"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Regarding feelign guilty, wobble - can you think of that emotion as being something separate to deal with? what I mean is, that your DH says it's not you and clearly your head believes it's them, not you. So it's just the feeling of guilt that tends to arrive when anyone rocks the boat, no matter how justified.

Is it possible to see it -just- as a feeling and to keep deciding to trust your husband and your head rather than your feelings, on this occasion?

Also I bet in 10 years' time you won't be feeling guilty any more!

It also sounds like you need to block them on FB. Seeing reminders isnt doing you any good at all.

I know it is the right thing to do long term, but everything's all kicking off now. My aunt (my dad and U's sister) asked my U what was wrong, and he said he'd call her this morning, so mine and DPs names are going to be dragged through the mud.

My dad also asked what was wrong, and U said he'd let him know when my dad gets back from work (near the end of feb)

The thing is though, my parents know the whole truth, so that should be interesting.

I know you're right meerka. This is going to get a lot harder before it gets easier though, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I just can't see it yet!

Thankyou! I think I'll need it

I know they are on our side, my mum will probably be a listening ear for us, telling us that it'll be ok, and that they believe us and the family aren't going to go against us as they won't let that happen.

My dad on the other hand...he is very protective over me and my dsis, if anyone upsets either of us (or my mum for that matter) then he doesn't stand for it. He tells it how it is, and has given my U an earful before now.

About two or three years back, we were on another family outing and it kicked off with A trying to dictate something or other, can't remember now, but DP told her to back off and stop trying to control what we do. My U then told DP to "not speak to her like that". It was all out of proportion and something I do when I'm incredibly angry and trying to keep it all in and not say anything, is cry, which I did.

My U then said something to me along the lines of "oh, are you not talking to me now?" So I just walked off. If I hadn't, I know I would have blown up at him, my temper is not a pretty thing. DP told me what happened next, as I wasn't there. Apparently my dad got extremely angry and basically told U to reign it in otherwise he'd know about it.

So, i know that if U and A try to drag our names down, he will have something to say about it. I feel sorry for my nan in all this though. She has no idea, and is usually the peacekeeper in all of it.

Think i've just gone no contact with my mother, why did i get into an argument with her, still reeling from the full force of a narc rage.

What happened, onboard?

onboard sorry I don't have anything really useful to say, I'm only really getting to grips about this stuff myself, but just letting you know you're not alone.

All these lovely ladies have brilliant advice and it definitely makes it easier to see things from a different perspective!

Well, a few months back she did something quite underhand to another elderly relative, she went back on a very important promise - she never had any intention of keeping it really, and I didn't say anything at the time but when she mentioned it again last night - somehow the words came out of my mouth that I didn't agree with what she'd done and before you know it - there's a full blown argument, why did I get into an argument when I know what she's like!

Because the point comes that some peoples' hypocritical world-view is so god-awful that most normal people rebel in the end, if it was something awful.

People who let anything go rather than rock the boat are doormats and sometimes go along with active destructiveness.

the rages - the Rages - are horrendous but standing up to them is part of breaking free of them.

Thank-you Meerka.

hope you're beginning to calm down onboard. The adrenaline and emotions you're left with after facing a Rage are exhausting ... when can and have calmed down enough, do somethign you find relaxing ..take some real time for yourself. It does help.

I just feel awful and a bit scared, no idea of what really. Time for a cuppa.

The fear you feel is irrational, that's why you can't pinpoint it.

You know you did the right thing, and you know she did the wrong thing, but the fear of god that this woman has drummed into you is kicking in as you feel you have 'displeased her' by standing up to her.

work through it by reminding yourself what you said and why.

I really empathise with the fear and guilt after a narc rage. Thinking of you.

I remember sitting in my room as a teenager crying and tearing at my hair after one of the rages. They're scary :(

Hi there,

Some one suggested this thread to me after I started a post about the fights my DH gets into with his family. I'm not sure whether or not I'm welcome when I'm not really talking about my own family.

I read the excerpts from the intro and so much of it resonates with MIL and the way she deals with things. They suggested to me getting my DH to read Toxic Parents but tbh I'm hesitant - he doesn't read anyway, even when he says he wants to he just never finds the time or motivation - and in spite of how I feel and what I think of his mum I've always tried to be cautious of putting ideas into his head, I just feel that the conclusions he comes to he should come to on his own without me telling him what the reality is. In truth I have a very poor view of his mum, often times I just feel I hate her and wish there could have been a way to have had DH as my husband and father to my kids without having her in my life as well. I don't say any of this though, generally I try to listen and let him have his say and hopefully be able to give words of wisdom every now and then.

At the moment MIL and SIL1 are going NC with us - this was their decision based on how "terrible" my DH has been. The most recent fight started with MIL trying to have a dig about his father's gf - telling DH she needed to "get a grip" and that she found all of her insecurities "funny". Apparently though this wasn't a dig and DH is really awful and just causing trouble when he says she was needlessly attacking the woman, MIL is completely innocent of course and just has a terrible "evil" son . SIL1 always follows suit of what her mum says and together they've decided to exclude us from their lives (which they threaten often, as some form of punishment). We won't even be allowed to know when our nephew is born, who's due in 2 weeks.

