"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

So sorry I thought it was your sister who called you. But re-reading your post I misunderstood. Don't ring your Mum.

Although I'm a fine one to talk, I always want to justify myself and fix things.

Hester, don't call your mum, let her call you. She seems to be constantly shifting the blame onto you and she may be doing this because she can't/won't face up to the fact that she was in the wrong, not you. It's like she doesn't want to have to dent her own pride and lose face. If she phones up and starts a tirade about you, just tell her that you aren't going to speak to her until she can talk without accusing you of this/that/the other etc. Then put the phone down every time until she gets the message. Oh, and you're under NO obligation to tell her anything about your IVF. It's your life and your news and you are 100% entitled to tell her diddly-squat if you want. Your IVF treatment is none of her business, but I assume you mum would beg to differ on that.

You don't have to talk to anyone who accuses you of things you haven't done. It's hard to talk to someone who makes you feel like you don't matter. I've been in and still am in that boat ATM, with my family. The difference is that YOU DO MATTER because you deserve respect, not abuse of any sort from anyone. We have taken so much crap from our families that we sometimes can't see past the next tirade. The thing is, we care too much about what they think of us, and when we have been abused like we have, we end up believing that we are as bad as they make us out to be.

I really hope you come back with some fab news that the IVF has worked . I'm certainly not giving up hope that one day you'll be a mum.

Thanks so much for the encouragement ladies. I really appreciate it. I hope I can help you as much as you all have helped me

Hi everyone, I have lurked for a while and would like to join in.

I am in the process of trying to extricate myself from the fog of my family and it is hard going. My dad is emotionally abusive to my mum ( although she absolutely refuses to see it and worships the ground he walks on) and has behaved very badly to me in the past also. My mum is very emotional, needy and makes everything about her. So growing up I had no emotional support. My dad had a bad childhood, and prides himself on not being emotional which he equates with weakness. My mum cannot ever listen to any sort of problem without making it all about how hard it is for her. I am always just left ignored or blamed for any feelings I might try to share, and it has really fucked me up as an adult.

I am a year out of an abusive marriage to a partner very similar to my dad, but while I have done well with getting myself free of that it is so much harder to free myself from my parents.I have tried to set boundaries 're my dad's behaviour, nasty comments and being rude to my new partner, so now he doesn't really talk to me. He sits on the computer when I come round.

Every time I make a decision my mum asks endless questions, needs multiple explanations and phones daily for weeks worrying about whatever it is. I told her this was unfair and wasn't being supportive, now she sends me long emails instead describing how I am wrong to be upset with my dad and how she is so hurt and upset by me.

It was my dad's birthday this week so we are going for dinner tonight. My partner is dreading it since the last time we went round my dad was spectacularly rude to him in front of a roomful of people. The whole room went silent, it was that bad.I am dreading it because if I call them on any bad behaviour it ends up in an enormous row (this happened a few months ago and I haven't dared since).

They really have no idea that they are doing anything wrong- my mum sees her behaviour as being a concerned parent, my dad thinks I am touchy and unpleasant and hate him for no reason and my mum blames me for being unwilling to carry on just pretending to be fine to keep the peace. I am going to end up having to massively reduce contact since they are not going to change. Right now they are great grandparents to my 2 year old but I am not going to let them damage her as they did me. My dad already shouts at her if she cries for 'making a stupid fuss'. :-( I am so upset about the whole thing though, it is like a horrible grieving process, with every new crappy bit of behaviour or realisation I am grieving the parents I should have had. I honestly thought they were good parents and that I really was the problem until the fog started to lift a year ago.

Sorry, that's long! Can I please have a small pep talk ahead of dinner tonight to not put up with any crap?

Presumably you maintain any contact with them at all out of the fantasy you hold on some level that they will eventually say sorry we have always behaved appallingly towards you. That will never happen.

I would not at all attend tonight's dinner; tell them you're sick. Make some excuse.

