"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hi cradlecapgate

I would have returned the money; that was done by her to keep you further obligated to her.

I would seriously distance yourself from your mother as of now; she has crossed many lines and has completely disrespected any boundary you have cared to put up. Infact I daresay you have been trained by your mother to someone see your own self as an extension of her and thus you do not readily challenge her ever. It is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Narcissists often triangulate and your role (and by turn your childrens) here is one of scapegoat compared with your sister; her role is one of golden child. That role is itself not without price but your sister (and by turn her own children) is not aware at all.

Do you want your children to have a relationship with her?. I would carefully consider the ramifications of she having any sort of relationship with them. Your children will not get anything positive from having any sort of relationship with their narc grandmother and could well go onto use them to get back at you. Infact she is already doing this with your eldest by criticising you for him not being toilet trained. She actively took away your youngest to deal with his cradle cap (by picking it off as well, it will come back); its all about what she wants. She does not give a monkeys for you or your children, its all about her. She was and remains an emotionally stunted and selfish mother to you and will be very much the same with your own children.

These types do not see any wrongdoing on their part and do not ever change.

I would arrange to see the cousins separately and not involve your mother in any aspect of your life.

It is painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchildren mainly because there is no interaction. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated.

I can well imagine that your mother will go all out to keep you enmeshed within the dysfunction but the best thing you can do for yourself here is to completely break free of all of them.

The website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers may be useful to you and there are sections on there about low and no contact. I would also suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

Cradlecapgate,

You do not mention your Dad; is he still present in your life?.

Have other people on this thread have experience of elderly mothers - mine is in her late 80s - trying to keep up contact,partly in order to reassure themselves that 'all is well'? Since my father died five years ago, I have realised more and more how dysfunctional my upbringing was, and how unpleasant he had been in a variety of ways. However I also realise how much she enabled him to do what he did. As a widow she is selfish, self-absorbed, self-pitying. She is in reasonably good health and in suitable accommodation and gets regular visits from my two brothers. I have been keeping contact pretty minimal. But I feel she's like a spider trying to draw me back into her web. And there is always this voice in my head saying, 'A good daughter would phone her elderly mother' etc etc. (The reality also is that I am very busy with a work, a family business, my stepchildren, my daughter, an elderly father-in-law etc etc. I just feel that I don't want to deal with my mother's attempts to get me back.)

Hi everyone. My first post in here. This is my situation: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1959883-To-want-my-sister-to-move-our-of-the-parental-home?pg=3

I am reading John Bradshaw's 'The Family', and it has helped me to realise that actually my family are pretty much a textbook example of dysfunctionality. I am suffering from depression, and I am going to start seeing a counsellor to work out a way of having contact with them without it causing me pain. I would be interested in knowing how others manage this.

Hi all,

Just poking my head around the door - not sure I'm totally ready to come in properly yet. You guys seem to have been through much much worse so I feel a bit of a fraud even considering posting here to be honest.

I have an up and down relationship with my mother. At the moment, it's on an "up" bit but I'm still continuously second-guessing and over-analysing every interaction with her to the point I'm getting really confused. I don't know what normal is.

I had my 12 week scan yesterday for DC2. I emailed all the grandparents (individually - my parents are divorced) with the scan photo and my dad called within the hour, my stepmum was in the background all excited (she'd texted beforehand to wish us good luck and after I spoke to my dad to say how excited she was). We saw MIL yesterday morning (she was having DD for the day) and she asked us how we were feeling about it as it's a big day blah blah, and in the afternoon when she dropped DD off she asked about it and loved seeing the photo... and all I got from my mum was an email reply - I've still not actually spoken to her. Granted she was on a course for most of the day but I simply cannot work out whether it's weird that she hasn't called at all. I tried ringing her yesterday and no answer (she was on the course) but we exchanged brief emails and that was it. Even my brother was sending gushy texts!

