"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hester please keep talking on here. It doesn't matter how much you write, it's not tedious. We're listening. She sounds very toxic. Have you read Toxic Parents yet?

Agree with others Pumpkin. Block her.

Birdmomma I too was told I was lovely until 10. Dad even spoke about it at my wedding in his speech?!?! But then said I turned lovely in my 20's again. Sadly at that stage I was doing everything in my power to get along with him, no matter how unreasonable he was. I was desperate for his approval back then. I've realised now I'll never get it. Although Mum insists he loves me

some people's definition of love would make any other human being turn into a stunted shadow of a human being. But it's all ok because they love you really.

I find too that when i look at what happened objectively, it's hard to reconcile the objective incidents which were simply unacceptable, with the sense that everything was 'normal' and 'ok'. There's the subjective sense that I must have been loved, surely? with the whole not allowed downstairs, not allowed to use the phone, not allowed to speak. Weird trying to reconcile the two 'realities'

Hester

I would also encourage you to keep writing on here; none of what you have written was at all tedious.

BTW narcissists self hatred of themselves holds no bounds.

So the word "toxic" - what would a definition of that be? Causing misery to ones you "should" love? A relationship which should be loving is full of unease and fear? Because looking back, we were scared of her. Scared of her disapproval and anger. We would be at home after school doing what teenagers do i.e lounging around in front of the TV, snacking, phoning, you know normal, non-horrible things, and we would hear her car in the drive and we'd leap up and try to look like we were doing something which wouldn't cause her to get cross. However we were always lazy, idle, taking her foe granted. We generally failed, because these were always guesses and in truth we could never anticipate what would make her cross. I feel like I spent my young life walking on eggshells.

yeah I know that feeling, having to switch off the tv and run upstairs and pretend I'd never been down.

good question of what's toxic and what isnt. Not quite sure misery on its own qualifies, horrible as it is. Maybe, maybe not.

Suppose that something toxic has deep aftereffects that last for months or years afterwards, weakening you. In this situation, maybe a toxic parent / situation is one that leaves you with:

• a very long term and probably deep distorted view of your own worth (too little or conversely, too much, that youré worth more than others - though those people don't tend to come to threads like this!).

• Distorted views of how normal and healthy relationships go. Horrible knock of effects from that. Partnerships and normal friendships, both

• life-cramping levels of fear / guilt / anger

• expections that the world is a horrible, unsafe place so that you behave as if it is, and cut yourself off from normal fun things and people.

• Inability to know when to cut a bad relationship loose

Im sure there are lots more consequences of toxic parenting, those are the first that came to mind

Just my thoughts!

Card received from my DF. Thanking DS for his thank you card

I was considering another chance ironically on the day DM/SF kicked off.

The card made me think again.

However... he was hyper critical my entire life. nothing was ever good enough, I was too fat etc (actually wasn't btw, but never mind eh, let's not let truth get int he way of how to make your dd feel like shit about herself)

I've resolved that there's little point in second/third chances.

I've had enough, i'm tired. I deserve better.

Right?

hissy, in this case, with your family, Right.

You do deserve much better.

Maybe, maybe, if you want to in 10 years' time you could consider some limitted contact with your father ... if you want to. Knowing what he's like.

But with the amount of shit that's gone on, and with still getting clear of the appalling behaviour of the family generally (having to call the police was so recent), I think you need a looong break from any family in order to clear your head and to get your .. eh, how to put it ... you've broken free and now is the space of time for you to put your roots down safely and firmly wherever you want them, without super-critical or abusive family around.

After a long, long break maybe then. Maybe.

Thanks Meerka :)

Haven't had contact with dad for about a year now, and there was a gap before then. I did give a 2nd chance and then lost patience when excluded from possibly his last 'big' birthday. All my parents are in their 70s, or about to be.

As far as I know (pretty sure) he knows nothing about DM/sf/police thing, but looking at the whole recurrent exclusion thing, perhaps i'm hoping for too much when experience screams that i'm deluding myself.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a parent that would be there for me.

There isn't, is there? I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board a bit aren't i?

I know exactly what you mean. So many years without a supportive parent myself. It's a lonely place. Good friends help a lot but nothing really replaces the deep unspoken security of a good family whom you know will be there for you.

Dont' want to rub it in, but my sheer luck I have that now with MIL. But 30 years without was a long and lonely time, knowing that if the shit hits the fan you're on your own.

Sorry, not very cheerful there. But even so, that price of loneliness is better than having hateful people in your life who want to make it a misery.

