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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

999 replies

DontstepontheBaubles · 18/12/2013 20:27

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.


Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting
OP posts:
Meerka · 23/01/2014 19:23

glad your husband and children are so level headed, really helps doesnt it!

birdmomma · 23/01/2014 19:26

Yes, god I love my lovely, normal, funny family I've managed to end up with. I think I am very lucky as from my reading so far, most people with parents like this are nowhere near as lucky.

birdmomma · 23/01/2014 20:00

Please can I describe the weird argument that happened on the 3rd to last day? His letter blamed me for it, and I can't quite convince myself that it was not my fault. I will try to be as honest as possible in describing it.

I had spent the morning driving him to his table tennis club and joining in with this. I didn't want to, but I could see it was important to him to introduce me there, so I did it, and it was fine. Playing table tennis with the over 50s was more fun than I had anticipated! Then we drove home via another errand he wanted me to run. We got home at lunch time. My partner and kids had been stuck home all morning as there is only one car. I grabbed a bite to eat and then suggested we went out again, as we had previously arranged we would visit a museum that afternoon. We actually wanted to go to an art gallery, but my Dad was not keen on this and wanted us to go to the stately home, so we went along with this.

At the stately home in the afternoon he was moody and brooding. We all recognised the signs, but didn't know what was wrong, so did that false jolly thing and hoped it would pass. We left the house at 4pm and walked back to the car past the cafe. My Dad pointed and said "Do you want to go there?" I looked. It was not appealing, very crowded with people spilling out the door, and looked like the sort of place that would have a few curling sandwiches and ice cream. It was not a meal time, so I said "no thanks" and walked on. He followed and caught up with me and just exploded with rage, shouting about how I KNEW he hadn't eaten all day, and I KNEW he wasn't supposed to get low blood sugar, and I was just so controlling, walking on and not caring what anyone else wanted. I was massively shocked and felt panicky. I said that I wasn't prepared to let him shout at me, and I would wait in the car (I may have raised my voice). He then screamed "fine, go to the car, you can all piss off. I'll get the bus home" I kept walking. My partner tried to mollify him and said he would eat with him, but my Dad shouted at him to piss off and leave him alone.

We were all in shock. We wondered around the deer park and tried to make sense of it. None of us had known he was hungry. I felt sick. We then waited in the car. we moved it to a place where he had to walk past it so he would see it, and waited. I sent him a text to say we were waiting. After an hour, my partner went to look for him. The cafe was closed and the grounds were deserted. We drove slowly down the road, checking the bus stops. Then we went home and waited with a feeling of dread. He would have to catch a bus to town and then walk, and then catch a bus out to his house in the country.

He stalked in 3 hours after he left us. He went straight to his bedroom and stayed there all night. The next morning, he was supposed to be coming to a hotel with us to meet other family. He ostentatiously cancelled his room on the phone so I would know he wasn't coming. We just left without discussing it with him. We didn't really speak again until we left, and the only thing he said to me was "stop being so controlling" as he pretended to hug me goodbye.

In his letter, he says that day epitomises my whole behaviour. I was self-obsessed, selfish and domineering. I left a defenceless and ill 74 year old in the cold with no way of getting home. This is what he will be telling everyone I did. Should I have handled it differently?

Meerka · 23/01/2014 21:09

bird, Im sorry, tried to draft a reply but the delightful nausea of pregnancy nausea has just kicked in, so ill keep it short;

it sounds like a massive overreaction by him, all that was needed was to say 'I need to eat and pretty soon, low blood sugar'. Something could certainly have been sorted then, I'm sure.

It does occur to me that one incident, however unreasonable, is just one incident. The whole thing needs to be seen in the context of the overall relationship over some years, and in the light of the letter you got afterwards which sounded very nasty.

Sorry, that's all i can write for now. Hope you're ok

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 23/01/2014 21:59

No you shouldn't have handled it differently.

What Meerka said.

These people have a way of making us feel like it's all our fault.