Perhaps it's hormones making me over-sensitive? Perhaps it's not that big a deal to speak after the scan? Perhaps it's her way of showing she can "back off" (as she's previously put it in the past when I've tried to set boundaries)? Perhaps she's just not interested (which I find hard to believe as she's determined to be #1 Grandparent and always complains she doesn't see DD enough)? Perhaps she's busy? Perhaps she thought it was weird that I emailed rather than called (I wanted to show them all the scan pic and had to get back to work)? Perhaps she's waiting for me to ring her today? I seriously do not know.

I'm so fed up of feeling under the FOG of all of this. I am never fully sure whether mind-games in in full force or whether I'm just being paranoid. DH gets frustrated with me letting this take over my headspace...

I just feel a bit miffed that my mum hasn't called to follow up and see how a fairly big thing went. But then that loops back and I think that's quite self-indulgent to think that people should come flocking to me and it's all me me me. ARGH.

This kind of thing is just so typical of every single interaction we have. I question her motives, question or doubt my reactions, wonder if there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't have that kind of second-guessing with anyone else. There are no hidden agendas or eggshells to walk on with other people so I know that on the whole it's not normal to feel like this, but knowing that this isn't normal doesn't enable me to know what is normal (if that makes any sense at all).

Gah.

hiya struggling and nearly

struggling if your family/mother is dysfunctional, the bad news is that I doubt there is a painfree way to deal with them. But you can get to a place where it's manageable.

Firstly someone who has a dysfunctional family has to realise what's going on which is painful. Plus they've almost certainly been putting up with a lot which has been unpleasant.

Then once you realise, you have to work out a way to handle it. That usually means detaching from them rather a lot emotionally. You have to realise the hope of a loving, warm family is an illusion, and shattered illusions and the loneliness that comes with it is hard. Really hard. I personally think that people need to grieve and that is something that takes time.

After that someone can detach emotionally but keep (usually short-visit) contact, or they can simply step away. In the end one can reach some sort of acceptance. Other people seem to be able to leave the family-related pain behind after fully facing it, though I havnet been able to do so. But others can, which is the good news. :)

nearlyready it really sounds like something is very wrong if you are like this round your mother. She is highly manipulative? If you have to second guess her motives, then she's clearly not straightforward and straight, like your MIL and stepmother

Meerka - thank you so much. I know that there is no way through this that is easy, and I think the wound of being rejected by my parents will always be with me and will always shape me in some way shape or form. However, what I've realised is that I can look it straight in the eye, and say 'This doesn't have to define me'. I have the strength inside me to accept the loneliness and unfairness that is there, rather than trying to deny it or make excuses for my family.

Part of the reason I have to do this is that I would like to have a child myself. I know that if I do not recognise the way in which I've always felt unnecessary shame and inadequacy and rejection, and allow myself to be a whole human being with desires and feelings that are independent of my family, I will myself be very likely to repeat the cycle and in turn become a terrible parent. If I cannot conquer this, I will not have children. It would not be fair.

nearlyready - I don't think you should feel like a fraud at all! It's about how you feel. Sometimes behind little details lurk big issues.

Cradlecapgate - is there any way that you can circumnavigate her control of communication, i.e. setting up your own channels to contact people directly? This might be healthy for everyone. However, it's not always possible. My mother, father and sister all live together, and they always put me on speakerphone, so I have no ability to talk to them as people. It is like broadcasting to the household when I ring them!

Hi cradlecapgate,

Re your comments that I have put in quote marks:-

"Atilla The problem I have is that cutting contact with my mother would be like a landmine in my family - she controls communication between everyone. For example my aunt said to me at christmas, 'I tried to contact you when you had your baby but your mother gave me the wrong number'."

She will certainly get angry and do the divide and conquer strategy on you so you will be cast out by them all but what is worse, no contact at all or what you have now. It reads really bad and she's already started on you via your eldest child. This controlling aspect too is exactly what narcissists do in terms of communication. I hope that you have now given your aunt your number. What your mother did here was entirely deliberate, she sees you as an extension of herself. You were trained by her well sadly:(.

