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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

999 replies

DontstepontheBaubles · 18/12/2013 20:27

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.


Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting
OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/01/2014 18:49

I would reiterate this to you as well nearly ready:-

Your mother's already starting on you via your child and worse encouraging your child to keep secrets from you as her mother. Do not allow this to continue for your sake as well as your child's. If your mother cannot or will not behave then she gets to see neither of you.

Would you tolerate any of this from a friend?. Your mother is truly no different.

You will have more of the same - and worse - if you continue to allow your mother to have any sort of relationship with your child. She was and remains a crap mother to you and narcissistic grandparents really do make for being deplorable grandparents. What makes you also think that she is or will behave any better now that she is a grandparent?.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child.

Where you are falling down here is failing to recognise the narc's adaptability to changing circumstances. Small wonder too you have FOG in spades and I think it would certainly be beneficial for you to speak to a counsellor (given the caveats I wrote of before).

It is truly horrible to see a narcissist interact with their grandchild purely because there is no interaction. I can certainly attest to that fact with particular reference to my FIL!.

Hissy · 20/01/2014 18:54
nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 20/01/2014 19:22

I'm simply not strong enough to make changes or rock the boat at this point. I appreciate where you're all coming from but I feel like things have plateaued recently and they are amicable. It's not the relationship that either of us would choose (for different reasons!!) but for the time being it works ok. I'm finding it terribly hard to accept and believe my own accusations (ie that DM has narc tendencies) and at the moment just feel like I should be more charitable and kind, not always seek out the bad/annoying stuff, not for her benefit but for my own. I need to have somewhere to vent but the negativity gets me down. I am taking your advice on board, it's just not the right time for me to do anything about it. I have emotionally distanced myself from her a little over the past couple of years (which fucking hurts); whether that's noticeable to her or others I don't know but it's the most I can do right now.

It would hurt her if i bin The Shoes. It will hurt her if I don't go to lunch. As much as she's hurt me, I know a lot of it has been subconscious and is just "how she is". I cannot purposely hurt her (or anyone for that matter). I have an emotional shield up, doesn't mean I don't feel it but it offers cushioning and now I'm aware of the traits/behaviours/potential I already feel better prepared for whatever the future holds for our relationship, which makes me feel more in control, heartbroken though I am.

Perhaps I was less ready to post here than I thoughtSad.

HesterShaw · 20/01/2014 19:29

Hello I posted this morning. I'm still a bit unsure and afraid of someone seeing.

Nearly I think I get where you're coming from. You don't want to hurt her because despite the fact that she has hurt you all these years, you still suspect she might not have been doing it on purpose? I don't know of course. And there's always the residual guilt. It's all fine thinking about it all in your head, but once trying to put it into words, I'm all "Can it really have been that awful? No it can't have been - I'm exaggerating/wrong/misremembering."

redmapleleaves · 20/01/2014 19:36

nearlyready I'm new on here and don't know your story. However what (alongside great counselling, mumsnet and some great books) has really really helped me to get clarity on my family relationships and the depth of my denial has been keeping a diary. Reading back over past entries, now with somewhat greater insight, have helped me get distance on what I have put up with in the past, the depth of my distress, repeat readings of wise counsellors have said to me, again and again, and clearer boundaries. Do give it a try if you think it might be for you.

Hissy · 20/01/2014 19:58

nearly plateau-ing is just you managing the situation, doing what she wants, or within her limits.

At any time she can (and will) raise the bar.

Just bin the shoes (she won't know)

Get your H to call her and say that he's forgotten that you've arranged to do xyz. Let her blame him, and say for her to pass on your apologies to her cousins, and she'll catch them another time.

This is not boat rocking, it's pleasing yourself and protecting your loved ones.

Hissy · 20/01/2014 20:02

Your mother has not a single concern about when she hurts you, undermines you and uses your dd as a tool to hurt you.

She demands you attend a lunch then studiously ignores you and everyone in your family.

It's OK to not confront her. She woin't know if the shoes vanish. It's ok to give the lunch a miss (dicky tummy if you bottle out of saying no) it won't (really) hurt her.

She just uses that tool to get you to do what she wants, even (and especially) if she knows it bothers/upsets/hurts you.

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 20/01/2014 21:19

Whether she's done things on purpose is almost by the by; two wrongs won't make a right.

