"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Was it to you dizzy that I said about his anger being a reaction to what's happened to him, not something that's in him naturally?

Have you spoken to him about that? About his anger being justified and something he'd feel so much better for allowing it out (in controlled, supportive environment)?

Read through this thread, and the others and you'll see that we all have a rage in this situation, and as soon as we allow ourselves the kindness of acknowledging our right to that anger, and explore the things we are angry at, that the anger begins to lose it's pressure/intensity, and we stop being afraid of our feelings.

He has a process to go through to recover from this. No matter what effort he puts in, it will be rewarded within himself. The more he does, the faster and better he'll heal.

Oh gosh just when i think ive seen the back of mil i gets a missed phonecall to my landline at 6:45am on my dd birthday and dh gets a text too with the insincere ramblings of "i know you are busy son, i don't know if you are getting any of my messages but please text me or phone me to let me know you are okay , love & miss you all. Left a message on your landline for dd"

More like she wants to cause trouble, not a true worry for her son

sweety, please change your numbers? (((HUG)))

Thanks Hissy
Wish i could, the landline is with our sky contract which is in dh name, as is his mobile & he is unwilling to change either/ i don't think he is ready. Because we aren't actually married i can't phone up & do it for him

If it's something I can do it's something I'll help him with. It's it something we can do at home or would we need professional help for it? And yes, he has said before how he hates his parents for making him like them. He sees them in himself when acting out and hates it. Awareness is the first step at least, he's already doing a lot better than his parents ever did.

Awareness is the first and biggest step. But not the final one.

Professional help? not necessarily. I think you need to discuss it together and if the point cmes where one or both of you feel you can't handle the patterns that have been laid in him on their own (eg if it's getting worse or if it impacts on the way you handle and resolve conflict) then ask for help.

Having said that, it can be very helpful to get skilled help with a counsellor / therapist. Sorry, fence sitting a bit! Would suggest talking it over with him and seeing what he thinks.

Hi, I'm new. I've been following this thread since I went NC with my parents 13 months ago. In the past I've been
NC with them for 4 years after the birth of my first DC.

My parents are 'never wrong' and passive aggressive. As a teenager, if we had an argument the reasons for the argument was never discussed and there was no attempt to make amends: my parents just wouldn't speak to me for some days until, I guess, they had 'forgiven me'.

My first episode of NC happened when I was pregnant with DC1. They made no enquiries about my pregnancy, didn't send any presents or offered to buy anything for the baby. When I pulled them up on it, I was in the wrong, they were 'hurt', and apart from some email contact we had no contact for four years. They sent me an apology email but it was very fake, ie 'we're sorry you feel hurt, here's our justifications for our behaviour".

The most recent NC happened because my parents and aunt had put my DC to bed when we were staying at their house. DP and I noticed that DD age 2 had been put not in her cot but in an adult bed, it was dangerous as she could get caught in between beds, or wonder out of the room which opened onto the top of the stairs. DP and I weren't upset, we just tried to tell then not to put DD in an adult bed, but my drunk parents started shouting at us, saying we were drunk (we weren't) calling DD 'a problem' who wouldn't sleep in a cot. Then they didn't speak to is for the remaining 3 days of our stay. We couldn't leave as we were visiting my home country. Afterwards they sent over some left-behind Xmas presents, I sent them a thank you text, they didn't reply. So in a way I suppose they went NC with me!

I really don't mind being NC. When I was in contact with my parents, in between both episodes of NC, they were crap GP anyway. They would come and visit, but would not want to go for walks or play with the kids. They just wanted to go out for meals, drink too much, and talk about themselves. That's not to say it hasn't affected me. Apart from DP I only have one RL friend, and without any extended family I feel very lonely.

I've found this thread very useful in terms of understanding their behaviour and feeling like I'm not alone having weird, crazy DPs.

They sent me an apology email but it was very fake, ie 'we're sorry you feel hurt, here's our justifications for our behaviour".

This resonates with me a lot. An apology like this accepts no responsibility by the person issuing it - when it's worded like that, it's as though it's your fault for being so daft/sensitive as to take their behaviour the "wrong way".

My mother and I went out for a meal when I was about 21. For some reason she got a bee in her bonnet about the amount I was deliberating over my choice of wine (it wasn't unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination). She shouted at me, a grown adult, in a public place. For almost the first time, I stood up to her and said "Do not shout at me like that in public ever again." After a while, she said "I'm sorry you thought I shouted at you."

