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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

999 replies

DontstepontheBaubles · 18/12/2013 20:27

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.


Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting
OP posts:
NakedTigarCub · 17/01/2014 14:14

5 years ago

I called my mum and the first thing she said to me was "i thought you were not talking to me!"

I had given birth and it was day 5 in hospital, she know as she called the hospital everyday to talk to the mw!

Not how is the baby, you or congrats but why have you not called ME.

I told her I was busy giving birth and looking after a newborn in hospital Hmm

Hissy · 17/01/2014 18:52

cradle I had never seen anyone do that face thing before, it really was most odd. She was almost 'absent'!

In front of others, according to my aunt/uncle/random others, she's so concerned.

Putting them right was so funny! They were horrified.

Mind you, they are all now 'worried about her and fear that her H is making her like this'

Volume 2 for them is the Pre-stepdickhead years. Where she's managed to be a complete cow to me all by herself.

NewBeginningsSnoopy · 17/01/2014 19:12

Naked tiger I had the same weird comments from family members accompanied by crazy behaviour when I was in hospital after giving birth :-(

Hissy · 17/01/2014 19:37

I told my mum to wait until I was out of hospital. She had her works christmas do that day, which she cancelled on and came to see me.

At the time I thought she was 'dropping everything' but even that was all about her too, wasn't it.

Ooh, where's Hissy'sMum?... oh she's become a GM...

She even told me a couple of months later that she never wanted to be a GM. Wtaf? Who thinks like that?

NakedTigarCub · 17/01/2014 21:53

My dsis called me "mum said you are not talking to them because they are not going to Ds birthday party. They are old and cant get organised, its not their fault"

Me "i dont care if they come or not, I offered to pick them up and take them if they wanted, they didnt and hung up on me and haven't called me since. Hmm"

So I asked the impossable, im the one with the problem and now they dont have to talk to me and take responsability for their action.

How dare I invite them to ds party Shock

Im past careing so have decided to just leave them to it and not call them.

Hissy · 17/01/2014 22:15

That's called 'triangulation'

You know the truth, but they are lying and scapegoating you.

They can all FTFO.

GoodtoBetter · 18/01/2014 14:23

Hi everyone,
been a bit under the radar recently and no madness from DM to report. Sorry to see new people as it means they have shitty families too, but glad they've found us and hope we can lighten each others' loads a bit.
Hissy tht bit about her "dropping everything" when you'd asked her not to visit yet but now seeing it in a different light, I really understand that, little things keep filtering through, don't they? Btw, I don't think you should write a letter to them. I think you should just act as if they have died, no good can come of contact with them.
Pumpkin how's baby pumpkin?
I'm excited and have nobody to tell in RL. I've applied for a new job in a different field. More money, totally different hours. I'm sure I won't even get an interview, nevermind get the job, but just had to squueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

NewBeginningsSnoopy · 18/01/2014 14:46

GoodToBetter: 'I think you should just act as if they have died, no good can come of contact.' Wise words! Incredibly sad. But unfortunately so true! :-(

pumpkinsweetie · 18/01/2014 23:23

Hi Goodtobetter baby pumpkin is doing well Smile, feeding round the clock but she let me have 8hrs last night, so very chuffedSmile
She's a treasure!

Glad to hear you have no woes with your dmSmile!
Unfortunetly mil hasn't stopped ringing and tonight she even rang the landline at 10pm!! Dh is so far ignoring her & hasn't corresponded with her since day of baby's birth, but the attemped phonecalls have continued & voicemails to boot!

redmapleleaves · 19/01/2014 09:51

Hello all, I've been lurking for a while, popping over from the EA thread. For me its taken a long time to see how abusive my marriage was, and am now out but not free. And working through that, I'm realising how awful DM is/was.

She brought me up on her own and always makes everything about her. Till this year I'd always believed what she said, not looked at her behaviour. She doesn't listen, was actively neglectful, used to abandon me as a child, made me the carer. But its really sad to realise how she's messed with my mind, and to get to believe that though she says she is supportive, she isn't, its all about her pretending she is good to herself.

Leaving DH I moved back to UK from abroad to new area long way from old one for new job. No contacts there. I met DM and SF in service station to pick up some stuff from them. Told DM I was divorcing DH and she shouted at me. Told SF it had been an abusive relationship, and he said 'you're going round in circles, I'm going now'. And they left me, and the DCs who had heard the worst of the shouting and so just learned about the divorce, in tears in the car in the service station on the motorway after me tellign them this.

Since then I've gone NC with them, but they keep emailing and sending things for the kids. I de-friended them on facebook last week, and now they are upping the pitch, saying I haven't got long to put it right with them before they could die, that they are part of the security for DCs. They seem to think that sending gifts for the Dcs makes them a good grandparent and makes up for the crap parenting they did to me and the crap way they are hitting out at me now, when I could do with support. Its like I am written out of the picture. 'It doesn't matter how we treat red, we are good grandparents, she is too demanding.'

I know I'm isolated, and if I went under a bus tomorrow things would be tricky. But if I were dying I wouldn't want them there, not listening. My STBXH isn't a brilliant dad but he would do an adequate job for the DCs if I died. I feel what matters is that I am on solid ground. I am the only solid ground for the DCs, and DM takes my energy and focus and messes with my brain.

I love, with the NC, that there is a clarity there for me. Space to think my thoghts without them messing with them. They always say I'm too demanding, well I can't be, because I'm NC. But loads of doubts too, at whether I'm cutting DCs off from grandparents who do care for them and who they care for. But I think my needs matter too.

NewBeginningsSnoopy · 19/01/2014 13:24

Red, I can totally identify with almost everything you said!

