"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Gosh, you guys really know your stuff. And I guess thank you for believing me. When I talk to friends about this they simply don't get it and have even said things like well you and your mum are both really strong characters so I guess you just clash at times. I know I need to take some responsibility for things, but being able to come here and get your take on things is more helpful than you would believe.

DH can see what DM does for sure. He just thinks I shouldn't waste my time worrying about it and to let her just get on with it. And I agree, it's just a teeny weeny bit more complicated than that isn't it!!

And yes the FOG has got me well and truly scuppered at the moment. There isn't any one thing I could particularly pull DM up on. I often feel in a lose-lose situation and

As for her seeing DD well, overall I trust her to look after DD. She's sooooooo keen to be #1 GP and quite often states (correctly) that she's good with children that I know DD is well fed, watered and loved there. Her not seeing DD is not even a consideration at this point in time. As it is, she only sees her alone for 2 days every third week. We don't see her much outside of that. DD is happy to go there. So I find this part very emotionally confusing. There already have been incidents surrounding DD that have caused rows between me and DM, and I expect there will be more in the future. I guess I'm just too weak to take action in this part of things at the moment. I want them to have a good relationship but perhaps it's just a case of naively hoping it will be purely positive when, to be honest, I can already see that it's not (ie. DM bought DD a pair of shoes that she knew I wouldn't like, said she'd take them back, then didn't and said she can just wear them at my house and you won't need to know, I'll take them off of her before you collect her. We popped in briefly at the weekend, and the shoes made an appearance and whilst I was talking to DSDad I could hear DM saying loudly to DD shhhh don't show mummy these shoes, shhhh don't let mummy see, let's not tell mummy. I completely ignored it but it still riled me. I should've been brave enough to tell her when she got them to take them back and that I would feel undermined if she put them on DD in secret... But I'm not... And it's only a pair of shoes ffs, it doesn't really matter... And when I explain this to friends they can't really see the problem, but deep down I know it's about the priniciple rather than the shoes....).

I'm not sure I could cope with the emotions that counselling might lead to whilst being preggers! But I agree, I think perhaps I do need to see someone.

As time goes on I can see how I've made bad decisions due to FOG that have affected my life and relationship with DH (we were living in abroad when I fell pg with DD and DH really wanted to stay, but in the end we came home and it was mainly my decision and looking back it was partly because all I could think of was DM when we said we were moving abroad saying 'jokingly' I'll never forgive you if you have children over there. Poor DH is sad that we moved back and I feel dreadfully guilty that I put DM over him).

Gah. What a muddle. Sorry for dripfeeding by the way.

Franklynearlyready, I would not leave your mother with a goldfish frankly to look after let alone someone as precious as your own child. This is also particularly in view what you have written below:-

"As for her seeing DD well, overall I trust her to look after DD. She's sooooooo keen to be #1 GP and quite often states (correctly) that she's good with children that I know DD is well fed, watered and loved there."

Well you would like to think so but no, she is not loved. Your mother has made the terrible choice not to love.

"Her not seeing DD is not even a consideration at this point in time. As it is, she only sees her alone for 2 days every third week. We don't see her much outside of that. DD is happy to go there. So I find this part very emotionally confusing"

DD is still very young and does not notice anything untoward - yet but there are signs of trouble. Your mother is also I think pushing for more access and demanding that she is the number 1 grandparent.

"There already have been incidents surrounding DD that have caused rows between me and DM, and I expect there will be more in the future".

No doubt about that whatsoever.

"I guess I'm just too weak to take action in this part of things at the moment. I want them to have a good relationship but perhaps it's just a case of naively hoping it will be purely positive when, to be honest, I can already see that it's not (ie. DM bought DD a pair of shoes that she knew I wouldn't like, said she'd take them back, then didn't and said she can just wear them at my house and you won't need to know, I'll take them off of her before you collect her. We popped in briefly at the weekend, and the shoes made an appearance and whilst I was talking to DSDad I could hear DM saying loudly to DD shhhh don't show mummy these shoes, shhhh don't let mummy see, let's not tell mummy. I completely ignored it but it still riled me. I should've been brave enough to tell her when she got them to take them back and that I would feel undermined if she put them on DD in secret... But I'm not... And it's only a pair of shoes ffs, it doesn't really matter... And when I explain this to friends they can't really see the problem, but deep down I know it's about the priniciple rather than the shoes....)".

Your mother's already starting on you via your child and worse encouraging your child to keep secrets from you as her mother. Do not allow this to continue for your sake as well as your child's. If your mother cannot or will not behave then she gets to see neither of you.

Would you tolerate any of this from a friend?. Your mother is truly no different.