"My father stays out of everything, and to be fair she is very well behaved around him, so he doesn't really see how she is towards me. She's always been very secretive about her meanness. I have seen a change in him since I have been more open about her - as if he feels sad and regretful".

Re your Dad I would not let him off the hook entirely. Women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them; this is your Dad's role and he has continued to play this. People from dysfunctional relationships have roles. He has also abjectly failed to protect you from your Mother's mad excesses of behaviour and has acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

"I don't want my kids to grow attached to her. I want them to have a grandmother who loves them but I don't think she can be that, she just doesn't have it in her".

You're right; she has made the terrible choice not to love. But you are showing your children that on some level you tolerate her by seeing her at all at any family occasion. They are already becoming attached to her; she will though use them as narcissistic supply just as you are by her now and in other ways different to how you were used by her when you were a child.

(my comment
It is indeed painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchildren mainly because there is no interaction. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated).

"Yes, this is very accurate. She plays the role of doting grandmother when she can be bothered and when she has an audience, but the mask drops very quickly when she doesn't realise she's being observed. I caught her speaking to my DS in a very bored, dismissive, nasty tone of voice which instantly became bright and 'grandmotherly' when she realised I was in the room. It was quite chilling. I decided I would never leave them alone with her again after that".

But even if you remain in the same room as her the damage is still being done because you cannot stop the crap coming out of her mouth. Exposing your children to such manipulation is far worse and you all would be better off not seeing her at all. You seriously need to consider going low or not contact as of now because the current situation as it is will become worse over time. You could well come to rue the day that you decided to allow her to see your children at all.

I have also found this to be true:-

It is imperative to let yourself know that, without profound evidence to the contrary, your narcissist parent is a narcissist still. You must let yourself know for a fact that your Nparent can not be trusted with your most precious responsibility, your children. If you allow contact between your children and your Nparent it must never be out of sight. Never for a moment leave your child alone with this serial abuser. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look. If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Nparent. Ever.

You're very welcome. I now have two of the buggers to contend with; am as low contact as possible with two of them (their lives are very chaotic and dysfunctional) and have no contact at all with the third narcissist.

Thank you all, whilst it's reassuring to read threads like this, I'm sorry you have difficult/impossible relationships with people who are meant to be dear to you.

In terms of history, the main issue I've had is that she's always overstepped boundaries, yet commanded a great level of respect back. She plays the martyr, has many broken relationships, everything is about her and if I disagree or dare to speak up, then all hell breaks loose. I could list personality traits that identify her as narcissistic, I could jot down the altercations we've had over the years that would probably do the same. I can accept that our relationship isn't perfect and probably never will be, but crikey I feel like a complete bitch for focusing on the shit bits. Holding my mum at arms length means I miss out on so much of her qualities that are good. She's funny, creative, sparky, engaging but because I've seen the narc side now I really struggle to look past it . It would almost be more cut and dried if she was 100% narc, but just flashes of it here and there I find hard to deal with.

During my pregnancy with DD a couple of years back things became really strained and since DD's birth even more so. I didn't behave how she wanted me to (ie didn't want her at the birth which seemed to really surprise her, got fed up with her nitpicking on my diet), so she was disappointed/cross with me and was happy to let me know. She looks after DD on a regular basis (as do the other GPs) but I'm under no illusion that this is not to "help" us, it's so that she gets time with DD. I get frequent guilt trips about how she doesn't see DD enough (I work 4 days pw, DH works 5 so weekends are really precious to us and with 3 sets of grandparents we find it really hard to see them all, and equally, without forgoing our own family time). She's undermined me on a couple of things with DD, most little but one or two big things that all have the same underlying message - I will do what I want. And do you know what, to an extent all the GPs have done this and I guess it's part and parcel of someone else looking after your child and letting go a bit. But there is always that additional level of something more sinister/manipulative/controlling with DM whereas it's a bit more innocent with the other GPs. Quite often in rows she says that I've alredy pigeonholed her as the baddie and refuse to see her in any other light and it makes me sad to think she may have a point, which is again when I question whether it actually is her, or maybe it's just me being a complete and utter cow to the woman who brought me into this world and insists everything she does is out of kindness rather than spite........