She's looking after dd tomorrow and knows the shoes are here. There is no simple explanation for getting rid of them without looking spiteful. I don't want to hurt her regardless of her intentions. I'm learning to pick my battles - this is not worth it.

Undecided about lunch. She invited us by text, I haven't replied and she didn't mention it when I saw her today. I can think of a couple of white lies but I wish I had a genuine reason so I didn't have to make anything up.

I had that Annie song in my head earlier "maybe far away or maybe real near by"... DH asked tonight what was that song I was singing earlier and I played it to him on YouTube and had a sob!!! Bloody preggo hormones!

Going to have some cake and a snuggle on the sofa now, got an early start tomorrow as have to go into the office for a change (usually work from home)... Wish me luck - haven't yet told them I'm pregnant and a bit worried about my big belly raising eyebrows, particularly as my office clothes are all a bit clingy!

Hissy · 20/01/2014 21:31

Love, stating boundaries and not allowing people to hurt us is not a 'wrong'

I get that the shoes can't be binned now, but you can sock them in a bag and put them away somewhere? Move them out of her reach, so she can't use them to get to you again?

What is it about them that you dislike so much? Can you say?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/01/2014 07:24

"It will hurt her if I don't go to lunch. As much as she's hurt me, I know a lot of it has been subconscious and is just "how she is". I cannot purposely hurt her (or anyone for that matter). I have an emotional shield up, doesn't mean I don't feel it but it offers cushioning and now I'm aware of the traits/behaviours/potential I already feel better prepared for whatever the future holds for our relationship, which makes me feel more in control, heartbroken though I am".

Oh Nearly ready,

I feel very sad for you actually and I would urge you to keep posting here.

"Just how she is" is actually similar to how my DH used to describe his brother, well until he emotionally hurt DH once too many times. I pulled him up on that comment before the solids hit the air con because that excused his shite behaviours towards him and by extension myself. I knew BIL was a narcissist long before DH did.

I have not and never will cover up for my narc BIL and will tell people openly that he is lying through his teeth.

She trained you really well didn't she, she did an awful lot of damage to you growing up and that is very much in evidence now. FOG indeed. You been taught to people please and not hurt others; she is using you for her own ends. She really does not give a toss either about you or your child and she's using different ways now via your child to get back at you. And she'll keep on at you and your DD as well, she will stop at nothing to hurt you and your child because you are but tools to be used.

You cannot manage someone like this either, plateauing as you are will just end up making you feel far worse.

I would also read up on co-dependency if you can because there could be elements of that here too.

I do not feel that you are anywhere near being in any sort of control of all this, she is very much leading you here.

The only way forward for you and your own family unit is to distance yourself completely from your mother.

None of this is about rocking the boat or supposedly upsetting your mother (such people are incapable of being upset believe you me, they can do angry though and I have seen that with my narc ILs) you are protecting your own self and your family unit from her if you distance yourself and impose boundaries which have been far too low through conditioning.

Hissy · 21/01/2014 07:36

Oh, the incapable of being upset! Yes that's so true!

They get irrationally affronted, but upset? No. You have to actually care to be upset.

I didn't agree to meet my DM once. She had given me no notice and when I said I was busy, her reply wasn't a normal, oh, that's a shame, next time then? (she lives hours away) it was "disappointed"

Nothing more, nothing less.

I confess to coming on here spluttering and ranting, cos she has no rights to be 'disappointed' not any more.

You are seeing the truth love, sadly you can't go back.

It's better to live in the truth, knowing that your dc aren't pawns, and are safe.

Ultimately you will have to review childcare, and you will have to dramatically reduce contact.

Start by stating your boundaries now, give her a chance to play by normal rules (although, sadly, she won't) it's worth trying, more as an exercise so you can prove it to yourself that you've done all you can,

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/01/2014 08:10

When initially finding my way through the ILs dysfunction I came across a site on NPD which I found very helpful at the timewww.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html. I post part of a link:-

"Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent -- this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance. They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you're too demanding. They can be positively fawning and solicitous as long as they're afraid of you, which is not most people's idea of a real fun relationship".

NotSuchASmugMarriedNow · 21/01/2014 09:48

Just saying hello for now ladies and reading all your stories. Hope to join in soon too

NewBeginningsSnoopy · 21/01/2014 11:52

Sorry just testing my new username

Meerka · 21/01/2014 20:52

just to hope that you get this resolved. Do hope it can get sorted fairly quick and you can get out to your lovely meadow!