You will have more of the same - and worse - if you continue to allow your mother to have any sort of relationship with your child. She was and remains a crap mother to you and narcissistic grandparents really do make for being deplorable grandparents. What makes you also think that she is or will behave any better now that she is a grandparent?.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child.

Where you are falling down here is failing to recognise the narc's adaptability to changing circumstances. Small wonder too you have FOG in spades and I think it would certainly be beneficial for you to speak to a counsellor (given the caveats I wrote of before).

It is truly horrible to see a narcissist interact with their grandchild purely because there is no interaction.

Your mother trained you well didn't she?. You have bent to her every whim and fancy till now. You need to really break free of the FOG that surrounds you because you will continue to make decisions for your family based on what she desires otherwise.

You probably do not really feel either that you are your own person.

Thanks Attila, I find your posts hard to accept, but probably because there is a lot of truth in them.

I do feel that I am my own person and feel proud of this, I guess for a long time I just felt that DM was difficult and that was that, we all just had to live with it. I am overall less tolerant of her now and speak up more, or just walk away. And I know that the almighty rows we've had are because I stood up for myself and she didn't like it. But there is definitely a sense of obligation that doesn't exist with my dad, so perhaps from that perspective I'm always aware of her "cloud".

DM does seem fun to kids who are around her, but I'm under no illusion that the main benefactor of this is her and that she is doing it for her own gratification more than anything. I witnessed this with my stepsisters kids, specially DN - when she was a baby/toddler, DM loved her dearly, then as she got older not so much. I can see that this is because a 5 year old is less malleable (and able to talk back!) so I suppose there's part of me presuming that DM will gradually lose interest like she has with DN. Saying that the relationship between DM and my stepsister has never been great, so I also know that DN is just something else for DM to talk negatively about in terms of my DSSister. I will be on maternity leave soon so there will be less need for childcare from GPs anyway.

God I actually feel terrible for saying all this. As I said we're currently on an "up" - everything seems to be ok. Ok so she didn't ring me after the scan and most mums would've done but I suspect I'll feel totally hypercritical next time I speak to her as it will be "normal".

*beneficiary rather than benefactor!

Thank you.

I can see its not 100% healthy but don't feel it's yet enough to change things. Since a huge row last spring things haven't been quite the same with DM, though I suspect it's only her and me that could feel/see that. And to an extent I'm waiting for the next eruption so perhaps that'll provide more "critical mass".... It is building (but again I feel bad for focusing on the shit stuff, like I'm actively seeking it out and by doing so, denying that there is anything good) and there are things from over the years that are increasing it but no, I'm not ready yet.

Well we could potentially move back to Oz but would need to find new jobs (I transferred with work and don't think they'd let me do it twice, specially as I'm yet to tell them about dc2!) and I would feel sad (note: sad but not guilty) about leaving the other grandparents. DH and I have said we'd like to live somewhere else at some point so we'll see.

You need to come to that decision in your own time ready but as a poster looking in, I can see that this is also building between your mother and you and this will end badly. She will take umbrage at any attempts you make to reason with her and blame you; these people are truly masters of, "come closer so I can slap you again".

Do not be deceived; your mother may be a grandmother now but she has not fundamentally altered and you remain in FOG with regards to her. Her behaviour re her niece is also damning evidence. I would not want your DD to suffer the same fate as your niece (I am low contact with my narcissist ILs and do not engage them at all directly) hence all my warnings. They treat their grandchildren like inanimate objects; to be used and discarded as they see fit.

Thank you (again!) - I guess I am somewhat prepared for more palaver down the line and am heeding your warnings, if only internally at this point. I'm finding it all hard to come to terms with to be honest, but it is reassuring to know I'm not being paranoid and that it isn't necessarily me causing the disharmony.

I did text DM back last night with a response to her random question and asked her something related back but haven't heard a dickie bird. I shall think of a reason to call her over the weekend so that she doesn't just think I'm ringing to confirm drop-off times for DD on Monday.

Would use the phone instead if you really do have any need to speak to her. Then you can hear all the inflections in her voice.

Be very careful in your dealings with your mother.

Cradle cap gate - thanks. yes she is behaving that way. Should I post a card?

Hi cradle - yes she gives nothing back to me. she only seemed to be a bit friendly at Christmas as she wanted her Xmas gifts off me. The thing is I said in the text that I had got her gifts etc should I not give them to her even though I've told her I have gifts for her. .?

when I announced I was PG, the way my mother reacted really surprised me at the time.

Underwhelmed.

I told her first too. Wanted her to be the first to know. What a fucking mug I was. :(

When she got married, she cried on the day before and said that she worried that her late MIL (my GM) would be upset that she was remarrying.

when she retired there was all this fuss about missing the view from the window of her office.