My Dad explodes like this, you can see he's starting to get a bit antsy and then boom. And somehow it's all my fault. Even though a normal person would have actually just said, I really need to eat something or similar. Somehow it's all you. And by walking home and catching buses he could make you feel even worse. Even though you waited for him in the car for a long time. It sounds like he deliberately took another route to avoid you waiting in the car and ignored his phone to punish you even more for not being a mind reader. So you'd sit there worrying.

It's hard to think about the fact he may speak about you badly to others when you did nothing wrong, and you can't defend yourself but you couldn't have handled it differently imo or much better. He'd have found something to explode at, if he's like my Dad.

Try to disengage and detach. It's the only way to be free of people like this.

Only now am I finally starting to realise it's not always my fault and I don't have to apologise to fix things.

Chiggers · 23/01/2014 22:11

Can I join in here? Having a rough time of it with my family and could do with someone to tell me what they see, as I'm feeling like I'm just not good enough to be in the family.

Here goes: OK, I moved to another part of the country which was roughly about 350 miles from my home town. I moved back to my home town with DH and DC and DMIL in tow and to be near my family. TBH, I feel like I've wasted nearly 7yrs of my life. Since we moved back, it feels like I'm just not good enough for my family. An example would be, DH and I asked my parents over for Xmas dinner 5/6 times before we got our dogs. I know mum isn't an animal lover at all and every time we asked, she'd reiterate that her and dad wouldn't be going to anyone's house for Xmas dinner. So that was fine as we knew that dad had trouble getting up the stairs. Well, lo and behold, I find out that they were going to my brother's house and his bathroom is UPSTAIRS. Another example (2nd of many, many of them over the years) is that my brothers and their OH's all go out into town regularly together as a 'family' thing. The only problem is that an old family friend and his OH go out with them, and I have been reliably informed by my cousin that they don't ask me out because they don't want me out with them as I make them uncomfortable coming from a housing estate (Oh yes, I'm scum because I live on an estate).

I feel that any invitations to parties are just done out of duty rather than because my family want me there. Even when I do go out with them, no-one talks to me if I try to talk to them, so I've come to the conclusion that I may as well not contact any of them.

I'm off to take the mutts out for a walk as I'm becoming more and more tearful just thinking about it. Will be back tomorrow after college.

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 23/01/2014 22:18

Oh Chiggers that's not normal and is horrible situation to be in. The rejection must be so painful and the clear favouritism with others in the family.

Please come back and post when you can. It's a safe place to post and others will be along when they can.

birdmomma · 23/01/2014 23:05

Hi Chiggers, that does sound really hurtful. Especially when you moved back to be near them. I don't feel I can give any advice as I am in a bad place with my family issues at the moment and not thinking straight.

MomeRaths, yes, he was brewing for a fight and it could have been anything. I wish I had noticed he didn't eat lunch, but I didn't. He usually gets himself something. He doesn't like my food as I am veggie and he only eats meat.

Thanks for your ongoing support. People on here seem to understand in a way no-one else ever really has.

HesterShaw · 23/01/2014 23:46

Am here and lurking since I first posted and trying to sort out my thoughts to get them in order on paper.

Birdmomma, have been reading your posts with interest. What a sad situation with your dad - I'm so sorry. Yes, people on here seem to understand, in a way that people in RL don't. I don't think other people have any kind of conception of how it can be. There's a lot of "Oh my mum can be like that," but she didn't push them away when they went for a cuddle when they were little, or tell them they were stupid and ridiculous when they tried to discuss things, or got things a bit wrong e.g. losing something.

Chiggers, that must feel like they are just casting aside all the effort you have made, and the love you are offering Flowers

birdmomma · 24/01/2014 02:08

It's hard to put it in writing isn't it Hester? There is so much you could say that you don't know which bits to pick to try and explain your situation. I feel the same about my first session of counselling next week.

pumpkinsweetie · 24/01/2014 14:13

One giant grrrrrrrr for today, fed up with a capital F of that old bag of a mil & her pathetic behaviour!!
She is now leaving voicemails on my phone too! One silent one at 10ish and another at 1pm in a miserable dull tone asking for me to ask dh to phone her with a sharp "please" at the end!

