"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hello everyone,

Just posting for a bit of a rant/advice really. I've posted before about my family and my less than ideal childhood. It's been many years and I am now trying to confront my demons by seeing a counsellor.

I am really struggling with the fact that the people who were supposed to look after me and protect me as a child, failed to do so.

As a teenager, I went off the rails, left home to sleep on various peoples couches, did a lot of drinking etc and fell in with the wrong crowd. My reasons for doing so were that I didn't feel like I could remain in the family home which had been the site of my abuse for many years.

According to my parents/sister, I did those things because: "I am a spoilt little brat". It's nothing to do with being physically and emotionally abused by my parents, it's nothing to do with trying to escape the sexual abuse/domestic violence that I suffered at the hands of my first "boyfriend" at the age of 15. It's all because I am a "spoilt brat with nothing to be depressed about"

I feel totally lost, the hangover from my childhood/teenage years has left me with mental illness and I struggle to have adult relationships. Recently, with starting the counselling, my illness has flared up (the counsellor did say this was a possibility) and my sleep is badly affected with nightmares/flashbacks. I am emotionally drained and struggling with a toddler who just wants to scream all day and night.

I told my mum yesterday that things are strained with DP and I, we are looking at the possibility of me moving out temporarily and sharing access to DD. The main reason is that I need to get myself sorted out, it's not healthy for DD to have a mummy like this and my presence casts a black cloud over the whole house. I have every confidence that getting a few nights sleep, sticking with the counselling and medication will help straighten me out. I feel that I have a finite window of time to do this before DD starts to really realise that her mummy is depressed.

Anyway, according to my sister, I have ruined everyone's Christmas because of this. It's my own fault that I don't have family support as i chose to leave the village I was brought up in. My DD is naughty because I go to work and instead of putting my job first I should be putting my DD first and making sure she has a nap and lunch at exactly the same time every day. She then stormed out of my house and said that she and my parents were going to: "Fuck off and leave me to it and that I need to stay out of everyone's lives"

What do I do? Yes, I work. I work because I want to put a roof over DDs head and make sure there is food in the cupboards for her (unlike when I was growing up and my friends parents used to take pity on me and give me food as there was never any in our house!)

I am sitting here crying my eyes out completely confused by the fact that deep down I know my family are the root of the problems but I keep allowing myself to get "sucked in". They help me out (e.g. a bit of babysitting when they come to visit, dad gave me some money when I had DD) and then as soon as my illness flares up, they chuck it all back at me and say it's my ungrateful nature that's the issue.

Well done if you've read all that, you deserve a medal.

Paint- you are doing the right thing by getting counselling as addressing the issues from your childhood is the only way you are ever going to feel better. Your little girl is picking up on your anguish and behaving in the way you describe as she knows her Mummy is sad but cannot verbalise her feelings.
Your family either feel guilt as they know what you are saying is true or they are in total denial, either of which is causing them to blame you as they cannot or will not face up to their involvement in causing you to feel the way you do.
I suspect you know all this but having as little contact as possible with them while you try to heal is the only way you can move forward.
Probably not much help but wanted to reply as your post really touched a nerve.

paint this sounds awful.

Have you spoken to your partner at length? it may be that you and he need time apart but if you can do so on good terms that will help a lot.

Regarding yoru family, it's clear sadly that the best thing you can do is to keep clear of them. Extremely hard as that is. Take your sister at her word she .. said that she and my parents were going to: "Fuck off and leave me to it and that I need to stay out of everyone's lives"

There is a great book about families that are abusive, Toxic Parents. attilla, who's got a lot of experience with this kind of situation, speaks a lot about the FOG - fear obligation and guilt- that people feel towards unhealthy and destructive families and it really sounds like that the FOG is lying heavily on your.

You can talk the idea over with your counsellor and also the how-to's of going low contact / no contact. Mumsnet is here with advice and support and, if needed, the occasional plain-speaking for you and isn't going away.

Thanks Vintage I think deep down I know I need to go minimal contact with them. It's easier said than done isn't it? I speak to my parents pretty much every day, I don't know why as 90% of the time it feels totally draining listening to the drama about who they have fallen out with now etc but I feel obligated.

Meerka I haven't spoken much to DP as he is working a lot at the moment so we have had a couple hours together each evening at most. It's just the way his shifts are at the moment unfortunately. I know he will support any choice I make but his preference is that I stay.

Going to invest in the book, I am very motivated to make changes so will read anything I can get my hands on to help with the situation!