Do not walk into that lion's den; they will eat you alive, ignore your partner again along with your Dad will probably have a go at your child as well. You will again freeze in his presence if he starts on your man (likely given last time) and you will be unable to say anything.

Put yourself and your own family unit now and first for a change. You need to protect your child from such malign influences. Some grandparents really should not be allowed access to their grandchildren. Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents and such people will damage your child if you maintain contact. You cannot and must not let that happen to your DD. If they cannot or will not behave and they clearly cannot and won't then you go NC with them.

Your boundaries re them are a bit better than they were but they are still set woefully too low. Apart from not going tonight you need to start blocking your mother's seemingly incessant e-mails; you do not have to read them at all. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; your dad is the dominator in his house and your mother is certainly his willing enabler in all this who acts also out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. She's just as bad as he is.

You had a rotten, abusive and emotionally neglected childhood as well and yet you do not behave in the abusive ways they do so them both having abusive childhoods (no surprise there) is really no excuse for how they have behaved and still do. Emotionally well adjusted people do not behave in the ways they have.

You are still very much in FOG with regards to the two of them that is very clear. I would also suggest counselling for yourself regarding this; you need to find a counsellor that has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. BACP may be of help to you as would be reading the resources at the start of this thread.

Your mum and dad both failed you as a child and now they continue to fail you as an adult.

You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, toxic family members like your parents are no different.

I agree with Atilla (as I do mostly) :)

Your parents are not great grandparents.

How could they be, they were shit parents!

Please don't allow your dad space to shout at a 2yo.

You didn't have anyone to protect you growing up, no-one stopped their abuse of you.

Your children have you. Make it count.

MovinOn, I've no particular advice to offer other than that which has been said already. Other than, I hear ya! The endless worrying thing especially from your mum sounds very familiar indeed, and it's hard to explain to others because they simply see it as you being ungrateful for her concern. "Come on, she's just concerned for you" etc. I would hazard that it's another aspect of controlling, guilt inducing behaviour, in the guise of her being a natural loving parent, with no possible conception that there is another way to do things. If I embark on anything out of mother's experience/comfort zone, she will regularly contact me with "evidence" that it will go wrong somehow. E.g setting up our business (which involved big financial commitment and moving somewhere new, she sent me newspaper cuttings about how many startup businesses fail and getting a mortgage with Help To Buy, she has been ringing with her worries that the move will fall through, interest rates will unmanageably rise and so on. When DSis was 19 she went off to Africa and saved the world, and mother was constantly telling her she wouldn't sleep til she was home again. Sound familiar?

It's not you, it's her. It's hard to pull back, because of the guilt though x

Hello all.
Ive found it really hard to post on this thread. Perhaps im more comfortable in denial.

Really fed up today though. I feel as though i have really been trying with my parents since i last went NC.
Things seemed to be going ok. Although, their arguements infront of me and my dc are becoming more frequent, and more often than not i am expected to take sides to give strength to the arguement. Which of course i dont want to do, nor do i expect to be put in that position.

My DM has recently been diagnosed with incurable cancer, and because of this i was pleased that i had gone back to being in contact with them. I really struggled with the NC.

Only im getting quite sick and tired of it all.
They want me to watch their dog all of the time (i have started saying no), they begun expecting it of me. I get guilt trips if i dont. "Ohh your sis has diabetes and isnt well - your (other) sis is at work all of the time and theres not enough hours in the day".
They forget my busy life.

Today i went round and they continued what they were doing, having me take the dog into this room and that room. I made my own cup of tea and tried to initiate conversation. Which tends to just get swung into what the other has done wrong and if i agree with their side.

My sister comes and everything stops. They make her a cuppa and sit down and have a happy conversation with her. Wtf. Why?