Well she can go kiss me arse as i have enough on my plate such as 5 children, school runs, laundry breeding like no tomorrow as it broke and new one turned up just today, a broken oven & a leaking hallway ceiling to deal with!!

Was looking forward to spending weekend with dh as a family of 7 for the first time since newbaby is here as i have had appointments & he has had work. If she puts him into a fog i don't know how i'm going to keep my mouth shut any longer & not give the cow the riot act once & for all!!

If an adult chooses to disengage surely a normal person would realise & leave that person be, but oh no a toxic person cannot do this, they just go on and on and on causing more damage!

She probably wants her mitts on our baby, that'll be what it's about, so she can pass her about like a parcel, like she did with my other dc...well not on my nelly , she can get herself a dollyConfused

Chiggers · 24/01/2014 16:17

Back again ladies. Missed bus to college this morning and on way down my older brother passed in the car. I thought he might have stopped and offered a lift since it was raining, but nope, not even a look sideways or even a toot of the horn Sad Not much of a surprise really. No contact from my parents or any of my brothers since last Friday. It's as if I didn't exist.

I had a bit of a drama today. My main lecturer was feeling unwell and lightheaded. For some reason, I saw it coming and asked 2 of the other classmates to help me get the lecturer onto the floor before she collapsed. We got her down and raised her legs but it took about 20mins for her to feel halfway back to normal. One of the ladies drove the lecturer home in her car (lecturer's car) and another of the classmates drove behind them so that she could bring the other classmate back to the college. They made sure the lecturer was home safe and lying down. One even collected the tutor's DD from school and took her home. Apparently we are going to be on the website for our heroics Confused We just did what any other decent people would do.

Chiggers · 24/01/2014 18:22

Oh Pumpkin, I'm sorry to hear you're having such a hard time with your MIL. What is it about toxic family and harassing others Angry I normally stand up for myself, but I just don't have the mental energy, so I just stay away from my parents. I was talking to my lovely aunt and she even said that she doesn't feel good enough to be visiting my parents, yet my mum was always bitching about her. My mum is usually nice to people and then whinges and bitches about perceived faults that they have.

One example that sticks in my mind was when I was young, single and free and was out with a few mates and their DP's. They were mainly male chums and we were all pretty musical types who went out for a few jars and went back to one mate's house for a jamming session. We were just playing our instruments until 5am and grabbed a couple of hrs kip before I went back home. My dad asked where I was and I told him about a good chilled jamming session, to which he replied "I bet you were having sex with them all. You're nothing but a slut" Angry Needless to say I flipped my lid, but calmly told him that "I think it's time I got out of this house for good" I went upstairs to my room, filled my bags with my belongings, rang my friend and asked if I could stay with her for a while. It wasn't a problem and she was fantastic about me staying.

I had never felt so good and what angers me is that my mum just stood there and agreed with him. Then she had the cheek to ring and ask me to apologise to my dad for angering him. I told her that it would be snowing in hell before I apologise as I wasn't the one in the wrong. She just put the phone down on me.

I know some will say that mum was probably afraid to disagree with my dad, but I told her that if DH spoke to our kids like dad spoke to me, I'd give him what for. All she said is that dad was waiting an apology. It angers me, but at the same time, it erodes my self esteem and confidence and undermines who I am IYSWIM. I hate being in this situation. I just want to be treated with some degree of respect and not be used as a fucking whipping boy. DH has had enough of my family.

Hissy · 24/01/2014 18:56

Pumpkin, why have you not blocked her? Why not change your number?

Say nothing just make sure she can't get to you.

Switch voicemail off too.

