"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Oh sorry, cross post, I see you've burned the letter.

< I take heart that I have been in a happy relationship for over 20 years and have many long term friendships, which I hope is a good sign >

Yes, an excellent one

If your partner and children were shocked at his twisting of things and want you to cut contact, then they clearly see the whole situation without the inevitable emotional jolt that you get.

It sounds a very clear cut situation.

No solution here is going to be ideal but no contact sounds the best. I'm sorry that he's been so hatefilled :/

Yes, my 17 year old said "I can't believe he's such a bad dad", and my cheery 13 year old simply said "he's bonkers, just never see him again". Bless them. They had such an awful time this Christmas. However I worry they will look back on their own childhoods and remember similar things. I worry that I may have twisted mine and only remember the bad things. I have lost my temper at the kids many times in their childhoods, and sometimes shouted etc.. and even sworn. I have tried really hard to be a different sort of parent than I had, and I think in the main I have, but maybe all they'll remember are the times I lost my temper? Do you ever worry you are just as bad as your own parents? I have booked to see a counsellor next week. I really want to make sure I rid myself of any parts of me that are like him.

Do you ever worry you are just as bad as your own parents?

Yes. Yes, I do. I won't know until he gets to 30 and if he's stable or not.

I can be fairly sure that I'm not as bad as one of my parents - actually, when Im able to keep my feet on the ground i know full well I'm not!- and I believe i'll be quite a bit better than the other. But I also know that unless I am careful and watch myself, I could become as bad as the first parent .... we were extremely similar at 18. I've undergone a lot of intense and challenging therapy and I'm very, very glad of it.

However, the fact that you worry and care about it is an excellent sign. And that you've maintained a 20 year partnership and friendships. Your father didnt manage the one and I wonder if he managed the other. I reckon maintaining some longer term friendships is one of the best signs of mental health there is. Sometimes there's reasons why it's not possible, but if it happens, its a good sign.

Can you talk to them honestly, and can they talk to you? I suspect they trust they can get attention from you over things they care about, which is something you might not have been ever able to do with your father.

twisting memories .. Yeah I have that too with one parent, not helped by there being no one except him and me for many years. I guess that all you can do is work on the here-and-now in the practicality of dealing with him, NC or low contact or whatever, and speak to the counsellor.

If you get a counsellor you don't click with don't hesitate to look for another. It's really important.

No, my Dad finds it hard to sustain relationships. He has one friend who is very like him, and they have a love/hate friendship. He is the most long term. Other than that, my Dad seems to surround himself with people who are intellectually and socially ... inferior to him (I hope that doesn't make me sound snobby, but I say it as a fact, it is very obvious). They tend to look up to him and listen to him, and he gets to help them out and give them advice. In this way he has a wide circle of adoring friends. They all seem quite new though, and change quite frequently. He can be very charming and many people love him. The church will be packed at his funeral.

He really sounds a classic narcissist or PPD (something I hesitate to give a name to over the internet, or at all actually, but this does sound classic). Charming. Vicious when things don't go his way. Only one friendship of equals and everyone else is someone he can feel himself 'superior' to. Inability to sustain partnerships.

I suspect that some of the people who are no longer in the adoring-friend categorie have a rather different view of him than the new ones.

Bet he was hell to work for.

Baby pumpkin is doing well, she is 2 weeks old now, it has gone just too fast
Very positive news is that, i was able to settle in my home with dd5 without having the il clan desend upon me like with all my other babies & the ils haven't turned up at my door or bought any gifts! Hurrah

At the moment trying to not check dhs phone as it will only stress me out, but he seems okay
Mil did try both phonenumbers saturday night, i wasn't impressed with my landline ringing at 10pm
Fgs she is still a bitch!!-the only night me & dh have quality time with eachother & newbaby & she does that !!!

Good going pumpkin now this weekend ALL phones OFF unless you want to use them.

Ok? You'd do it for anyone who was rude/stupid enough to call at 10pm, wouldn't you?

lovely to hear baby pumpkin is doing so well :) and that you've not been in-law invaded!