Hi nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes,

I would state that if your mother is unwilling and unable to behave properly around you, then she gets to see neither you or your child as of now. I would also think long and hard now about exposing your child any further to her influences. It has not done you any favours at all to be at all around her and it won't do your DD any good either in the long term. Your mother is not and would not be above using your child to get back at you.

Its painful to see a narcissist interact with their grandchild mainly because there is no interaction.

Actually a mother who is really and truly, "funny, creative, sparky, engaging" (I would describe your mother as narcissistic full stop) would never ever act in the ways your mother does towards you or anyone else for that matter. I would also think that your mother has no friends at all; she has likely driven them away by her actions.

You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, your mother is truly no different really.

I would think about counselling as well for your own self as it may be helpful. However, counsellors are likes shoes in that you need to find someone who fits in with you. Also you need to find a counsellor who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment (very important that).

Sympathy to all those dealing with a narc grandmother, I'm to reluctant to let my mother near dd more than a couple of times a year - last time when I was out of sight but fortunately not earshot she told dd that she was going to live with her from now on and she said it a couple of times and freaked dd out a little bit, quite chilling. I think it was a power thing? So to anyone with a narc parent who does have time alone with your children beware what rubbish or lies they might be telling them.

Anyway I was reading about a useful technique called DBT or interpersonal effectiveness skills which I thought might come in handy when dealing with difficult situations.

Describe the current situation: 'you keep asking me to (fill in blank) over and over even though I have already said no'
Express your feeling/opinion of discomfort: 'I'm not sure you understand and I'm starting to feel angry about this'
Assert your wishes: 'please stop pestering me about this'
Reinforce - when saying no to someone who keeps asking you for something, suggest ending the conversation as you won't change your mind.

Hi hissy sorry to sound stupid, but when you say not to reciprocate, do you mean just her, or my U and cousins as well.

Tbh I think no contact should be the way to go, but in terms or practicality how would that work?

DPs mum, SD, and DSis are coming to visit in April, they're renting a cottage because staying in a hotel would mean that A would insist that they spend all their time at their house as "it's easier". DPs mum doesn't want to do this as she knows what her sister can be like but is only recently coming to realise the full extent of it.

The result of this is that we all spend one day all at the cottage, and the rest of the days are spent on outings etc.. But this means that we still have to spend a full week in A's company.

Also my nan is planning on moving near here sometime within the next year or two. This would no doubt mean that we have to spend more of our time with A for the sake of my nan. I really don't want to.

I might try and see if I can get a bit closer to U, and try to direct him towards the idea of MN as a means of not feeling cut off from the world as he is in the house most of the time. I don't know if this would work though, I just want the old him back! The one before she came along.

Sorry if I'm waffling

onboard I've heard of that technique before. Never quite tried it though..

So DM has just texted asking about something completely random. It's not that odd to be in touch via text but given I had a scan yesterday and told her I tried ringing her it does feel odd that she wants to get in touch yet doesn't call. DH will probably say I'm reading too much into this... I simply cannot imagine DD having a fairly big thing happening and not wanting to speak to her about it. My dad popped in today and couldn't contain his excitement..... Maybe they are just different, maybe the scan isn't that big a deal and now I feel like I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Argh!

atilla thank you. I posted a few months back under a different username and you said some spot on things then. Problem is I don't think she's that bad. It's all so subtle and whilst I don't doubt that its damaging its so hard to not feel like I'm just overreacting or being paranoid. I have considered counseling but I don't know what outcome I would hope to achieve from it... I can't change DM, for the most part whilst the situation confuses me I can accept it. This is why I feel a bit of a fraud posting here - with lots of the experiences on here it's easy to see just how horrific some people have it. I agree things aren't right but they are not horrific, just difficult and confusing....

