"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

original if you just set your boundaries firmly and tell him/her over and over that you will not have ANY contact with anyone if they don't observe them.

Tell them that the choice is theirs; if they want contact, these are the terms, if they won't adhere to them, then that's their choice.

Absolve yourself of all responsibility for their actions.

original I'm afraid that if things go to the level of NC your M will likely make sure your DF goes NC too :s

Maybe if you start standing your ground in a calm and low key way, just maybe you can keep some sort of low contact which will make it easier with DF. It'll depend on how easily your M goes ballistic. If any sort of standing up for yoruself makes her mad, then it'll go nasty quick :( If she has a slightly longer fuse then it might be possible.

Be very sure to talk to your DH and tell him what you're planning. You will need his support. It's nasty enough having arguments in the first place, but when it's your mum all sorts of emotions and conditionings kick in. There'll be times when you are upset and maybe feeling that you can't go on with it. You'll need support then. Mumsnet's here, but rl support helps even more

Good luck, really nasty grandparents are usually pretty bad for grandkids too so you're doing the right thing for her as well as yourself.

Yikes Hissy, the thought of doing that fills me with dread. How have others done this? I'm thinking in writing will be better than face to face as that sort of confrontation has never gone well previously.

meerka that's what I fear. DH says we should ignore, bank it, and if she starts we then have a load of ammo for the inevitable falling out. However, for example, this evening my DF texted asking me to skype, which I did with DD and M just sat there ignoring us for the whole call. She was reading something but did not say more than 2 words. Didn't even wave bye when we finished the call. DD doesn't seem to have noticed this time but she will start noticing, I'm sure. I want to have words now but DH is advising not to say anything just yet. I just feel so bad for DD cos at the moment she still loves M and I don't want her to feel the rejection I did when I was small.

Oh dear, your poor daughter. And poor you, then :/ If your M did this to you, then it may happen to your daughter too, sadly. All you can do is be there for her. The worst would be if she switches between hot and cold with her :/ If she does that, then best to back off I think, so cruel for your daughter to go through that.

Thanks Meerka, she is very hot and cold. I was constantly on eggshells the whole time I lived with her as I never knew what kind of mood she would be in from one moment to the next. I think we will back off for now. Makes life a bit simpler in the short term.

Sounds so akward original must be so hard when you want to continue a relationship with one parent and not the other. I can only guess but i'm sure that unfortunetly when you go nc with your dm, df will soon be cohersed to follow. I do hope that in your case you may be able to retain some relationship with him.

Hissy may have that word with dc, although only 2 of them will understand. Aslong as my younger two never actually see the gifts i should be fine to give them away when we do eventually get lumbered with them. Obviously that will be hard to get dh to agree to as he is too easily swayed by gifts!

Re telling dh about "love" as i have on here would probably proove to harsh for him, he isn't there yet and his mother is still excused for her parts & behaviours in his life. I think sub consiously he knows but his mind clouds over it.
I did tell him one part though and that is that if dc mean so much she knows where post office is.

Hi sorry to gate crash buut need to post this.....

After years of horrible xmas and big event being ruined by drama and rows from my family, from this thread I learned what boundries are and how to enforce them. This xmas I recieved no gifts or cards from my family and I had a truly happy xmas with my dh and dc First time ever.

It was the xmas I always wanted and the best thing was I didnt give them card, gifts or feel any guilt about not being the perfect child or trying to making them normal and driving myself insane.

We went over for NYE and everyone stuck to my boundries and behaviours ok. My mum still talked alot about my brother and I just kept repeating my children dont know him he is not our family. She kept calling my child by his childs name and saying how they would get on great together so I told them my children will never meet him.

We had to leave early because my mum and dad babysit for his child and he would not bring him if we were there so I offered to leave so my mum could provide him with the normal free childcare. Just another occastion that its not me its mums golden child that is the cause.

Im not even bothered by leaving early even thou they hadnt seen us in 10 months and we were only there for a few hours.

My brother lives five minuted away and is there evry day.
I just dont get the need for my mum to keep talking to me about him?

Pumpkin, have you asked him what 'love' is to him? What he feels for his dc? Would he be able to describe how he feels? And how he thinks they feel for him?

original that's the F of fear in FOG (fear obligation guilt)

You don't start out stating stuff like that straight off, you start in small ways like 'No, sorry, doesn't work for me' can't make that, etc.

Wrt the the Skype, she fucking did that on purpose! You see that again, just 'lose' the connection, ok? Don't say or do a thing, just sneakily hang up the call, then go off line. Every time she does that, do it. Blame your router or broadband provider or something. Do it over and over, be bright and breezy. Yeah keeps happening, I must get around to reporting it... If she's talkative/behaves, then chat along, but the minute you see shit happening end it. You'll find the power exhilarating!

Try it! You'll thank me! :D

I know nothing I posted will make sence to anyone but to me it means I have stopped being their punching bag and contact is on my terms only now. I accept I cant change my parents but I can change how I act and react to them. I accept they are crap parents and will always favor my brother over me but when I take their power over me away and leave them with no option other than my brother its very freeing.

