"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Just thought I'd be cheeky and jump in here for some advice. I don't really want to start my own thread about this and often read these ones for advice and links.

Yesterday my mother spent the day calling me after a huge row with my brother. She had stolen money from him and he'd caught her out. She kept calling with the usual tears and "he dosn't care...They all hate me...Only you understand me" She made some pretty wild accusations about him hiding her food and his girlfriend being borderline abusive (she is disabled but mostly ok to take of herself)

Usually, I will listen to her, make all the right noises and come up with a plan for moving forward - ie her moving to sheltered housing, going to the local day centre to make friends etc.

But I had my nephews - including a baby that needed feeding so I kept cutting the calls short and promising to call back when they were all in bed. She kept calling though.

Basically she said not to call back later, it didn't matter, she had taken all of her pills because everyone hated her including me now.

I called my brother, who was at home hiding out in his room, and he went in to her. She denied taking them ("I haven't done it - unfortunately for YOU") He said she seemed fine and would keep an eye on her.

I'm not even sure why I am posting, I just need to get it out. I barely slept for worrying. The thing is, I can see her doing it now just to teach us all some lesson so I am terrified. I will never forgive myself if she does. My poor brother wouldn't either.

But I am so ANGRY. I've never been this furious with her.

Does anyone have any advice on getting past the anger? Has anyone had to deal with the suicide threats before?

It's such a mess.

I've had to deal with the suicide threats and then the denial they said anything like that in the first place.

Be angry. That's the only thing you can do for now. You know the routine now, you can see it coming. You can almost predict word for word what she will say...once you can see all that, you can take the next step and decide what to do.

I expected the row to be honest. It all runs to a script with her and builds to the nobody loves me crap.

But this is the first time she's done the suicide thing to us. She has OD'd before. about 18 years ago when my stepdad left her so I know she is capable of it.

I also fully believe she would do something out of spite. I honestly think she would.

She's just upping her game because she's not getting the attention she wants.

My mum did this to me all the time. She finally admitted that she wants me to take care of her (I live 150 miles away and my brother still lives with her) and expected me to do her shopping for her. Cue the emotional blackmail, the pitty calls, the I've done everything for you routine, etc...Mine also tried to commit suicide years ago but that was a call for attention. She even used that to get me do what she wants.

FOG

Fear She's tried to kill herself before, but hasn't since (attention seeking) and is threatening to do it again (but she didn't), so you go running back to stop her.

Obligation You feel as though you have to do things, not because you want to but because that is what is expected of you

Guilt She tries to make you feel guilty so you go back to being her good little girl, or you are feeliing guilty because she is not the mother you want her to be, so you adjust yourself to try to get her to change her ways.

Three small but very powerful tools the abuser has over you. It's up to you to recognise it and stop it.

I know it seems clear written down bu I can't shake the thought that she will do it one day.

What is the best way to deal with it though? Ignore and hope she's attention seeking?

Call an ambulance and let them deal with it?

If she was really going to do it, she wouldn't tell anyone about it. Call the ambulance next time but your brother is there. Maybe just send him a text each time she threatens this so he can keep an eye on her. After all, he's the one who is able to, not you.

Yeah I know. I guess I just don't want him left with it all to deal with alone.

We are going to get him moved into his own place and her moved to sheltered housing I think. Seems like the best idea just now.

He's not dealing with it though is he? Even if he was, he's not going to be alone as you will be there to help him.

She's lying to you to get attention. She is manipulating you because you are the one who responds the way she wants.

If there are threats of suicide, don't give her a second of attention, call 999.

Let her tell them that she didn't actually do it, and is wasting their time.

Remember if she does try it, and even if it ends up working, it was always her choice, and ultimately she's only doing it to gain attention, and to control and manipulate. Any 'pain' she's in is self made.

meerka, that's the spirit! You've got a good man there! :)

charlie I second (or third, or fifth) what everyone else says. call the emergency services.

If you can, and this is very, very hard, try to mentally step back. She is playing games with you. Really good games that get anyone with half a heart going. No one even wants to think that they could be responsible for their mother taking an overdose.

But the thing is, she is playing games. Really .... fecking .... mean games. You are going to be upset, it's really going to hurt, both the actual threat and ther ealisation she could be that ruthless.

The best way of dealing with it at the time is to put the emotional reactoin on one side and to stay calm and pragmatic. As with anyone that you think have taken an overdose, ask them how long ago, how much they have taken and what they have taken, and where they are now. Then ring the emergency services. The key is not to start crying where she can hear you, save that for later. Let her see you simply handling it.

it needs taking a mental step backwards, at least at the time, and keeping your feet on the ground and practical. This helps you deal with any actual overdose and it actually also helps you handle the pretty ruthless manipulation.

If she's willing to do this, she's one hell of a tricky customer to handle. You may need to look for some resources. Possibly this book may help, mainly the last chapter on ways of coping with this kind of behaviour.

I think also that maybe you have to face the possibility she will do it. Mostly this kind of behaviour is manipulative, but very occasionally the person will carry it out. You need to begin thinking about what happens if she does. The same practical advice applies, but the emotional effect will be huge and I think, unfortunately, that you may need to face the possiblity it could happen.