It's not an apology. It's an excuse.

hello ladies. Having a bad day today. Was thinking about my late beloved MIL and how she used to visit us twice a week, and us her the same. She really opened my eyes as to how uninterested in our kids my family are. My own mum and dad say they don't like to interfere in our lives, but there's a difference between interfering and being totally uninterested and I guess my family are the latter. On the plus side, I've been offered a place at a university about 90 miles away from where we're living now, so I'm debating whether to tell my family.

On one hand I feel that I should tell them, but on the other, I am lead to believe that they aren't interested in us, so maybe I should just move and then tell them when we have settled. DH reckons that if they wanted to hear about how the kids are, they would have picked up the phone and given us a ring. One thing I have found is that my mum will ring her sisters 4-5 times a year. That's 4-5 times more than they ring and ask about their own GC's. I'm actually thinking of moving and not telling my family that I've moved.

A friend had asked about my inheritance. I just shrugged and told her that I wasn't going to be any worse off anyway, so what difference does it really make. None, as far as I'm concerned. Sorry about the rant ladies, I'm feeling a angry, frustrated and sorry for my DC that their GP's don't seem to give a stuff about them. Maybe my late beloved MIL was right, it's possible that if my family were keen to know how our DC were, they would have done the decent thing and phoned.

I just made the mistake of checking MIL's fb - absolutely stupid of me I know. She'd deleted me and I'd clicked on her name to unblock her - not sure if it can be done without clicking on a person's name, I should have thought to try rather than going the easy route of just clicking on her name. I just didn't expect to see anything, instead saw a big status of her's on there, talking about how absolutely hurt she was by "some one close to her", how she'd never been so hurt in all her life, after "all she'd done for him", and how he's lost her now. It makes me feel pretty sick, because I know behind it all she believes it with no inkling or suspicions at all of how it might be in any way be her fault. She believes absolutely that it is all her son, that he is as evil as she says and that she is the complete victim. Some of the things he said were hurtful, that's true. I'm not surprised she's hurt and feels the way she does. But could she not at least look inside herself and wonder, really question the way she's behaved and whether there's any truth or justification to her son's anger (rhetorical question, she won't).

I feel sick. And I can only wonder how much longer this NC will go on for, when the abusive phone calls and texts will start. I'm honestly surprised she's not contacted me yet calling me all sorts and telling me how I've ruined her son. We're 8 weeks pregnant, after the 12 week scan DH plans to send her a letter letting her know (he's decided it's the right thing to do. We'll also be sending SIL1 £50 for her child - the same as we did with SIL2 - also because he believes it's the right thing to do). What drama and excitement waits us then I wonder. Will she try to initiate contact or will she continue ignoring us? If they do resume contact I've now idea how on earth they're supposed to get over this and move on. I don't think she'll ever accept there's any truth to what he says, she will always be the victim and him the bad guy. Bad times ahead.

*block her, not unblock!

hester my parents have never apologised to me. In their minds, as they're never wrong there's no need. They will feel misunderstood which will make them feel 'hurt' or other people are wrong, which gives them a reason to ignore them. My crazy aunt will confirm this to them. She's their "yes-sayer".

My parents have never shown any consideration to my toughs or feelings, as to them they are irrelevant and if not in line with their thoughts and feelings, wrong.

DizzyKipper,

I would remove myself from FB completely; a lot of people do use it even though it is a bit passé these days. It is an ideal tool of manipulation for dysfunctional toxic family units like your DHs. These people never take any responsibility for their actions.

I would be extremely wary about sending anything like a letter as such can and is often used against the sender even though it can be worded as carefully as you like. I would not send any money either to the other SIL, she may have been turned against you both as well.

It is I understand a criminal offence to send abusive text messages (under the Telecommunications Act) so if MIL does send these, keep it and go to the Police.

Your DH seems mired in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt). Small wonder therefore that he is angry. He has good reason to be.

These people bring nothing at all positive into your lives; all you can do is keep your distance both emotionally and physically. Disengage and ignore any attempts at them contacting you because any contact from you will be seen by them as a reward. Then they will contact you even more. That behaviour is called hoovering.