When I split from Ex, they took his side. I have been intermittently NC since. Kids don't miss them. I have headspace. They try to manipulate me with gifts for kids...

Meerka · 19/01/2014 13:42

Your needs do matter maple and most of all - if your needs don't matter to them, neither will your DC's genuine needs. Not what they think your children need, because they've been proven to have very poor judgement. So they are not reliable judges or providors.

Secondly if the bond has been so far stretched and broken that you'd rather not see them if you were dying, it's broken far too far. If you can think more clearly and be yourself more without them, then ye, again, something is so deeply wrong that you're better off without and so are your children.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 19/01/2014 13:47

"Since then I've gone NC with them, but they keep emailing and sending things for the kids"

That tactic is called hoovering. Hope you ignore all e-mails (put them in your spam folder) and take all items they send to the charity shop. DO NOT acknowledge any communiques from them.

This is from lightshouse.org and you really need to read this:-

"Some toxic people will let you leave a relationship without caring one bit. They never really cared about you, and if you don’t want to be used and abused anymore, they’re simply on to the next person before you can say, “Bye!”

Others, however…

Others hoover.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. You can click the green & purple buttons to the lower right to find out if that may describe the person hoovering you. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
.
•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Don’t Fall for Hoovering Tactics

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behaviour. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honoured, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

Harassment

If you have told someone you do not want contact, and they continue to bother you, the police can assist you. If you ever feel that someone you are trying to break off a relationship with may be capable of more than simply annoying you mildly, contact your local police for assistance. They are well-accustomed to dealing with skillful manipulators and have many smart ways of handling them, so do not hesitate to ask for help. (And remember, you have nothing to be ashamed about; you’re not the one behaving badly, and the police are there to protect you from abuse.) For more information, visit the Light’s House Harassment Page.

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/when-toxic-people-start-hoovering#ixzz2qqshV4xs"

AttilaTheMeerkat · 19/01/2014 13:49

Toxic parents more often than not become toxic grandparents.

I would stay well away from these people. Your children will not gain anything at all positive by them having a relationship with toxic grandparents. They need positive role models, not people who are more than happy to do their mum down for their own selfish purposes.

pumpkinsweetie · 19/01/2014 14:58

Atilla you are very right re : Toxic parents becoming toxic grandparents.

redmapleleaves · 19/01/2014 15:55

NewBeginnings Atilla Meerka thank you all so much. Lots to think about there. The hoovering description is very helpful because its so counter-intuitive to the rest of life...

So true the point that if they don't respond to my real needs they won't be good grandparents either. Really helpful. Thank you all.

HesterShaw · 20/01/2014 00:13

Hello everyone. I want to post, but it's so much and I don't even know where to start. I don't even know if I've got anything really to moan about. It's predictable about my mother, well my parents really. Well my whole family actually :). Apart from my sister.

HesterShaw · 20/01/2014 00:14

And they did take me me to stately homes. Cathedrals and museums too. I'm a bit uncertain of posting here. Relationships attracts a lot of traffic.

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 20/01/2014 07:26

Hester this is a safe place to post. You're very welcome. No one else can judge how bad your upbringing was or wasn't. Please share if it helps here.

I've been really busy but things have calmed down with my brother. I haven't had time to post much on mumsnet lately but I'm lurking when I can.

Pumpkin how's that gorgeous baby of yours?

HesterShaw · 20/01/2014 09:44

Thank you MomeRaths (love the user name!)

There's just so much to say, I don't know if I can. Maybe I will try ans find a counsellor. Except I've no idea how to find one Confused.

Maybe I'll have a think all day and come back later.

bellasuewow · 20/01/2014 14:01

Hester I would encourage you to write it down, I found it helped. I got some posts back and it was so affirming to get generous support from people who know what you are going through I was surprised by the response. You are important and we will listen no matter how long your post is.

bellasuewow · 20/01/2014 14:02

By the way Hester I found counselling didn't work for me but worked for dh I found books and reading a revelation.

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 20/01/2014 16:19

So DD has just come home from DM's wearing The Shoes she knew I wouldn't like... She insisted on wearing those ones and would not put on her wellies or other boots".

I know I'm just being petty, this doesn't matter in the great scheme of things.

DM has invited us for lunch at the weekend as my cousin and his wife are visiting. They proffer great narcissistic supply for DM and often DH and I sit there like spare parts feeling like numpties. We don't want to go but in the interest of peace I think we will; DM hasn't invited us for lunch for nearly a year and had said she wouldn't again (long story) so I feel it's a small gesture of, well dunno really, something (an trying not to be cynical and think its just so she can show off what a marvellous grandmother she is and how exciting it is that there is another baby on the way all the while talking about DH, DD and I as if we're not there)...........

Hissy · 20/01/2014 18:22

nearly 1: bin those shoes.

2: you're busy at the weekend, remember?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 20/01/2014 18:43

"So DD has just come home from DM's wearing The Shoes she knew I wouldn't like... She insisted on wearing those ones and would not put on her wellies or other boots".

I know I'm just being petty, this doesn't matter in the great scheme of things".

What Hissy wrote and no you are not being at all bloody petty here!!!. And yes it does bloody well matter in the great scheme of things my fellow poster because its all about your mother again and what she wants. You and your DD do not matter to her at all, she just wants you and your DD to be her narc supply.

Shoes need to go missing as of now and stay missing and lost to boot. Your mother wanted to keep these a secret from you and encouraged your DD to keep these a secret as well.

As for the lunch you now have other plans and cannot attend. Let that other lot be her narc supply. You would not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different. Your weekends are too precious to spend any time at all in the company of such toxic people.