"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hi everyone. I've come for a rant. Saw my mother today, wish I hadn't. Does anyone ever wish their DM/DF would just die? I just can't cope with this for another 20 or 30 years.

Do you want to talk about it, merrychristmasfilthyanimal?

Sorry Good your new year started off with your dm and her hysterics!
Hope there are no more ishoos regarding her for a while, after the last incident! xx
And i guess you win the trophy for today!

Having dhs phone blocked is great, had to switch my landline back on however as expecting call from mw someday soon. Well managed to somehow get texts from aunt & the niece to my phone last night wishing happy new year, and one text from mil to dhs phone and a voice text to our landline, weirdly enough saying same thing, and again she had to add "miss you all" & "son" to the end. So far no actual phonecalls, that is a start! Well apart from a voicemail last weekend before blocking, asking for dh to join mil and aunt at the local tesco.

I've just moaned at my DP, Good. I'm just sick of my DM. She's narcissistic, possible sociopathic. Rude, interrupts everyone. Self centred. No tact. No friends left. Bitter. No hobbies or interests. Alcoholic. Pathological liar. Only gives with conditions and guilt attached. Accuses me of abuse when I don't give her answers she wants. Is currently trying to guilt trip me because she isn't invited to my wedding (no one is, we're doing it alone, abroad). We're having a party in the uk after and she is comin - I am dreading it. Keeps asking me the same questions over and over, wearing my patience down. She's a bitch to her brother, the only person who really makes an effort with her anymore. I just don't want to see her, but can't leave her brother (who I really like and get on with) to deal with things by himself.

And I still can't forgive her for being so evil and neglectful to me when I was a child. (All of which she denies of course)

I feel sick with nerves before seeing her and a mess after. And I'm not a nice person when I'm around her. I just wish she would disappear. I know that makes me sound awful but it's just unbearable at times

Sorry for the long moan. I find it all hard to say in real life

Oh but I forgot the best bit about the mad mother drama llama business. DH's been laughing about this since I told him. She said the thing that most frightened her was that because I usually see her on a Saturday or Sunday and I'd said DS was under the weather and we were having a quiet couple of days, that I might not get in touch until the weekend and she'd have to live on the porch until then. That she would be able to sleep on the sofa bed and have to use the garden as a toilet. This is no word of a lie. I told her not to be silly, she wasn't living in the Outback, she would have (and indeed did) get someone's attention in a very short time. When I told him, DH said if she'd got really desperate she could always have eaten one of the cats.

Good lol that made me chuckle!

My mother sent 2 bags of xmas presents up with my DB who came to visit us after xmas. Remembering the "hoovering" article posted, I took them off DB and put them in my wardrobe. The kids have not even asked about anything from "Granny", so they have no idea. I opened them today, would it be wrong to keep some of the stuff for the kids to re-gift for their birthdays from us, and stick the rest of the clothes that she bought in a charity clothing bin with tags on? I have no intention of acknowledging them to her.

sing could you have not refused the gifts entirely, telling DB to take them back?

If not, then your approach is fine.

My DM brought me a gift from dsis, I said that I didn't want it before she came. She brought it anyway. I put it on the side, then, on my next visit to DM I took the gift and left it back at hers.

Never got another one

Gifts for ds however are proving harder to stop. I returned the parcel last year to sender. This year I got a gift sent through amazon.

I'm returning this, and the beauty is that they WILL refund her money to her.

I still have a whacking great gift left by DM/SF, no idea what to do with it tbh. Think i'll stick it on eBay at the weekend.

I would have sent gifts back too tbh. But they're yours to do with as you wish now.

I'm not sure I could re-wrap them though and give them to them from me. I'd feel really weird about that, especially knowing where they'd originally come from and there is the risk that if you do see them in 6 months etc, that they ask DC about gifts and then they say you gave them to them. And then that would stir up a real hornets nest. Iyswim?