Malicious, abusive or threatening calls, whether from people you know or from strangers, are a criminal offence.

If you receive such a call you should immediately call your phone company and ask for their nuisance or malicious calls team.

It doesn’t matter whether you know the caller’s identity or not.

Simply tell them what the caller said. In some cases, particularly if the caller is threatening, your phone company will advise you to call the police

Dizzy This is a situation where the 'right thing to do' is actually the wrong thing to do.

He needs some counselling/support etc to get him to see his way out of this

Chiggers I think moving and not telling them is perfectly ok tbh. It'll hurt more if you try and tell them and you're meet with indifference yet again.

Welcome to the new people. Fly by visit really but I just wanted to say my parents have never apologised in their life either.

Meerka's advice is spot on for dizzy.

Oh and Attilla's of course

The SIL definitely is turned against us, she's the one who got involved and is saying we're not allowed to even know when her son is born. I'm sceptical that sending her money will be construed as trying to "buy our way back in". I can see how he doesn't want to be the person who "didn't even let his mum know she was going to have another grandchild", but then I do think SIL2 will pass it on to his mum anyway so there's no need for us to directly tell her. He seems very certain that it's the right thing to do though so not sure there's anything I could say to make him change his mind, we may just be dealing with the fall-out from this one.

MIL had texted him again before he got home yesterday, telling him he should apologise to SIL and make things up with her (he already had apologised), he texted back, and later got 3 more texts from her, all talking about how devastated she is and how she can't believe what he's doing her, how his grandparents would be spinning in their gravers. I've told him about hoovering and told him not to let himself get sucked up, he's going to ignore her texts. I mentioned counselling but that's a no, so it looks like it's on me.

What would happen if I documented abusive texts with the police? Would they contact her? In truth I think I'm more worried than him. I'm worried that at some point in the future she may decide to go on a crusade over "grandparent rights" (ignoring the fact she's the one who's decided to cut us out). I'm especially worried about her fighting to get unsupervised access, I don't want her ever left alone with my children.

It always pisses me right off that we are the ones that get the texts that say 'make up or else'

Why isn't that woman sending texts to her dd?

Tell your H to completely disengage.

Better yet, to text back and say 'unless you are prepared to say the same things to dsis, stop sending me this shit, or i'll have nothing more to do with the lot of you, your choice' he needs to say to his DM that actually the GP would be spinning in their graves if they knew the crap she was sending him, how she was failing to support him, and how she's allowing and supporting a ridiculous stance against innocent parties.

Play the manipulative card right back.

Your H is being unfair to put all this, and huis recovery, on to you. You are not qualified and won't be able to help him heal from this.

As in the case of any unwelcome virus/infection, appropriate treatment needs to be sought by those trained to give it.

I'm just bemused how within 3 days the "you'll never be hearing from me again" has turned into 4 texts, with more no doubt to follow. I think it's better right now that we just don't feed the fire - surely there's only so long she can go on repeating the same things? DH had texted his mum back pointing out he'd already apologised, that it was his DS refusing contact with him, and that the ball was very much in her court and it was up to her whether or not they had anything more to do with each other (something MIL already knew, being the one to tell DH all of this, yet somehow had forgotten!). That's when MIL started back with how devastated she was etc. I'm still waiting for if/when I get my texts, I'm very much thinking about whether or not to go the police route and how much more the situation will explode if I do.

Again Dizzy this is hoovering on MILs part; she wants the last word as all toxic people do.

Do not engage at all in any discussions, any reply from either you or your man is what she wants. A reply is seen as a reward and such ensures that she will bother you even more. Your DHs error here was to text his mother in the first place, that's precisely what she wanted!!!.

Abusive texts/messages need to be brought to the attention of both the phone company and the police because the sender of same is breaking the law.

BTW grandparents as well have no automatic right to see their grandchildren so you do not have to worry on that front.

Having a massive wobble right now. Have just blocked U, and DP asked me to block both A and U for him, so I've done that. Is it normal that I feel a bit sick right now, I'm all shaky. There's a storm coming, I know there is. Time for a me thinks!

Yes sounds totally normal, well done for going through with it.

Thanks dizzy

I'm sorry about what you're going through atm, it really is awful. And yes, if you do get any nasty texts, do report them, easier said than done, I know.

Thanks wobblebeans, I figure we can at least both ride out the approaching storms together here.