Me again.

Aww pumpkin, I'm glad baby pumpkin is doing well

So me and DP have been talking this week, and we've decided to go full NC with A, and even though it breaks my heart to write this, with my U as well. This isn't a decision we've made lightly.

We've told my mum this, and she agrees that yes it will be hard, but it's the only way to protect ourselves and our DC from this poison. I have told my dad yet, I know he will be supportive but it's so difficult, it is his DB.

I'm not worried about them as I know A won't say anything to them, she knows they don't put up with her crap!

DP is yet to tell his mum. This will be more difficult. She gets sucked in to all the drama as she will just go along with it for the sake of keeping the peace. I know A will probably go in all guns blazing with her when she realises what has happened.

I feel guilty for what we are going to put DPs mum through, none of this is her fault and I'm actually surprised at how she turned out to be a nice normal person with a mum and a sister like hers!

Once DP has informed his mum of the plan, A, my U, and their DC will be deleted and blocked. I'm dreading the fallout when it does happen. It will probably go nuclear, A will not let us go that easily and DPs nan will probably try guilt tripping DP and if that doesn't work, it'll be the 'telling off'.

I'm going to miss my U, how likely is it that he will eventually see what's going on?

I guess I need some sort of reassurance that we're doing he right thing, it feels so wrong!

wobble, your mum and dad think you are doing the right thing, your DP and you agree. Heck, even his dm understands, so who else do you need to support your decision?

A mad psycho-biddy and her lapdog?

Rationalise this, take it back to black and white. Remove all emotion.

What's the answer then?

That you are most definitely doing the right thing.

If all else fails, tell em Hissy told you to do it! :)

Xx

hissy thank you, I know you're right! It's so hard after all the years of being told by A and her mum that I'm the difficult one, to finally come to the realisation that that's not the case. Ffs I was 8 when my U and A met and got married.

Right from the start I felt like I was being pushed out of his life. As a teenager, I always noticed the nasty looks whenever it was there, again, I was being 'difficult' and not making an effort. I was quite shy as a teenager, and I wasn't about to make small talk wi someone who clearly didn't like me. How is it that my U has never noticed?!

It's amazing what a highly manipulative and clever person can achieve to normal, non-manipulative people. quiet conversations late at night before sleep over many years can influence normal people subtly but very deeply ... specially if the normal person begins to suspect deep down just how damn much trouble will come if they start to think and act differently from what their partner wants ...

Im sorry for the coming loss with your uncle, but if everyone else is understanding why you are going NC its probably the right decision. Maybe one day the scales will fall from his eyes

An 8yo can tell faster that someone dislikes them than an adult.

We adults dismiss these things.

When the FOG subsides a bit, you'll feel better. Hang onto that feeling and keep going.

After a sleepless night, with lots of anxiety, I woke up to the loveliest email from my best friend detailing every thing she likes about me and why I am a good person. It was just what I needed to hear. I've got a copy of toxic parents ordered on Amazon, and I'm feeling a bit stronger now. I feel a bit like I have gate crashed the thread with it all, so I'm going to take time now to read back what everyone else has gone through, so I can contribute in a more balanced way. Thanks for listening last night (different time zone so would have been morning I guess). It really helped.

I would love to know what crap she's fed him about me over the years.

My mum told me about one incident that she remembers from just before they got married, I can't remember it though. We all went out for a big family meal, I was sat next to my U and A was sat on the other side of him. Mum was across the table so she would have seen what was going on. U was talking to me, and A would place her hand on his arm and sort of bring his attention back to herself, apparently this happened every time he tried to talk to me.

I really hope he does figure it out at some point. He does talk to my mum and mentions things that he's not happy about. She asks him why he doesn't say something, he says it's for an easy life. She asked him who's easy life. He didn't have an answer.

Personally I'd rather have a happy life.

DP will be speaking to his mum at some point within the next week and then that's that. It won't be that easy though

birdmomma every single one of us 'crashes' the thread now and again.