No if my sister can stop being the scapegoat and my brother stops acting like a golden child we might be a little closer to a functioning family but at 50 years old I dont think she will ever change and my brother likes the golden position too much so im not holding my breath

i did the cutting relationship with one parent thing.

its up to the other to contribute their part of the relationship, as any relationship is not only you original as you know, but the part of the other parent to step up.

We cannot take on responsibility for any others, only make it clear that we value the relationships we value and that they are worth fighting for despite the difficulties others try to create but we wil not allow to interfere.

Otherwise the toxics win?

It will threaten everything about a toxic, and possibly push them to the edge, but this is their responsibility not yours of course

I think this is the best it will get. Once a week phone call to my mum and a 3 hour visit each year, its up to my sisters if they want to turn up or not. I dont have contact with my sisters or dad for the rest of the year.

I have not had contact with my brother for 15 years.

I think its hard to go nc with only one parent if they are a couple as they will be codependant and not have any privacy inwhich to conduct the relationship with you. Also communication would be limited as you dont know what the one parent will tell the other and trust is a big issue.

I have found that the partner is accepting of the abuse and does not step in and help and this damages the relationship more as an adult and a parent they could help stop the adusive behaviour by setting a new norm!

Tiger I think your Mum keeps talking about him to you, to pretend everything is ok, to put on the facade of happy families. Is she in denial?

Perhaps she thinks if she talks about him enough, you'll respond and she can persuade you to talk to him?

Either way she needs to stop.

Wish she would give up. I tell her the truth everytime so its not happy families. Maybe she just needs to talk about golden child to convince herself he is perfect?

Maybe next time.i will ask her why?

the dynamic continues to change, and this is one for the long-haul sadly, some stuff does take a long time to come through.

Keep the contact you can manage with the parent you have a good relationship with, and by good I mean trust, as thats key in any relationship. If you cannot trust them I don't know what there is?

there are a lot of people with their own ideas and battles and things just don't stay the same

I agree with things dont stay the same. They older my parents get the more mellow they get. They are in their 70s now and I have limited contact with my father so his abuse is less now. I was so scared of him as a child and.teen but know I see a lonly, messed up old man and im less scared of him.

When I was at their house my father tried to scare mine and my sisters 2 year olds and I just lose even more respect for him and see it as sad and perfectic that he gets his kicks out of scaring young children. He has always been EA and PA to his family.

Can I ask something pathetically awful here?

Dating. Or considering it.

Is it that we attract what we are/how we see ourselves?

I seem to be attracting nice but lonely people. Somehow, they're sad. There are 2 people in my life, have been for months, one is a neighbour, too close for comfort, he's had some really tough times, and is alone. The other is also alone, emails and texts, doesn't call anymore, but used to. Has a full life though, but I

Is that who I am? Is the message here that I need to be happy and secure to meet like people?

Have a 'date' on Monday, 1st meet. I think he sounds ok. He sounds ambivalent about dating, kind of almost given up, and ok by himself, but wondering if there's more to life than this.

Question is: will I ever be that happy, secure person i'd love to have in my life?

Thanks everyone for your support & advice. Will try hanging up on skype if she does it again and see what happens. Going to be a long hard slog I reckon, and we have 2 family get together a this year which may be tricky if I am still being firm with M.

hissy I reckon theres a lot of lonely people out there, people who've never found the right person or who frankly are not good relationship material, one or the other. Their loneliness draws them to any single female who is kind or shows an interest, like lonely wanderers in the arctic being drawn to any firelight.

Doesn't mean it's you. It means there's a lot of lonely people.

Mind you I've become convinced there's also quite a lot of men who take it as a personal insult if they see a happily-unattached female, same as they see any lesbian as a 'waste' (ewwww at the men). But mostly it's just loneliness.

I hope monday goes well .. even if nothign further comes of it, that it's a nice evening :)

Hissy it's an interesting question about whether we attract certain people. I think as my self esteem was so low I married my ExH as I thought I couldn't do/ deserve any better, looking back.

I'm on match at the moment and I go into each date positive, light and breezy and I act like I deserve the best. Even if I don't think it, these days!

To me it sounds like you're a good listener and caring, and that's why those two people gravitate towards you. You're kind to them and I'm assuming attractive too

Good luck with your date.

lonely people are drawn to those that seem strong and good company?

Your task is to make sure you are around people that you feel good around? Regardless of whether someone is lonely or not, do they make you feel good, and are you in control of your part of the relationship or letting their personality/issues infiltrate your personality/issues?

hmm many questions. That you can see the dynamic definitely puts you at an advantage tho and thats a big bonus, its the scales that are the worrying thing, without the scales covering our eyes we can make choices about our direction/level of involvement, I think anyway

I posted that post by mistake. I wrote it then thought "ah what a pile of crap" so shut down my browser. Or so I thought.

Then realised it had posted, (incomplete too) and reported it.

Well, when I say reported it, I accidentally reported the post above.

Sorry Tiger I have asked if they can reinstate it.

So is my post valid then? Is it relevant? Shall I let it stand?

I can't help myself looking at these poor chaps sometimes, feel sorry for them, but at the same time have that 'you must be really pathetic if you like me' thing.

that's our conditioning isn't it? I know that I need to be needed in some way, and that I find it hard to depend/rely on others for anything.