I am in the same situation as you sing my DB turned up with presents from my mother last weekend, and worse than that announced he had presents from him and from 'granny N' as well

I have said that I wasn't happy with him announcing them like that (in front of dc) and I'm still not sure if he did it on purpose or not, to put me on the spot as such, as I'm pretty sure he thinks me and my family being NC with M is a storm in a teacup and just me being awkward... I've tried to explain why to him but he just says but she's our M, none of us are perfect, she did her best etc. Etc, so we agreed to disagree in the end and do what we thought best for our families. I'm hurt and angry because I feel he's gone back on this agreement.

I grabbed the presents from him, separated the ones from M and put them away in a cupboard where they've been ever since. I don't know what to do with them, I don't want to give them to dc, I don't think dropping them back on her doorstep is a good idea (I think it makes me look petty and I might bump into her), I feel like it's my fault the dc are missing out on presents, so should I give them to them or not?

My instinct is to take them to the charity shop and not even open them..

And I haven't even heard back from DB so he probably thinks I'm totally unreasonable and petty for not giving dc the presents

It's so hard to know what to do isn't it sing I was raging the day the presents arrived but I can feel myself slipping into just taking the easy way and giving them to dc.

If you can cope with knowing where they came from then you could give them to dc, but if it was me I'd always have it in the back of my mind and might find myself feeling guilty and end up breaking the NC to say thank you and it snowballing from there...

I don't want them in my house though, they almost feel like a malevolent being in the cupboard if that's not too dramatic! I just want rid of them and wish she'd just leave me alone, I'm still feeling shaken after the PO incident before Christmas.

sing & incog i have the opposite happening here, voicemail message of mil over a week ago, she said she & fil would be dropping gifts around.
I was scared over that week wondering if they would turn up at my door and also of the prospect of my dc seeing these gifts as i would rather give them away as they mean nothing to us but i knew dh would think otherwise should they come.

.....well it's now 2nd Jan & i'll make a prediction that the xmas gifts will be used as a ploy to reel dh in when they can't see my unborn baby who is due anyday. They did this last year, kept them until the end of APRIL and after many weeks of dh been persuaded round there they dumped them at our doorstep and i had to give them to the dc as they had already seen them!!! I had to throw a load of boxes away, xmas paper and have my living room taken over mid spring

My advice as i have only skim read so far, is to give them to charity if the dc haven't yet seen them and if they have it will be hard to do so, so depending on age of the majority of your children i would give away if they are old enough to realise you don't accept gifts of nasty people or if still young you have no choice but to maybe allow them one and do away with the rest!

Thing is most kids are mercenary and i remember the trills of "wow look what nanny ** has gave us" for fecking days !

pumpkin wow, April! That must have been a pain, well my dc have seen (briefly) the gift bags, but haven't mentioned them since.

Middle dc is extremely likely to be all 'oh isn't granny kind, I don't know why you're horrible to her, see she's really kind buying us lovely things' youngest dc won't notice and eldest dc knows why we don't see granny and will understand my taking them to charity shop.

So it's a bit of a dilemma really. Hopefully your dh will stay strong and resist his M attempts to use the presents as a way to see newest dc. Glad that you've managed to get some peace from them over the festive period and long may it last!

Got gifts you can't send back:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1948614-Is-it-too-early-to-start-a-swop-thread-for-unwanted-presents?

Open them when the kids are out etc and then swap them!

incogKNEEto DS is 8 and he knows that gifts from his GM etc come with a price tag. If you can find a way to explain that to your DC, it might help.

Swap em and see what you get back for them - or ebay them and put the money in a savings account for them for birthdays/christmas.

Anyone want an electric keyboard?

I might just do that Hissy thanks for the link, have been avoiding even looking at them tbh, might brave opening them later when dc are in bed.

Gosh how coincedental re the talk on gifts today!!! These toxics must run on a theme tune as my mil has just text dh concerning of all things Xmas Gifts

The text went similar to this
"What are we to do with all these gifts from birthday's to Xmas" "they were all picked with love"
Ffs how corny, not to mention if they had any intention of sending them or even caring to send them the birthday's mentioned were over 6 months ago and xmas was last week.
Dh is quivering again at a mere text and i can tell she is reaching his mind again
Told him frank- not to fall for it, they know how to purchase a stamp, send a parcel, it isn't all that hard and if she's that fed up why has she been keeping them???