Meerka · 21/01/2014 22:04

oh god. wrong thread. sorry

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 22/01/2014 07:16

Not going for lunch on Saturday, DM was fine about it. I'm still not convinced that I'm not just nit-picking. Attila's link was useful to an extent but DM really doesn't stack up to a lot of the things on there. I think she is emotionally damaged from her own experience of having a shit mum. The constant need for reassurance and attention, the fact that she's tried so desperately to be better than her mum to me yet hasn't got it right, to me shows that because she has no reference of what a mother-daughter relationship should be. Because her mum opted-out, she's tried to do the opposite and I end up feeling smothered, her mum never praised her or showed any joy in being a mother, so DM tries to do the opposite publicly and unfortunately shows her up as it being about her rather than about me. But let's face it, she never had anyone making her feel good about herself and was largely pushed to one side as a kid, so she does all she can at every opportunity to rave about herself and put herself back in the middle of everything. It's all compensation.

I know that doesn't make it right (and I suspect you'll think in making excuses for her and justifying her behaviour) and it isn't my role to take responsibility for all this. I do know that. I can see that as I've got older its why I can't let her be really close to me. I don't like it but I think I understand where some of it comes from. I'm dreadfully fearful of history repeating itself and on Attila's link I saw a lot of things that I'm guilty of myself which is scary.

There will be more altercations as t

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 22/01/2014 07:24

Oops pressed "done" too soon....

... as time goes on, I'm fairly sure of that! If the resulting impact is that it pushes me further away, I can live with that as I know it's the right thing to do for me, DH and DD (and DC2).

birdmomma · 22/01/2014 07:25

Hello

I see others have to build themselves up to posting here too. I don't know why I'm finding it so hard, but I am. I think it's too big to know where to start. Also I feel a bit embarrassed that I am so affected by my relationship with my parents (well, my Dad) and at my age I should have just moved on and be ok. Which mainly I am, but somehow this stuff just manages to follow me around the globe.

Some background: My mum left home when I was 3 years old. She left for another man, who was shortly after convicted for manslaughter and was imprisoned. She never came back, and contact with her was occasional and I remember her turning up late, taking me to bingo halls until the early hours and generally being quite flakey, although at the time I idolised her and was desperate to see her.

I was left with my dad. He has a very strong personality, and was setting up his own business at the time. He worked long hours, and from what I remember, he was often emotionally distant, and somewhat neglectful in my early childhood. I often stayed at the office with him until late, and went round in his car to building sites in the holidays. I remember him going out and leaving me home alone from when i was about 6 or 7. I used to get in the dog basket and hug the dog if I felt lonely. I didn't feel sad or neglected, it was all normal. I remember him being quite funny and involved at times. I think people thought he was amazing, a man doing all this on his own in the 70s. He sometimes got very angry, and his rages were very scary. I was desperate for his attention and sometimes made things up to get him to listen to me.

When I was 10, I was sent to boarding school. I didn't fit in that well, as I was from new money, and not as posh as most of the other girls. I don't have happy memories from boarding school. I missed home a lot and had a lot of worries. I often struggled to sleep at night. I had migraines every week that made me vomit, but these weren't diagnosed and staff and students thought I was trying to get out of a particular subject at school.

About this time, my relationship with my dad changed. I started to question him and answer back and have my own opinions. This caused a lot of problems and he could be very cutting, putting me down, ridiculing my opinions, and the rages increased and got worse. His rages were terrifying and often seemed to come out of nowhere. 5 minutes later he would be whistling and getting on with his normal business, whilst I was sobbing in my room. He never physically abused me, but he would say hurtful things and make me feel like a was a bad person and had behaved very badly. I guess I was the average slightly sulky teen, with angst etc, and quite strong left wing views which were opposite to his.

As my teens progressed, I very much wanted my father's approval, but found it harder and harder to get it. I was very financially dependent on him, because he used money to reward me and to patch over rows, and I got used to having it. This has been a pattern throughout my life, and I feel very ashamed of this.

Gradually I put more and more distance between us. I moved away to university, then to another part of the country and finally I emigrated. My Dad had always had very young girl friends after my mum left, and when I was 23, he started to see a 17 year old (he was 57 at the time). I found this very hard to stomach, and there were a series of hurtful events where he made it clear that I was no longer a priority. An instance of this is that she did not want me to visit the family home any more, as she did not like me, and he kind of went along with this. He continued to give occasional large financial gifts to me, and would have to admit that my life is very comfortable today because of these. If it had not been for this, I wonder if I would have been no contact a long time ago. I feel this makes me a very mercenary person.