Take charge. Now that she's harassing you at home, you can take the decision to change the home numbers, and your mobile and DH too. Enough is enough.

If not now? When?

Chiggers · 24/01/2014 19:19

One thing you can do Pumpkin is to create a diary of the calls she makes (silent or otherwise) with the date, time and details of the call. Alongside that diary, can you enter every thing else that she does, so if you need to go to the police about her harassing you, then you have something to back you up.

HesterShaw · 24/01/2014 21:06

I'm going to try and write some down. I can't decide whether my mother was just an insecure depressive with problems and that she still is, or whether I am just intolerant and find her irritating and should forgive her now she is old and coping with my dad's dementia. I think about things and wonder whether it was that bad, or whether she was generally normal, and we have just demonised her. It's certainly nothing like the abuse some of you have been suffering, but at the same time, I can't ever remember being comfortable with her.

There are three of us - me, older brother, younger sister. My earliest memories are not of warmth and love but of shouting and unease - shouting at us, shouting at my dad. Once she was combing my hair in the bathroom. I must have been very little, because we were in our first house. Anyway I had tangly, curly hair and she was dragging a comb through it so hard, I was crying and screaming. The more I screamed, the louder she pulled, until the comb broke. Then she burst into tears and put her arms round me, saying "Sorry". Maybe it was PND after the birth of my sister, or stress and depression. She was hospitalised when I was about a year with depression.

I can never remember feeling at ease with her. There were always scenes - shouting, yelling, accusations of being horrible children, or stupid. Most of these, to be fair , were directed at my brother who was "a difficult" child. Who knows if he actually was or not? Intelligent, active...yes, he could be difficult. Show me a child who never is. There were good times e.g. holidays, but I don't ever remember her playing with us, or getting the impression we were anything other than a pest. Sitting on the sofa, I remember trying to snuggle up and put my head on her shoulder and she would shake me off and snap "Stop drooping on me." I have seen threads on MN where women are sick and tired of children crawling all over them. Maybe it was that. DB used to lead me astray and DSis was too young to be included, so it was mainly us who attracted her ire. I can remember her at a couple of meal times, having brought out food for herself, and DSis, and not bring any for us, and her glaring at us as though we were scum. I guess we had been playing up at the table or something that children do. Once DB and I were arguing while we were on a picnic in France, and they packed up the car and drove away and left us for what seemed like ages, but was probably only about ten minutes, to teach us a lesson I guess. I was hysterical and DB was trying to calm me down, saying we would be ok and we could live in the fields. If he was saying that kind of stuff, we must have been quite small. This teaching a lesson was a common theme. Once I misplaced my watch when I was washing up in the caravan. She didn't let up all week about it, saying how careless and stupid I was, and how little regard I had for possessions. It turns out I had taken it off while I was washing up, left it by an open window, and she had seen it and hidden, to teach me to care more about my possessions. She gave it back at the end of the week. It didn't even occur to me to be angry with her, I was just grateful to her! I must have been about 14 then.

She and my dad's relationship is utterly dysfunctional. I can't ever remember a time when she didn't appear to openly despise him, undermine him, run him down in public. As I grow older I realise how weak he always was, and how he has just put up with a shit marriage and any sympathy is kind of evaporating. He is very absent minded, which I have inherited to a certain degree - he is one of those clever, daft people, who lose things a lot. She appears to think this is a major character flaw. For over forty years she has been implying he is stupid, and he came to believe it. Her expectations of people are insane. I once heard her shouting at my brother for not knowing where Tristan da Cunha was, when he was about fifteen. WTAF? We were woken one night after they had been out, because he had left the immersion on and the water was boiling hot. He was stupid for forgetting it. I came home from university to do an essay once, and had to hurry to get the train back again, and left the essay behind by mistake. It all worked out fine, but the drama was ridiculous. She didn't speak to me for weeks because she "couldn't believe I had been so stupid".