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes,

I hope your scan went well yesterday.

Oh but your mother is that bad, believe you me!!.

Its typical too of someone like your mother to text about something random and or completely unrelated. Very narcissistic as well to do this in such a context. She is not bothered about you at all and is both annoyed and unhappy that the spotlight of attention is off her and on you. She wants you to worry and fret about her. You are not like your mother at all because you would never behave like this to your children.

You are neither overreacting or paranoid - damaged people like your mother make you feel as you do. Its not you, its her. The only person your mother cares about is her own self, its all, "lets talk about me and me some more". She wants you (and by turn your child) to be her narcissistic supply.

You are also not a fraud to be posting here; infact these types of threads are for the likes of you in mind, women (and men) who were and remain victims of such toxic, dysfunctional parenting and narcissists in particular make for being really poor parents. You have FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) in spades hence too your confusion. They also make for being really bad grandparents as well and I would severely now curtail the amount of time that your DD actually spends with your mother.

If she cannot behave at all nice she does not get to see you or her granddaughter. There's a boundary that can be enforced by you. All your mother's sly, subtle digs etc are deliberately done and over time in particular can be exceedingly damaging to the recipient.

wobble disengaging is exactly what I mean.

You don't have to spend a week with anyone you don't want to,
Why can't your DP see his mum on his own if he wants to.

See if you can't work on his mum, seeing as the scales are falling from her eyes.

Wanted to say this too, to those who worry about 'shit kicking off'

It is precisely because things will kick off because you want to make your own contact, or stop it that you should stick to your guns, regardless.

LET them kick off! They have NO right to dictate a single thing to us.

We don't have to 'do what we're told' anymore. Those days are long gone!

Thanks to everyone for replies .

I definately need to get counselling for me. I haven't spoken to dad since the phone call. I'm still deciding what to do and what I want with boundaries .

What do you think I should do. I'm annoyed with younger sister who lives with mum. I haven't had any texts since New Year's Day from mum. I always put my younger sister who is 20 soon attitude down to my mum. She's moody with me, rude, acts spoilt. Then she has trouble with friends too. Is this an age thing or my mother or both.
I've always spoilt her, gifts, meals out, always been available when she's upset. She doesn't show much of a caring side.
So I've bought her these gifts and put money in a card for her birthday so she's been stroppy since she knew I'd spoken to dad. I asked her by text if she could tell me the address of a family member as I have a card and lost address book and there birthday this weekend she said " why don't you ask your dad now your speaking to him again "
She said " what's the problem ask him now your friends again "
I ignored this but 1) I am not friends with him and 2) if I was why does it matter.

So I tried to arrange to meet up next week to give her gifts etc and money . She's got lots of notice and I asked her when she's free so I can give her gifts etc She's replied saying " I'm very busy at the moment so not sure"

I'm really upset as I've bought gifts and money and she said this. My question is should I reply to the text? Ignore it? If I reply what should I say? And would you give your sister these gifts with this attitude? Or a bit of something .

Her attitude is so bad and so entitled. I don't know what to do or how to handle it? I know my mum has a lot to do with things because she's just the same way. It's hard to see that my sister is a mini mum and turned this way as I tried to instill manners etc in her with the time I lived with her but there's a big age gap so moved out when she was young.
I really don't know how to handle her anymore. I've had enough she's nearly 20 but more like 16 but she's lived with mum who never has taught her to grow up as it doesn't suit mums plans keeping her at home forever. My sister is always funny with me. How can you have a relationship with someone whose being this way? What would you do?