I am the adult and I need to reign it in.
I do try and not sweat the small stuff, it's the kicking, hurting others, spitting, "fuck you" type defiance that enrages me.
I'm not depressed. Stressed sometimes, but not depressed. But that's no excuse. I need to woman up.

They know how to push our buttons don't they? And you're right, we're the adults here. It's up to us to try and rise above and stay calm and teach them how to behave. It's so hard. Please try and go to bed tonight without continuing to feel guilty. Go in, kiss him, pray if you do (I do) and as we've said start again tomorrow. Get an early night if you can.

I'm currently reading this book It's pretty good. Making a big difference here already and I'm only two chapters in.

Thanks Baubles. I always go and tuck him in and remember how little he is and how I love him. I've been on the Orange Rhino blog and it's great. I'm going to try and do the next 3 days without yelling, using her tips and ideas. I feel better already.
Thank you. xx

My DS used to do this, play up, until I lost it, and then cry and get cuddles.

He'd make any other more placatory approaches totally redundant and push and push until he got a reaction.

In the end I would tell him that he can have cuddles without creating the drama, and that I don't like shouting at him and it upsets me to do so.

I said to him that if he was in need of attention, a cuddle, reassurance etc that he can always come and tell me and we'd work it out, but the pushing buttons has to stop.

It's a 5 thing. He'll get past it. My son did it and now he doesn't.

Remember that he's witnessed your DM throwing HER toys out of her pram to create attention too, so it could be relevant. Her ignoring him and golden childing your DD may be to blame here too.

As you are calm and firm with her, be the same with him, remove yourself from him if you find yourself losing it. Time out, sent to room or shut out in the garden (DS still talks about that one time when I put him outside the back door and told him to stay there until he cooled down, it worked)*

*don't worry, it wasn't raining/cold and he could see me through the glass!

Thanks, Hissy I'm glad to hear it's a 5 yo thing. I suppose my DM's childish behaviour could have had an effect, although DS has always been her golden child rather than DD, so that's not at play.
I think it's a bad cycle of reactions and behaviour that DS and I have got into. He doesn't do it so much with DH and I've felt for a while that I don't see him much Mon to Thurs and then seem to spend all Fri to Su screaming or telling him off.
Good news is I've been reading up on the Orange Rhino No Yelling Challenge and it is now ten to five and I have no yelled once .
I've been explaining to DS that I don't want to shout at him, but that he needs to do what I ask him the first time he's asked.
He gets a point for doing that and I get a point for not shouting. So far we both have 2 points. He had a point removed for being horrible to DD but I didn't shout so I kept my point. Then he wo it back by apologising and giving her a kiss.
We are now watching Chugginton in front of the gas fire while DD naps.
My plan is not to shout at all for at least 3 days, to give it enough time to become a new habit iyswim. OR is very good on strategies.

That's great

Oh yes, HE'S the golden child. Sorry, mixed myself up Then her histrionics may have influenced a little,

It's the job of our children to push the boundaries, boys do so in a different way to girls.

Hi everyone, not posted on here for a while but always lurking, goodtobetter - sounds like you are doing a fab thing there with ds, very positive & love the way you have a little system of points going on together, may have to try that one when my dd is a bit older (only 2.5) : )

So tomorrow is my FIRST EVER Christmas WITHOUT DM for the whole 32 years of my life!! On the one hand it's a big relief - no feeling like a disappointment in every way, scrutinised & criticised, being made to feel that I've never spent enough money on presents like my well off brother & like my cousins do for their parents... generally no stressy tight chested feeling & spending all day thinking I would actually be enjoying myself if I was elsewhere far away from her and wow what would that be like?! Also regretting exposing my beautiful dd to it all & wishing we could just have a lovely chilled out happy Christmas day like most families.

So why do I actually resent that we're going to DH's parents tomorrow, for the first time in 10 years of being together? Is it just the FOG?