Thank you hissymis and talking for your supportive posts back. i'm feeling apprehensive about it all, her and her husband, my aunt and uncle and niece came round my home today. because I pulled out of Christmas with them I invited them to my territory today (not that she particularly respects that) but its harder for her to behave so badly with me when others are around - there were a few self pitying looks from her, but luckily everyone focused on my DD.

I do need some time to think, about me and her my DD and her and what's best in the long for me and DD. my sense today was that i just cant do this anymore with them, her husbands disapproval also goes to my heart as it feels so unjust as based on her twisted perceptions. but no contact feels daunting for lots for of reasons.

it feels so painful as this is what the ex boyfriend was doing too - controlling, undermining my parenting, making debasing and offensive comments about me and daughters relationship then gaslighting me and suggesting that something wrong with my DD, so to have it all from my mum as well in such a short space of time sent me spiralling into a depression. feeling a little stronger now though. I have got assessment for counselling next week. I have some bad, abusive and confusing counselling in the past, but unfortunately I'm not a financial position to have much of a choice, so really hoping they know there stuff

I'm really sorry if I invaded this thread? is it one long topic in 'stately homes'? that people come in and out off?

they go back to Spain on the 19th of Jan, just feel I'm going to be ducking and diving to avoid them till they go..

thanks again

just read you post paint. At this stage I don't feel I have a lot to offer you, but I just really empathise with you, sounds like a lot of similar stuff to me and I too get very drawn in - in particular with my mum. just to say (probs to myself too) it's actually non of their business how your bring your child up. anyway sending you lots of identification!

Artemis, the stately homes threads have been running for years! This is the latest one.

People post for support, or to give it, and dip in and out.

If we have a crisis, or a query, we get the support we need, when we need it.

No such thing as invasion, so post as often as you need to!

Paint, I can't speak from experience on a lot of this but on the point about working - I work full time and people can get unbelievably guilt trippy about it. I know it is what's right for me and my family and I see that is your decision too so don't take any notice of those comments.

Hi again, been thinking what to write to my brother and some of you helped me draft my original no contact letter to mum, which was really helpful so was hoping that i would get the same help with this too. I want to be able to explain some of my point of view, without seeming to be unkind or judgemental re my dads threats. My aim is to smooth things over with my brother, who obv still sees my dad as the victim, and probably me as the cold bitch that is trashing his wedding. Here is my first (very shaky) draft:

Hi, the reason I'm messaging you is that I'm guessing that you are still upset/ angry with me re dad/ the wedding. I understand if that is the case and am sorry that you and (fiance's name) are suffering. I love you dearly and do not want the wedding to be affected. I know you don't understand or agree with my actions and thought it might be helpful if i tried to explain a few things.

I did a lot of reading and talking to people in similar situations before deciding to stop contact with mum. I thought carefully and did a lot of research beforehand. My reason for stopping contact with mum was because her words/ actions ove the years have affected my confidence and happiness in many aspects of my day to day life and my own mental health was suffering considerably. I have tried to cope with this for many years, for the sake of the rest of the family but was no longer able to do this.

However, i did not stop contact with dad at all. I told him in advance of my plans re mum and was extremely clear about this on several occasions and told him that i loved him and our relationship was important to me. I suggested meeting up or phoning him at work. He refused these things saying it would be 'too awkward' for him. The last conversation we had, he hung up on me. In June, i sent him a father's day card and gift as usual. He did not thank me and has not contacted me since then,so his decision seemed clear to me.

I understand that you think i was rude not to send a xmas card but i did not do that to punish them or be rude. When dealing with abusive parents it is vital to send a consistent message and even sending a card can be seen as a way in or invitation to abuse/ contact the person again, and i did not want that.

It is also common in these sort of situations for parents to edit the truth so people feel sorry for them and to say things to upset siblings, as a way of causing more upset. I am sorry that dad says he won't come to the wedding as i know you want him there, but he is an adult and i am not responsible for his decisions. I hope for you and (fiance)'s sake he changes his mind and realises that the days is about you and not him or anyone else.

I have no wish other than for you both to have the happy day you deserve. I understand that you want all the family there to celebrate with you, but dad seems to be placing his needs before your own. I really want things to work out, and for us not to fall out. Perhaps i should have phoned you but i thought it might be clearer if i wrote things down, though will obviously be happy to talk about things next time we meet, if you prefer.

Ok, there it is. I know it is far too long and still quite judgemental, so welcome all thoughts... Please help me x

Do you think your brother would respond well to this? Would his fiancée?

If it's accurate and you think it's worth a shot, go for it.

What you are aiming for is for him NOT to feel he's taking sides, but that he gives his dad the space to make his own decisions

I think that's a good letter, MMM. It's clear and not overly emotional.