How do i deal with this? Im going to cut back contact, but i know thats going to bring a lot of guilt.considering my mams illness. My dad has been telling me how much my mam has been being nasty to him (she is the nasty one - my dad just tries to cope with her. Although he still treats me different to sis), so he has been quite depressed.
I feel guilty for cutting back when i know they are both feeling the way they are. But i really cant take.much more.

Sorry for the length. I think i needed a good rant

wontletmesignin,

Denial is a powerful force but being in that state will not help you at all really. It just gives you a false sense of control.

I saw your other thread; you are truly the scapegoat for their inherent ills.

It is NOT your fault they are like this.

And as for guilt, guilt is truly a useless emotion. Sod guilt and tell it to take a long hike off a short pier. Do you think your parents feel any guilt or remorse, of course not. They never feel guilt and their responses towards you as seen in your other thread are typical toxic parent type responses. They are abusive and inadequate as human beings, it is in their interests to keep you in the hole and assigned role they have for you. People from dysfunctional families like your birth family often play out roles. You can break free of it but it will be a long and hard road. Keep posting here too.

I realise that your mother is ill but that does not change her into becoming a nicer person towards you, she has fundamentally not changed in character and neither has your Dad. These people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Your Dad has also played a role in your birth family's dysfunction as well.
I would not let your Dad off the hook; narcissistic, toxic women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them and that is a role he has played out to perfection here. Such inherently weak men are bystanders who act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Your Dad made a choice here and he chose her over his children who have been damaged as a result of their toxic behaviours. He failed you abjectly as a child and continues to do so now. I would have nothing to do with him either.

If they cannot behave they get to see none of you; your children are likely to be confused, angry and bewildered by their grandparents outbursts towards you. Some parents really should not be allowed access to their grandchildren and your parents certainly fall into that category. All you are to them is a dog sitter.

Yes i told my dad he was her enabler when i confronted them, and how he was just as bad for staying.

I know my best option would be to cut contact completely. I also know guilt is nothing but a shit. Unfortunately i dont think i can go without contact, or the guilt.
I have a few books on their way to help with assertiveness. I am also going to start the freedom programme due to my ex. So hopefully all of these things help me grow in strength in order to make them listen.

I had a little bit of hope after my dm's diagnosis (sounds awful, i know), but she was forced to stop drinking and so i hoped the nasty her would vanish.
It seemed to go away, but now watching the way she speaks to my df is just disgusting.
It is really bad, to the point i said something to her the other day telling her how nasty she was being. I just got told i didnt understand...

They brought the dog around the other day and there were lines all around my living room carpet from where he must have walked around allowing wee to dribble out. My dad said "that cant be off him" trying to claim it was my kids...they had nothing that could have done that, nor were they walking around. I told him it was the dog, he said "come on we better go now. You better clean that up straight away wontletme"

So im left to clean up their dogs piss off of my carpet whilst trying to stop my kids walking in it.
While they swan away all moody, as if i had done something wrong!

I really need to cut down to as little as possible contact because it is just too much

Thank you so much for replying. You are right about the kids.
I dont know why i keep allowing these things to happen.

I need to act now. My dd already talks to me like shit as everyone else seems to get away with it so she feels it is ok.

You just end up in a 'lets play, lets pretend' kind of game. Where you pretend everyone is fine and getting along well, when really you are feeling like shit, and they are deliberately going out of their way to make you feel like that.
Yet you continue to allow it as you have been programmed to accept it.
It is so hard when it is your parents as you have this want,a want for them to parent you. Even when an adult as they didnt do it when you were a child. You still crave it. But never get it. So keeo trying, and allowing them to treat you like shit. It is a cycle that they always win and you always lose.

A pointless game that has no ending.

Oh my fucking God.

The one family member that I thought kind of gave half a shite has just left my house.

She told me about my Dad and some of the BS he has been telling her about me.

I am going through an EXTREMELY difficult time at the moment.

At my lowest points, my family always manage to give me an extra kick when I'm already down.

Today this has been my kick.