At the time that I emigrated, my dad seemed happily married to this girl (now in her 20s) and had a small child and another on the way. i felt that I could move my family away with no regrets, as he had his own family and did not need me. Within a year of leaving, he had divorced, and started to become ill.

He has had a series of serious illnesses since I left, including bladder cancer, pancreatic cancer and seizures. At the moment, he appears to be cancer free, but as it was pancreatic, I think this is just a short reprieve. These days our relationship is very poor. He has visited here twice, and these visits have been marked by brooding bad moods, goading, rows and rages. In March, I went to look after him for a month whilst he had radical surgery for his pancreatic cancer. he was very difficult as usual, but I tried really hard to be non-argumentative, and just look after him, and it ended up with a successful visit, and he seemed to be happy with the way I had been. I had left my 2 children and my job, and it was a very hard time, but I was glad i had done it, and thought it might be a turning point.

The whole family went back to spend this Christmas with him. It was an unmitigated disaster. He was well, but he was extremely moody and difficult, and so controlling. The kids (both teens) found him unbearable. We ended up going out quite a lot to escape. I started to read on line because I found his behaviour so puzzling. I read a description of NPD, and I know it is a cliche, but it fits him like a glove. It was liberating, but also rather soul destroying.

The visit ended on a very bad note, with a classic narcissistic rage, which I did not pander to, so it escalated. His parting shot to me was "don't be such a control freak" whispered into my ear at the station after a day of not talking to me. I have come home and felt very emotionally damaged. Today I got a very poisonous letter from him, and have not stopped crying. He has retold the argument of the past 3 days in his own way and sees me as utterly evil. His parting line is "I used to be so proud of you, but not any more". I had vowed not to let him upset me any more when I worked out that he has narcissistic traits, but I can't stop feeling like it must be me. God I feel so sad about it all.

There's so much more I could tell you, but I don't know where to start. I am very scared of being like him. Sorry this is so long.

Meerka · 22/01/2014 08:21

oh birdmomma, im so sorry.

it sounds like he is, and from a certain point onwards when you asserted your own mind, a real control freak of his own.

People who are deeply messed up like this tend to get really upset if others don't play their game and tend to assign their own control-freak tendancies to the other person. It's also absolutely typical of some people that if you don't play their game, they call you evil and assign you all the names and all the badness under the sun.

That does hurt, especially when it's from someone that you can't help loving or whose approval you want. And its so easy to accept their view of you, instead of you knowing yourself who and what you are.

The best way I found of handling it (and maybe it won't suit you, but saying it just in case) is to think about his accusations carefully, work out what you think could be true (which can be painful), what is not, and what you simply don't know. Then if you can, ask a really good, feet-on-the-ground friend or perhaps two who knows you well for their views. It's not an easy conversation, it's hard, but the reality check gives you some perspective.

Also ask yourself how you would see it if a friend came to you and told you her father was doing the same to her. Distancing yourself a bit like that can really help you gain perspective too.

Writing down things you remember then reading them over 6 months later is if they belonged to a stranger also can be quite revealing.

The pain underneath everything? that is really hard to resolve and it may take many years. Once you're hurt that deeply by a parent it is hard to find and also to accept the love and attention that you deserve. But it -is- possible. Some people find it in skilled therapy, some in partner / children / friends.

In this situation it sounds like your father won't be around much longer. It also sounds as if he's highly irrational and blaming you for all the stuff that perhaps deep down he knows he's guilty of himself.

In practical terms, what do you want now? to cut off contact? to keep a faint contact? to try to be there? if it's either of the latter two, he'll likely spew a LOT more nastiness at you and for your own sake you'll need to consider whether you want to or can handle it. One thing that's helped me with my own less-than-delightful, to put it mildly, parents and contact is considering how I will feel in 15 years' time if I don't invite them to wedding / try to retain contact near death. (answer in both cases for me: no regrets. But it was worth thinking about).

last note in this essay: give yourself time to grieve. Grieving the loss of illusion that he could have been a good daddy; that he would be supportive and loving. Really is a sort of loss when you realise what your parent is actually like, rather than the person we want them to be.