So sorry there are so many people suffering here at the moment. I'm afraid I haven't got anything helpful to add at all.

Thanks for the feedback. Hissy i don't know really, maybe it is too much. I mean we're not exactly a talk about feelings type of family. Don't really know what to do for best, v confused

Ok, what happens if you don't send it? If you say nothing?

Weigh up the pros and cons, write the message, sleep on it, review it. The do what your instincts tell you.

Thank you, found you!
I posted a while ago & would like to say thank you for advice.
I hope everyone had a peaceful christmas. My brain is still a bit boggled.
For xmas My DM gave me a tea towel which says 'a daughter is just a little girl who grows up to be your best friend' !!!!!!?????
I now feel guilty.
She's old.
She was here all day xmas day. She doesnt see me as a seperate person

Sorry, muddled head, will now catch up

Thanks for your support artemis really hope you feel stronger soon. Counselling can be a minefield and it's only now that I have found a counsellor I feel that I can really open up too.

Mellow it's hard when the guilt comes directly from those who are family. I can handle strangers making judgements but I always thought family should pull together and support each other.

Anxiously awaiting the return of DP from work, it's been the longest, most silent evening in a long time.

paint I so get the guilt thing from my DM about me working Full Time as well. The latest instance of this came in a phone call tonight when you could just tell she'd had a drink or two and was spoiling for a fight. She wants to visit in a couple of weeks, which I pointed out did not work for us as we are out of the house 8-6 during the week. I then got a total diatribe about how I was neglecting my DC by putting work first. Yes I would like not to have to work but bills wouldn't get paid without me doing so.

The real issue is that I am not putting myself out for her visit.

The ridiculous thing is that I've just had two weeks at home, which would have been a good time for her to come but she chose not to.

And another thing. FIL was quite unwell before Christmas and caused us a fair amount of concern. DH made the mistake of mentioning this to my DM. FIL is a very private man and of the generation that do not discuss medical stuff. Of course my DM is totally riled by this as a) he is getting more attention than she and b) she is not privy to the intimate details of his condition.

I'm sure I read somewhere that this is a usual narcissitic trait ie making the most of others medical misfortunes.

Radio my card from dm was gushing, as ever.

They often use words, it's cheap. Actions however don't match the BS they spew out to all that listen.

Bin the towel radio.

No extended family at Christmas time and in the New Year IS TOTALLY DEPRESSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please someone give me some options. Friends all seem to be busy. I mean I don't even want to contact them because A/ It's like a hassle and B/ I'm too depressed to bother.

Such a lonely, lonely time for those of us whose families were screwed up!

I'm enjoying the peace!

:)

I'm guessing my 3yrs in captivity prepared me well for weeks of solitude with my boy!

We did make it outside today at least, although one of my cars needs a jumpstart clearly which scuppered my plans to get the pushbikes sorted out for a spin :(

Tomorrow. Via halfords.

It's a difficult time for so many here

I visited for 2 days, was mostly out visiting other friends etc but it seems like my elder sister who is almost 40 is still enmeshed in the toxic swamp...she seems unable to distance herself, seems to need the parents input so much, inspite of all those years ago. She just seemed to regress into little girl behaviour. Even accused me via text of leaving with one of her childhood fluffy toys/security toy! It was very confusing to see. She needs to grow up.

Father did his best with random throwaway comments. As did mother, mostly related to Facebook (I've deleted her permanently). Mostly father stuck his face behind a book or newspaper pretending to read it, but really he was watching us. Very strange.

Glad to be home again in our peaceful chilled home with DH & DCs. Priceless.

Just wanted to say stay strong to anyone struggling with the toxics this new year. This too will pass - distance works, as does focusing on your own DCs/family life & being gentle with yourself each day

radio charity shop for the towel!

Radio - i received a cushion like your tea towel many years ago...

Meery sounds like your mum likes to call the shots so if she can't visit on her terms she'll strop. It must be like dealing with a toddler!

Totally understand the loneliness aspect NewBeginnings all of my friends have family visiting them and my best friend has a brand new baby so it wouldn't be fair to impose on her. How about getting a really good new book to get your teeth into? I can lose hours with a good book.

I have woken up today with some sort of bug- have been throwing up all morning. Made the mistake of asking my sister to help me with DD as having a toddler whilst throwing up is hard work. (Believe me I only asked as I was totally desperate and none of my friends were free!) She huffed and puffed about it so now DP is driving back from work (2 hour journey) to come help out with DD. So it's like another poster said, I need to take my sister at her word that I should "just fuck off and stay out of their lives"

Wow amazingness I can't believe your 40 year old sister accused you of stealing a fluffy toy. There are no words!