Better lonely independence than life-destroying dependence.

My only chance now is to find someone with a nice parent.

So far zero luck on that score!

Unfortunately my DH's parents are emotional fuckwits as well.

My MIL is lovely but my FIL is a bit of a twat and not v nice in many ways, although he never dares to be anything other than polite to me.

Hester - Toxic Parents is a good book. I am reading it at the moment. You will have a better sense of whether your mother's behaviour is normal (no) after reading it I think.

Really? Because now I'm starting to think it wasn't that bad

This is all a bit of a headfuck.

I think I'll have to get a copy.

I thought it sounded pretty horrid reading your posts. If you're still affected by it all now, it must have had some lasting effects. But I know what you mean, now I am back in another country, I am replaying everything and wondering if I am just over-reacting and being too sensitive, or if it was actually me.

Meerka I wasn't allowed to speak to my mum for 30 minutes after she came home from work . Not even hello . I am solidly in the grieving process . Out of the Fog has been so useful .

Birdmomma Although my mum only had me because my dad wanted a child and I was so horrible I my mum only had one I changed on my 10th birthday into a horrible child ! I ruined my birthday by being in a strop . I don't remember it that way. I think I stayed horrible !

My brother asking me for sporadic details of a horrible court case I'm involved in- by text of course- so he can dish out uninformed, unhelpful advice. I texted him saying I could tell him all the details but only if he actually cares.

No reply.

GreenRed

Hope he does not bother you any more and ignore any further comments he makes particularly with regards to any court case.

Be careful; my understanding is that you cannot talk to anyone about this outside of court. You could potentially be held in contempt of court otherwise.

Have been quite sad over the weekend. Was trying to put my feelings into words and they came to me when I was watching some short videos of dogs being rescued from a life on the streets. It dawned on me that this was the perfect description, like a dog who has been abandoned by it's owner (my parents). I can imagine how my wee 1yo staffy feels. He was beaten, neglected and abandoned by his owner, yet for everything he has been through, he gives us nothing but love.

GreenRed, tell him nothing. It's none of his business and you could possibly get into a lot of trouble with the court if you disclose any details. Besides, can you really trust him not to say anything? If not, then a "It is something I'm not about to discuss any further", should suffice, and repeating it ad nauseum should get the message through that you're not going to talk about it, regardless of how many times he asks. If he's not happy, tough. I hope he leaves you alone.

Oh actually I am crying out for support from SOMEWHERE! I was seeking some support from him somehow but thought before I go to bother of giving him details that I might see if he cares. Question answered!

Today, I can safely say that I am feeling as though nobody in my life cares about me. Suppose it's just a surprise for me to realise that noone really does seem to care at all!

Right so DP has spoken to him mum tonight. I don't even know why I bother sometimes!

She said she doesn't know why she's spent so much money renting a cottage to come up in April now. She's pissed off that she's had to deal with this her whole life. Apparently DPs nan suggested that we all go out to the same pub for lunch one day, and that's when DP told her about the NC. DPs mum told him that A told her that she would be on her best behaviour and wouldn't say anything for that week, which is when DP cut in and said, yes but you know she'll be saying it all behind your back!

I know this isn't DPs mums fault. She's pissed off because she's had it her whole life and she knows exactly what A is like. But she's still her sister.

She also said that they were going to do a surprise birthday thing for DPs sister when they came up, which will now probably be off the cards.

DP told his mum that if she gets any grief about it to basically just tell her she doesn't want anything to do with it. She didn't really know what to say.

AAAAGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

DP is pissed off with the lot of them now, and I feel guilty as hell!!
I know DPs mum isn't annoyed with us, just the whole situation that we've been put in. She always says it would be easier if everyone just got along.

I wish it was that simple!!

Greenredblue - we care and we are listening. It's not the same but we are listening. Type some more, let it out if it helps you.

Wobble I hear you. If only life was that simple.

DP just keeps saying to me that's it's not my fault and I have nothing to feel guilty for. I'm sick of feeling like the bad guy in all this

Sorry I don't want to take up anyone's time, I'm just so bloody angry right now!

Now it turns out that DPs mum has told his nan about the NC, who has then gone and told A

My U is having a rant on the dreaded FB about how true colours have now been shown, being all cryptic about it all.

The one thing DP told his mum was not to say anything, so what does she go and do?!

He's doesn't feel like talking to her for a while, and is seriously considering cancelling his holiday from work in April.

He's extremely annoyed with his mum too, he says she knows what they're like and she still goes along with it, and makes us feel like the bad ones for making things awkward!!