When she moved, she clearly kicked up a right fuss as my Dsis broke over a years silence to text shame me. I had no idea of the anguish as I was excluded from knowing anything about the move. I didn't react.

When I raised the issues I had with DSis, and said I was having nowt do do with her anymore, she 'wept' (dry) and said oh, how did I raise dsis to do something like that? (she got over that in about 15s) then we had 'but I don't want you to make up after I'm gone' I said, when you have gone, there will be NO reason to have anything to do with her now, will there?

It's the realisation of the underwhelming reactions, juxtapositioned against the overblown efforts at getting whatever it is to be ALL about her.

Even when I emailed to explain (calmly) my bewilderment, she kicked off and again made it all my fault, none of hers.

I'm beginning to see it all now.

I really don't matter in her life at all, do I?

There is no point in me writing any letter, as it wouldn't be read, much less listened to.

I was going to write to tell them not to bother with gifts in the future, as they will all be binned, but this too is too much engagement. I shall charity shop everything.

I won't have anything to do with them, and I won't attend funerals or anything. they are all as good as dead.

I have had no contact for a week now from my parents. They have not bothered to call me!

Its been great

So who wants to guess what happens next?

My bet is one of them is ill

Whatever happens naked just say 'oh right' and change the subject back to you.. or better say that you're in the middle of something and will have to call them back.

And don't.

:)

Enjoy the silence!

hissy your post triggered some memories of how at some of the big moments in my life DM has either opted-out because they didn't revolve around her or made them about her. Again, a lot of the time it was really subtle but it's just dawned on me that although at these times my feelings were acknowledged, hers were the ones that were regaled time and time again, either that or the event is glossed over completely or rarely mentioned...

And I've just realised why I feel confused/deflated when I see DM has painted toenails or has done something a bit "girly"..... We never did anything like that together when I was growing up. I had spots from about 9/10yo so she'd squeeze those most nights before I went to bed and now how I wish she'd spent that time painting my nails rather than saying things like "people will think you're a dirty little girl with all these spots". I guess I get cross seeing that she can now take the time to beautify herself but didn't actively teach me to do the same as a kid. To this day I hate clothes shopping and suspect a lot of it was due to fractious shopping trips when I was younger. I've never understood how people can enjoy shopping or thought that in order to do so you must be really pretty and/or vain.

Right I need to find a counsellor don't I? Where do I even start?? Do I just google one locally to me? What kind I questions do I ask?

Ha ha and I don't meant that painted nails or going to a beauty salon is my dream but I suppose I've just felt like girly stuff hasn't ever applied to me and perhaps it could have if I'd been at all guided in that area.

talkinginthedark I would definitely be interested in talking about forgiveness, how and if and when it works and when people tell you you ought to forgive but they're basically wanting a copout, and when it's actually genuinely helpful.

Just having a relapse into grotty preg nausea atm, but hopefully soon :)

Hope everyone else is surviving the thumbscrews and toescrews that are poisonous relatives

Meerka my mother went into off the scale stressful narc trouble-making overdrive when i was pregnant, i ended up NC until baby was born.

nearlyready it is never to late, lots of department stores will give you advice on makeup, manicures/pedicures/eyebrow shapes are all fairly low cost at reasonable beauty salons. Maybe writing a letter to your mother and telling her how sad you are at all this, but not sending it - burn it instead would help deal with the sadness?

hissy I just wanted to applaud your strength and clear vision now. Im sorry for the loss of illusions, that always hurts, but you are such a strong person now

Nearly ((((HUG)))) that spot comment was just awful. I'm not a girly girl either. my hair was short - OK I got hold of the scissors aged 5 and DIY - but DSIS was the blue eyed blonde with bobbles etc.

My listing these things was as a result of seeing things that triggered me here, I'd not thought about much of it like that either myself!

cradle your dream is interesting, and very helpful I hope. When I actually sat down with DM and pointed out how she'd NOT actually been there and how I HAD been hurt by that and calmly batted back her attempts at denying me. I don't recall the actual words I used, but at one point I made it really clear that there was no way on earth that what she was trying to sell me as her version was correct and gave her absolute proof that she was trying to rewrite history.

The weirdest expression ever came over her face. She stared sort of down, into nowhere with a stony look. not angry, not sad. It kind of looked like she was 'computing'

The temptation for me to fill that silence, retract and back down was immense, but I didn't. I waited.

One of the most valuable things I have learned in negotiation is the power of silence.

She literally snapped back out of it and then turned on the tears. This was when I said that I was prepared to move past this, as she'd acknowledged it, and would base future acts and deeds in their own right not with prejudice from any of this.

then she excluded me from the move..

the rest is history