Please someone tell my why I shouldn't phone my father tonight and ask him why the fuck he is spreading shite about me to try and make it look like he gives a fuck and that 'I'm' the problem.

I don't usually swear this often. I am livid. Please someone help!

Balloon don't ring him. It's pointless and you may get off the phone feeling even more angry. He'd either deny it or use it as a way in to criticise you for other perceived slights. Step out of the drama triangle he's trying to create.

I'm not as succinct as others on here and I often post and run these days but do not call him. Just rant here instead.

Sorry green red.

No idea why I said balloon. I'm so tired, that doesn't help.

Dont call him. Pp is right, he will just find a way to twist it around to make you feel even worse again.

I know it is hard. But try and let it go over your head.

I am sorry you are having a difficult time at the moment. I hope today is a better day for you

I hope tomorrow is a better day for you, i meant!

Movingon I hope you're ok. If he is awful please get up, gather your dignity together and leave the dinner.

My Dad used to say such awful things to my son in particular like 'you're just like your father' in an angry way, after we'd separated and he once whalloped him on his back for a perceived wrong. I no longer see him. I've seen him twice briefly in almost 2 years now. He was 2 at the time, doing normal toddler things!

I avoid family gatherings now and I feel happier and more peaceful for it. So do my kids. It used to affect me for days after and make me more grumpy to be around. Overall the whole thing was unsettling for them.

I had to reach the tipping point before I went NC. I hope you find the strength to do so soon too. I'm so glad I did.

Talkinginthedark - really great advice for Movingon x

Sigh. Is this normal? Is it normal to be so misunderstood / have things so twisted by my 'family?'

Well it's not normal, but for toxic families it is

Mine can twist most things I say or do. Their perception of me is completely warped.

No. Its not normal. It is something, i myself cant understand. As i imagine the majority on this thread have also struggled to understand, probably still are!

I do know you need to concentrate on yourself. Limit contact if need be.

For you two, are you cut off from all of your family?

My family are so dysfunctional but there are always some who are at least a little bit in contact. Now that this family member has made it so clear that her main point of contact is my dad and she's clearly believed the BS he is saying about me, I feel like I have to go NC with ALL of them. Now I feel a bit like she's judging me and that she only feels obligated to help me but that ultimately, she doesn't really believe me at all about anything I tell her. I'm worried (or paranoid) now that she's actually just 'helping' to have a nosy- you know those types? I felt before that she was an ally and that her husband was the dickhead but now I'm wondering if her motives for helping me out are good ones and if the things she's relaying about me are at all accurate or positive.

greenred don't call.

Don't ring him, that'll reward him for all his efforts. It'll also mean that he got your relative too.

Don't react. Ever.

Just never have anything to do with him again.

It really is that simple.

He has just ended your relationship.

Put your emotions to one side, your hurt to one side, don't think about how you think about it. Just make the clinical decision you know you have to.

We're here to pick up the pieces, you'll be fine.

I see my Mum occasionally, she comes here but always brings up my Dad and how sad he is apparently not to see me now.

I stop her in her tracks, if she does anything similar to my upbringing to the kids. I've found my backbone and don't freeze anymore. She's learnt. She was the enabler though really. But is a believer in the 1970's school of discipline. Which I'm not.

One of my brothers is pretty special to me and I go to his sometimes but he lives far away but he was the scapegoat before he left for Uni and I became it. He's 10 years older than me. He also rarely sees my parents.

I have 3 other brothers but I can't remember when I last saw them tbh. I avoid family get togethers as they all seem to gang up on me and start recounting how awful I was as a kid, how I could parent better now, their thoughts on my kids etc. Everytime! Not to mention my Dad flying off the handle at me or my children.

I don't ring my Mum or Dad and Mum texts when she wants to come but it has blown up in my face before when I didn't reply for awhile.

It's not ideal but it works for me. Everyone is different and their situation though.