It's not crashing, it's needing support! :)

Crash away! You need to, we all do!

bird what hissy says :)

wobble it sounds exactly like your aunt has manipulated him very skilfully and subtly. :(

It's better not to know what she's said. All that lies down that road is a great deal of anger and of hurt at 1) what she's said and 2) that he's believed it.

That website was really helpful . I felt the grief of my parents behavior like a physical hole yesterday and it really helped to read again that it is not me. It also acknowledges the mental damage they do as as people find it hard to believe which then makes you doubt your version of events .

Thanks. I have been browsing 'Out of the FOG' website today. My Dad exhibits exactly 50 out of the top 100 personality disorder traits. It was very illuminating, and has helped me to put his recent behaviour in context a bit. I haven't been able to settle to any normal activities. I am really thrown by his nasty letter.

it seems clear that there is no objective reality to what he puts in his letter. So keep that at the forefront of your mind.

Which leaves the sheer venom and hate of such a letter, the pure emotion and intent to hurt behind it. That is really hard to handle in itself, that someone you still can't help loving can be so hurtful.

The only way I can think of handling it is to emotionally disengage, as well as physically and practically. To step back mentally and see it as the lashing out of a man who's not had his own way and who is unable to cope with that.

It's just occured to me that if he's done this with you, there's a high chance he's taken this sort of vengeful hate-filled action against others who have crossed him, either at work or personal life. I suspect your father is a dangerously vindictive man? (could be wrong!).

can I suggest talking to your other half when you are feeling upset and hurt? over time, it does help you sort of accept it, at least to some degree.

Yes, he has had some very big fall outs with people in recent years. He won't have anything to do with his brother's wife, and is utterly venomous whenever he talks about, practically spitting as he talks about her if she comes up in conversation, just annihilating her on grounds of character, appearance "money grabbing bitch" etc. (She isn't)

He has fallen out with a business partner in the past 5 years and is the same when he talks about him. When his on/off relationship with the 17 year old who became his wife was going through a rocky patch about 10 years ago, and she was living in a rented house and seeing another man, he secretly bought the house in order to make her homeless and drive her back to him. He can be very manipulative. Very. he is also casually venomous about people on TV, pretty much always female presenters. He makes sudden comments about them that surprise me with their vicious nature "She's a fat cow, she shouldn't be on telly".

He tells lies very casually and without seeming to notice sometimes, forgetting that I know that they're a lie as he speaks to other people. During my last stay his behaviour sometimes chilled and shocked me. I think he has always been like this, but I didn't notice it as much, or maybe he hid the worst from me. Maybe he has become a little less guarded since his recent very serious seizures. (He was in intensive care for over a week). It makes me sick realising what an evil man he might be.

He has always tried to bait me into arguments. It used to be very successful when I was a teen, as I was very passionate about animals, equality and stuff, so he would deliberately make goady comments so i would argue the other side. He would then escalate the argument and start shouting and making personal comments. In recent years I have become wise to this and never respond, so this time he started doing it with my poor kids. It was horrible to watch them falling in to his traps. He made nasty comments about how people in Africa deserve to be poor when the charity adverts were on, and my poor 13 year old was trying to tie herself in knots to explain why that was unfair. As he uses all sorts of ridiculous and spurious arguments, and there is no logic, she didn't stand a chance, and she's not used to someone getting angry or personal during a debate. I intervened of course, so the venom landed on me.

was going through a rocky patch about 10 years ago, and she was living in a rented house and seeing another man, he secretly bought the house in order to make her homeless and drive her back to him. plus the other things you've written.

Maybe he has become a little less guarded since his recent very serious seizures..... It makes me sick realising what an evil man he might be.

I'm very sorry but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Don't say this in any way lightly. A destroyer of enjoyment and of people's freedom. It may be that you've only begun to see the 1/50th of it.

very, very hard to reassess someone who is so important in your life like this.

You won't be allowing your children near him again?

None of us will be going near him again. Luckily we live as far away as you can go before you start to come back on yourself. I wonder why?