Flowers
Meerka · 22/01/2014 08:33

and hello notsuchasmug!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 22/01/2014 08:53

Hi Birdmomma,

You do not have to seek his approval any more.

He was projecting on to you on your last visit. Projecting is a common tactic used by such dysfunctional people.

You are not your Dad and you are not like him at all. Your children do not have such a dysfunctional relationship with you and you'd likely want to do and try to do the very best by your own children. Your mother left and your Dad's answer was to put you in boarding school. You have two qualities he sadly lacks; empathy and insight. To my mind it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

I would consider counselling to talk to someone about your relationship with both your Dad and your mother as it could well help you move forward. You need to find a counsellor though that has no bias in keeping families together despite the presence of ill treatment. BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

I will stick my neck out here and state outright that none of his accusations levelled at you are true. Its all projection on his part, he's really speaking about his own self here. These people are true masters of, "come closer so I can slap you".

I would actually refrain from talking to any friend about your Dad unless they have a good background knowledge of the situation.
I have found that friends generally really do not have any real comprehension at all of what it is really like to have either a toxic parent or a narcissist parent or relative within your midst (unless they have one such parent or have come from a dysfunctional family background themselves).

I would walk away from your Dad as of now; he does not deserve you or his grandchildren in his life in any way, shape or form now. You've done more than enough for him already and you do not have to keep going back for yet more (perhaps in the forlorn hope that he will even now somehow change. These people do not change).

It is NOT your fault he is like this; his own family did that lot of damage to him. Your mother too also failed you as a child.

birdmomma · 22/01/2014 08:54

Thank you Meerka for your very thoughtful response. I really appreciate it. I have thought about the accusations a lot, as there have been many over the years. The latest are that I am selfish, self-obsessed and domineering. I think this relates to my refusal to be told exactly what to do and when to do it on the last visit. I politely side stepped a lot of his 'suggestions' and I know this will have angered him. I also intervened when he was trying to micro-manage my kids (where they sat, what lights they had on etc). I AM a bit of a control freak, but I don't think I am self obsessed at all. I am a mother and tend to put my children and family first in most things. I think the fact that I did this was a flash point. On my previous visit, it was just me, and I gave him my undivided attention. This time I tried to meet the needs of my family as well as him.

I have discussed the recent events with friends. They are quick to defend me, but then friends are, aren't they? I take heart that I have been in a happy relationship for over 20 years and have many long term friendships, which I hope is a good sign.

I think I will now go no contact, as it just is so painful and anxiety inducing having anything to do with him. This will be hard, as I think he is about to have a final cancer pop up, it is almost inevitable.

Thanks so much for your kind words.

birdmomma · 22/01/2014 09:04

And thank you Attila. I really appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to me when I am feeling so low, and it has really helped to validate my feelings. You are right that many friends, particularly newer ones, just don't understand at all, and say things that just kind of make me wish I hadn't brought it up. All the accusations he made were exactly what I had thought about him. Honestly - the letter ... I have burned it, but it was just so poisonous and his slant on events was laughable really. My partner and children witnessed the whole thing and were shocked that he could even make an argument from it. They want me to cut all contact, and I will now. But it is hard when i know he is dying, even if he is having a brief well phase.

Meerka · 22/01/2014 09:07

completely agree with atilla that he's projecting. Heavily.

Regarding talking to a friend, agreed too that talking about how your dad can be is probably not productive unless they really do have experience of highly nasty parents - most people don't, and don't have the first clue what it can be like, and simply can't understand. No frame of reference. (Actually, this can be true of some counsellors too sadly :/ a family member went to a BACP one who said that her mum could not be so bad as she made out ... And she had only begun to scratch the surface. Having seen the 1/100th part of the abuse she put up with, and knowing how she struggles to acknowledge more than than a small bit of it, I know full well that the family member was seriously understating what went on, but that's another story).

But what can help with a very sensible and people-wise friend is considering talking over the accusatoins that have been made. Don't need to say where they are from. If you do, then show them the letter to show the actual evidence of what you're having to deal with. Then (once they get over the shock) ask them for honest feedback on what they feel applies in some part / major part / no part at all to you. They will hopefully be honest and actually, it can be very reassuring. Outside and fairly objective advice 'grounds' you.

Actually while only someone who knows you can really have an idea about it, I'd stick my own neck out too and agree that none of the accusations are true.

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