Oh God there's so much, but I don't want to be tedious. Everything is about her. Everything. If someone is in a mood, i.e. they just happen to have got out of bed on the wrong side, there is a row, because it is automatically something she has done. She can't understand that something might be nothing to do with her. She treats other people's health issues she has been told about, as items of gossip. I can't express how distasteful I find that. She loves being confided in, loves it. But I was once off work with stress, and (this was while I was still trying to have a "normal" relationship with her), and I phoned to tell her I had been off with stress and she said "Oh God, you're always ill. What is it this time?" at which I put the phone down on her. She called back to find out what it was and she started to cry, saying she didn't want me to turn out like my brother. He has been mentally ill for years. He put us all through hell, after drug use and psychotic episodes and depression and a suicide attempt. It's only now I start really appreciating her probably role in all that, but she thinks it is simply her bad luck to be cursed with such a troublesome son. She definitely used to bully/abuse him, and my dad didn't do anything about it. I guess he tried to persuade himself that it wasn't too bad, and that some of it was probably his fault. She stamped on DB's his feet in heeled shoes, and once spat in his face. She told him again and again there was something wrong with him, that he wasn't normal.

It's not that we lacked for anything. I was a musical child and I had piano and flute lessons for years and got quite good. I was no trouble, academic, passed exams, did school work. So did DSis. DB was an underachiever, despite being so bright. She was very proud of me, in her own way. When I performed a concerto once, she was so proud, as she said she was when I passed exams with flying colours. She just never remembered that on a day to day basis. She wrote me a letter on my 18th birthday telling me how much they loved me and how proud they were of me. This is the kind of thing which confused me utterly. She was generous, once we'd grown up that is. Paid for us through university, help with house deposits and so on. But on the other hand, my dad once tried to buy me a hat I tried on in a shop which suited me, and she wouldn't let him, saying she had already bought my Christmas presents. He put it back as well, instead of telling her to fuck off! Weak. I never wanted children in case it turned me into a person like her. But then four years ago we decided we did, and ironically have fertility problems and we're doing IVF. I told her we were having it, and she said "Well now I know, I'll be very upset if you don't keep me updated about all of it." That wasn't why I told her. But she can be warm and funny and kind and generous. Most people think she is those things. She has good friends.

I already can't believe I've written this much, but there's so much more. So much. But I don't want to bore anyone. There are lots of people with bigger problems and worse families.

HesterShaw · 24/01/2014 21:06

Am quite embarrassed at writing so much. Sorry. I might ask for it to be deleted :(

GoodtoBetter · 24/01/2014 21:41

Don't you dare, Hester! We're listening...you get it out, we understand.

HesterShaw · 24/01/2014 21:56

Nowadays she is a different kind of tedious. She revels in her role of grandmother (DSis's children, and DB's daughter) and enjoys them adoring her, and being helpful. She has always says she likes small children, despite not appearing to like her own. She likes babies because they are cute and dependent. When a child gets to tantrumming age, not so much. DNeph was ill at Christmas and all he wanted was his mummy - it offended her that he didn't want her. She used to tell me quite often, and even a couple of times as an adult, that before I got to eight I was "such a nice little girl" and that as soon as I turned eight, I changed dramatically. In retrospect, this was just because as children get older they develop a personality.

Nowadays it's her martyr complex and negativity and passivity which is enraging. Everyone and everything in life is against her - her senile husband, the NHS, social services, the window cleaner, the roofer. Everything is too much trouble and she won't challenge herself e.g. booking a holiday and doing it is way outside her comfort zone. Clearly she's depressed but absolutely refuses to admit it, and anyone who suggests it is being ridiculous. She hoards. Her house is filthy and she won't clean it. I found FIVE bottles of unopened shower cleaner in her bathroom at Christmas. DSis and I blitzed the house, but didn't get a thank you, whereas when BIL cleaned the windows, she acted terribly grateful and bought him some beer. It's impossible. But we can't simply abandon her, because of DF's Alzheimer's. In my crueller moments, I think that she caused it, because she utterly broke him as a person.