DH has said he's had enough and wants no more to do with them. I'm not sure how long it will last. DH has said things to MIL that he's never said before, including telling her she's physically and emotionally abused her kids, that she's poisonous, and that if he had to pick between his dad's gf and her he'd choose his dad's gf. Oh, and he also told her to burn in hell. As you might imagine she was livid. She might very well mean it when she told him she'll never see or speak to him again, or it could be a few months. Who knows.

My place in the family - in MIL's eyes (and SIL1's now too) I'm the one who brainwashed my husband, turned him against them and turned him into a horrible person. When he says things like SIL is neglecting her dog because she NEVER takes the poor dog out on a walk it has nothing to do with her and the way she's treating her pet, it's all to do with him having become really judgemental and nasty (since getting with me...). He used to be the golden boy but over time he has become the really judgemental, horrible one who just says things to start fights and creates issues. During fights she even asks him if I'm telling him what to say, everything always comes back to me and no doubt even after this fight it is all because he got with me and I brainwashed and poisoned him.
Personally I think it's because when he got with me he saw for the first time a family that didn't cause shit, that didn't constantly cause fights with one another and get in there with as many ad hominem attacks as possible to really get at and hurt one another - or who, shock, horror, when they had disagreements would have their say but also be willing to listen to the other person's point of view. They're not perfect, they're dysfunctional in their own ways (for instance, a member of my family could break a leg and it would be normal not to mention it to anyone), but they're not venomous. Getting with me probably did change him, changed the way he saw things, but it's not because I'm there "pulling the strings", making him be that way just to get at his family.

It's been 6 years now and it's enough.

I'm sorry for joining the tread and straight away talking about myself. I do mean to read through everything that's been said and get to know where you all are.

You're welcome, ofc you are.

It's a really hard thing to cut family out - so much easier to say than to do- but it really sounds like your husband has had enough and that you had enough a long time ago. Very sad not to know about your new nephew, but it sounds like it is the right thing for you two to cut contact. That argument sounded utterly horrendous.

Some of the difficulty of cutting contact even when it's what you both want is handling the change in previous ways of doing things. And giving up hope of things changing. But once you've done it and adjusted, while sadness can remain it's a gigantic, huge relief like a breath of fresh air.

Btw, they will be blaming you because they won't be able to cope with the idea that your husband, the Golden Boy, might actually have come to a conclusion on his own that isn't what they like. He can't possibly believe that they are in any way at fault, so ofc it's someone else's fault. If it wasn't you, it'd be the bloody dustbinman.

Just one note of caution: your husband sounds pretty sensible. But it can be possible that over time, elements of the behaviour he's been brought up to think up as normal will surface from deep within. It certainly doesn't happen all the time, but can sometimes. It might be somethign to very gently mention for him to be aware of, when you feel it's the right time.

toenail The police are there for a reason. if he shows up, call them.

When your mother is moved, then please just call it all a day? leave her to it and him too.

you have more than done your job

erm, i may have posted on the wrong thread

dizzy, you're very welcome here, I'm here because of my DPs family. You will get very good advice here. And I know all about the "brainwashing".

Apparently I've done it to DP

Dizzy what Meerka says is right : Btw, they will be blaming you because they won't be able to cope with the idea that your husband, the Golden Boy, might actually have come to a conclusion on his own that isn't what they like.

That, and if a grain of what he says is TRUE, that'd make them the horrible people they are terrified of admitting they are. They provoke others into being angry with them to justify their poor treatment them. They fuel the abuse, you react, that makes them able to point at you, convieniently forgetting that it was them that 'started' it in the first place.

Heaven forbid that they actually take responsibility for their own actions/thoughts/deeds!

Thankyou Meerka and Hissy.

There are already some ways the way he's been bought up are affecting him. He really struggles to deal with anger. He doesn't get physically aggressive but can be verbally so. It's something I've talked through with him a lot over the years and he is genuinely trying, and has made improvement. He still has a lot of work yet to go though, and family fights like the one he's just had don't help. I do sometimes wonder whether there's a phrase or something he can remember that will make him remember to just stop and breathe, distance himself from it, collect his thoughts and think rationally. So often he just seems to get pulled under and ends up ranting and reacting.

And here's to brainwashing Wobblebeans - because it's obviously so much fun .

a phrase like that is very helpful. So is something called Mindfulness training. Is it something that, when the moment is right, you can offer to help him with?

If you've been talking ot him for some years, he may be aware that repeating old patterns is a danger for many people from such bad families.

If it's something I can do it's something I'll help him with. It's it something we can do at home or would we need professional help for it? And yes, he has said before how he hates his parents for making him like them. He sees them in himself when acting out and hates it. Awareness is the first step at least, he's already doing a lot better than his parents ever did.