I know, another sign of the predictable 'script' they all seem to follow.

I think your response was exactly right pumpkin, calm and measured but pointing out the obvious and simple fact that if she'd wanted to, his M could quite easily have posted the gifts, but then she wouldn't be able to hold them over your heads and use them to manipulate your dh, makes me cross on your behalf grr.

Just made me laugh was the "given with love" yeh right what sort of love (pulls sarcastic face) allows for a mother to allow her dh (fil) to beat her son, what kind of love allows for a grandmother to insult her son & grandchildren, allow her dh (fil) to trip over my children on purpose then use the "i didn't see anything" routine, oh and the sort of love that cant be fucked to post an xmas card.
Stupid silly cow, i won't allow her one up on me!!

If the above is what "love" is , she can go stick it where the sun don't shine!

Don't know why dh feels guilty, i suppose i will never understand.
Fwiw i have been rather composed in my anger!

So funny pumpkinsweetie that I have had the same manipulation over gifts. I totally fell for it. The gifts were utter junk. I mean utter junk. Disliked by children not just me. The parent/ grandparent in question was quite horrible to both daughter and grandchildren.

Probably the case here too snoopy should we get dumped with them soon. The things they got last year were nice enough but not something i would send children for xmas as very boring everday items such as blankets & school bags..... Things a normal grandparent treats their grandkids too once in a while, not what i'd class as a christmas present!

Considering what mil would buy her other grandchildren she sees all year round i was rather cheezed off as she used to buy them alot more than my dc. Sounds grabbly but that was another thing that used to upset me, my dc were always played 2nd fiddle to her maternal gc. Well sil1 is the favourite!

I know the gifts here will be well chosen, as they will be to make a point, and to try and shore up M opinion that she is a loving GM, who has no idea why she has been so cruelly cut off by her daughter...

Well, now DB knows about her harassing me in town last week, I didn't go into detail but told him about her 'mask' slipping when I didn't immediately back down, and about her hissed threats to me, we'll see what he makes of all her false confusion and crocodile tears.

Bizarrely I no longer care what she thinks of me or what others think now, as she shot herself in the foot by being herself just when I was starting to waver. Doesn't know why I am doing this my arse, she was the one doling out the beatings in our house when we were kids, I wish she'd just disappear. I know I've made the right decision for me and my dc.

I've been lurking here for a little while and I think I may have some experiences similar to others. My M is a royal PITA and my DH is only just starting to see it. She is currently starting to ramp up her unpleasantness, which will be the first time since DD was born around 2 years ago. It goes in cycles, but always ends up in my DF running between the two if us, telling me to back down as "she's not well, it's not her fault". However, this time I'm not in the mood to back down. Having read posts here and having had counselling when my PND struck, I'm up for the fight this time to protect me, DH and DD. But, if I do this, and it ends up with the no contact, how do I manage keeping a relationship with my DF? He is weak as far as M is concerned but lovely and I would really miss him. I'd also be concerned for him as without me to pick on she will start on him.

Any advice out there please?? Has anyone managed to cut out one parent when they are still together? I'm not hopeful it can be done.

Pumpkin, prepare your DC, tell them that IF gifts arrive, they are being sent not with love, but with a point to make, and that this means we can't accept them.

Tell em you'll make it up to them, but with things given with pure love and care.

No they won't like it, but you can divert them. If gifts do turn up, say no thanks, wek?e got everything we need and shut the door.

Did you tell your H about what 'love' meant, like the stuff you wrote above? You should.

Coolly, calmly, and he'll get there!

To be fair to DB, he respects my decision for NC with dm, she just dumped them on him. I told him to bring them up, as I didn't want him to feel in the middle. The kids have NC with dm, she will never be in the position to ask them about the gifts. I really like Hissy's idea, or just take the whole lot to the charity shop. I didn't return them, as it would just feed into her love of drama.