HesterShaw · 24/01/2014 22:19

And finally, if she is ever confronted with the way she has behaved she'll snap out something like "Oh that's right, don't tell me, I was an awful mother, yeah yeah, you preferred your PRECIOUS father" and will maybe do a bit of crying. Tears are never far away. So then I end up feeling guilty and she gets off scot free.

I don't think she's a narc, as described on here and on the other websites. It seems like she hates herself, not loves herself. Her self esteem is terrible, but at the same time she seems to have this weird superiority complex.

Chiggers · 25/01/2014 05:11

Good morning ladies, I can't sleep as the mutts were whinging, so I have decided to come on here.

Hester, I don't suppose that it is in any way surprising that your DB has MH problems when we hear about the way he was verbally battered by your mum. I understand that not all MH issues are caused by a person's upbringing, but I would say it plays a large part in it. Take a look at what you have written and see it as if you were someone else giving advice. I see that the only consistent action your mum was doing was being verbally abusive to your DB. Being told you are stupid constantly, is enough to make even the most confident child become a troubled adult in some way or other. Turning to drugs/alcohol etc, is just a symptom of the problem(s).

I can understand why your DB is a mess mentally as my own mum used to tell me I was stupid and lazy educationally. The funny thing is, when I told my mum that I had passed all my subjects in the 1st year of the Access course, her face dropped and she gave me a "very good" in a sour/non-excited way IYSWIM. DH and my close friend were there and he said that it was clear that she was not too well pleased with my academic success so far. He told me that he thought she sounded almost angry that I dared to be smart and am now refusing to be the family whipping boy. My mum doesn't like my DH because he backs me up. My brothers and their OH's all agree with my mum, but DH doesn't. She can't stand it when people disagree with her. The difference between my DB's and me is that she is always negative about everything I do/say/wear etc, whereas, all my DB's get the 'golden boy' treatment. Just recently, I had gone to my youngest DB's DP's house for a 'get to met her parents' party and her parents were the only people to speak to me. Well, apart from mum asking why DH couldn't walk the dogs at 11pm. When I told her that he couldn't leave the house as the DC were in bed sleeping, she replied that he should wake the DC up and take them with him Angry. I simply told her that I would be going home to take the mutts out for their last walk, end of.

I am incredibly tired writing this so am going to get my head down for a couple of hours. I will be back and am hoping you all are taking good care of yourselves.

Hissy · 25/01/2014 08:29

Worried that my post to pumpkin may unintentionally come over as bossy. Didn't mean that.

I think actually, now MIL is disturbing you, despite your clear instructions in the past, you can take unilateral action and have her blocked regardless.

Mil is making it your problem. You have every right to resolve this, to protect yourself, your family, and your H. Maybe your H will find this approach easier? Blocks can always be lifted.

(((hug)))

pumpkinsweetie · 25/01/2014 09:01

Thankyou Hissy, i have an iphone so will look up how to do that and implement it.

And yes i do find it disturbing that she is now putting on me & very annoying should i have to change all 3 phone numbers as i have only just updated data forms for dc school & still having regular Hv contact so they need to be able to reach me.

The good news is, dh has succumed to the fog so farSmile

The bottom line is, if mil had something so inportant to tell dh she could divulge in the actual voicemail, but my reckoning is that she realises her grip is losing it's power so she is stepping up her game in hope i fall for it, and in turn dh feels more pressured.

pumpkinsweetie · 25/01/2014 09:02

*hasn't

birdmomma · 25/01/2014 09:33

I think about things and wonder whether it was that bad, or whether she was generally normal, and we have just demonised her - Hester I really identify with this feeling at the moment, as I also identified with many things in your post. I don't think you are demonising her at all. She sounds very unbalanced and toxic, and your childhood sounds very difficult, as does your adult relationship with your mother. My Dad always says I was lovely until I turned 10. Some parents just can't handle you developing into your own person.