I feel like I won't actually miss her tomorrow & relieved I won't have all her usual crap to deal with, but also feel irrationally annoyed that we are spending the day with DH's family & not mine?! I feel like such a weirdo.

The last week has been full of bickering with my DM, asking me exactly how much £ I have spent on each member of my side of the family, it's never enough or as much as she does, and why haven't I done a family portrait photo for my xmas cards like my cousin has, and why do I cosset my dd so much, I will turn her into a brat & oh her hair looks so fine & straggley like yours did / still does, you must get her hair cut...

She is a nightmare, but I do love her, that is so confusing. Also going through a bad patch with DH, I love him but find him hard to live with, he has anxiety / sleeping problems & imo elements of depression. Feel like everything is always chaos with our 2.5 year old DD which is fine with me as it's just her age, but DH seems unable to cope with it all, yelling at the car seat because the straps were twisted earlier, not realising he was also yelling in DD's face. Sometimes I want to leave him. Feel like, "is this it" now for the rest of our lives together?! Maybe that's why I don't want to spend tomorrow with his family...

Oh yes & DM has told me many times over the last few weeks how this year Christmas will be pointless, she nearly didn't even bother buying a tree, because I am going to DH's family (I did give her a year's warning!). Apparently even though she is spending it with my brother & his family she will be miserable, and it is not really Christmas if she doesn't have everyone come to her house for dinner. Reminded her we have all been out for xmas lunch at a restaurant the past 4 years because she found having everyone to her house too exhausting & stressful! Haha, merry Christmas everyone xxxx

Children misbehave, we all have bad days. Sorry to hear of your troubles goodtobetter, typical 5yo behaviour imo but sometimes the tantrums can get to the best of us. I have shouted before, too much so, we have all been there it doesn't make you a bad parent or anyway near like your parents! Infact i think children of toxics probably do a better job of parenting as they know what a bad childhood is actually like x

It's Christmas eve & so far so good, no unexpected visitors at my door (il) phew!! . But dh has had missed calls today, and one is from fil
I'm so, so glad he didn't answer it as normally fil only calls to scare dh ie the normal "look what you are doing to your mother, she doesn't deserve this. Shout shout, threat, threat"
Told him either phone off tomorrow, airaplane mode or we switch phones.
He has nodded so i'm hoping he follows it through!

Tomorrow the landline goes off, my blinds stay closed as i will not allow any of them to ruin our christmas!

Infact i think children of toxics probably do a better job of parenting as they know what a bad childhood is actually like I hope so .. I hope so ... I hang onto this hope and try to do just about everythign different myself

The fear that you'll repeat the same patterns is debilitating

Had a better day today - not as upset about my brother's wedding and trying to focus on Christmas cheer instead. Got nice day planned tomorrow: walk dogs, quiet lunch with dh then evening with inlaws.
There's not much i can do re talking to my brother until after xmas so might as well enjoy it.

My parents will be home alone tomorrow and i know they will hate it. They love to moan about how nobody cares. My brother is spending tomorrow with his girlfriends parents, my sisters doing the same and i live the other side of the country so never see them on xmas day anyway, but i always phone... Well not this year!

No doubt my dad will be moaning about how he is all alone and he doesn't understand why all his kids seem to hate him, after all they never did anything wrong! I have gone NC, and my sister went VERY low contact at around the same time, only going round 3 times in last 7 months when she needed something, and they still have no idea why/ denying all knowledge. Is it mean of me to be glad that they will be sat together in their own private pity party?

The kids are in bed and I haven't shouted once today!

Thank you thank you thank you for recommending the Orange Rhino blog.

We've done the stockings and I will shortly be eating Father Christmas' chocolate doughnut and drinking his wee dram of caramel vodka. Leaving DH to take a bite out of the reindeers' carrots .

And I don't live with my mother anymore! Hooray!!!! Best Christmas ever!

Well done goodtobetter - have a lovely Christmas!