Also, if you have a good relationship with yoru brother, talk it over with him and plan how to deal with this awful kind of behavioru together.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Meerka - I was quite surprised at myself lastnight, I just said OK, how much? then put the phone down and called my brother. I think that shocked her as afterwards she kept saying that even I didn't care anymore. The problem is I let go of that control and spoke to her afterwards.

But it's good advice to follow. Practical things to ask and do. I will try and remember that next time.

The problem is I believe she will do it.

Things are very emotionally charged for her just now. She had a great deal of control over my younger brother and she's lost that since he has settled with his girlfriend. She has an illness. And in all honestly, it's a horrible one. To begin with she relished it. It was a good, medically proven excuse for sympathy but now I think it's scaring her as it's progressing. She has isolated herself. She has no one but us (5 of us plus grandkids) Literally not one friend or neighbour. I know it's because of her behaviour but it still must be horrible. She has many reasons to feel it's worthless to carry on and she has a spiteful streak a mile long. Those things together scare me.

On monday I am seeing a genetics team to get tested for her condition and she isn't happy about that either. Part of me thinks she doesn't want the spotlight off her should one of us have it too (this sounds so sick but I really think it's part of it. She has a need to play 'my life is shitter then yours' at every turn.) I also think she is a little scared that we will resent her if we have it. She made me promise not to hate her etc

I guess I need to start thinking about what I will do if she does it. I'm worried about how my DC would take it.

A lot of this is that she kept hinting sh didn't want to go home but it's not ideal having her here. I couldn't do it. I think she may have made DD 12 feel guilty though as she said this afternoon that Nanny is so lonely and she didn't mind giving up her room for a while. She knows nothing of yesterday but I'm so cross that she may take some guilt over this if my mum were to do something stupid.

I'm sorry for the long depressing subject. Discussing your mum possibly killing herself is probably a big no no on facebook! Or indeed real life :(

Discussing your mum possibly killing herself is probably a big no no on facebook! Or indeed real life sad}

that's why stately homes / Relationships thread is here :)

if you really think it is a possibility then yes, you do need to think how to handle it. Talkign to your brother is really important here.

Also, do your children know that she's got a very nasty disease? It may be worth just laying the groundwork, that she has this illness and it will get worse. That the time will come when Granny is not around and she is afraid of what is coming. Then if the worst happens, it will help explain what was in her mind and why she's done what she's done. And if the worst does not happen then there is no harm done. The gentle preparation without actually mentioning the possibility of suicide will hopefully help, should it come to pass.

So tough charlie so sorry you are going through this
I second what others have said re your mother should she go through with this suicide plea.
Definetly call the ambulance should she do it, then they will deal with her.

Another day of mil texts, now mil expects dh to visit tomorrow whilst all immediate family are there. The guilt trip is on again like wildfire.
Like you said hissy it will get worse before it gets better.

Dhs running line tonight "oh i just wish everyone could get on"
-NO that isn't what you wish, i said to him, it's your guilt talking, guilt mil is building up within him!

Thought the blocking thing had worked, didn't realise it didn't work with texts. So far & good ignored.

Pumpkin, I think about how you and DH a lot.

I know how beleaguered he is, and how high the stakes are.

I know that he wants nothing more than for everyone to get on, and he'd sell his soul for that, as it'd take away that nauseating ache he feels constantly.

It gets easier, he does have to keep reminding himself of the painful truth until it sinks in, and stops hurting.

Burying the truth won't help him. It really won't. I so wish he could see this.

I too wish he would see it, i guess it will take a lot of time, even years.
His aunt, one of his sisters, nieces, mil & fil will all be there and expect him to go. I can't stop him going but i have said again like i did on boxing day to do what makes him happy not what others expect of him.

I know full well if he goes he will be bombarded with questions of why they can't see our dc & the usual "what did we do" sentence from mil or fil will come up and mil will use her water works to get other involved.
I have told dh the above will be the outcome and he can decide whether he wants that or he wants to stay at home away from it all.

He has nothing positive to gain, just the 'happy family' thing in his head he wants to create
I explained to him that the year before last when we all went things were worse and nothing happy became of the visits as even then things were not good enough for his family. Nothing will ever be good enough and nothing will ever change.

We can either go around in circles repeating the life cycle of abuse they created or i keep my dc and hopefully one day my dh away. I can protect our dc, if only i could protect dh, he is still a frightened little boy.
His expressions upon something as simple as a missed call or text are something that i wish not to see but it seems a frequent occurence at present. His face falls, his hands tremble, so sad but i still don't know the entire story of his childhood, infact i don't even know half of it.
I quiver at what they may have done to him

He has to stay strong pumpkin, just a little longer.

Charlie - my mum used to make the suicide threats ALL the time, even when i was a child so i know how upsetting it can be. It messed me up badly for years but then began seeing it for the idle threat it was, designed to get her own way. I would call the ambulance EVERY single time. From your point of view it helps alleviate the fear as they are best equipped to deal with any medical emergency and you have sone your best for her on the slight chance that she actually tries to harm herself. Also, it is calling her bluff in a way because it shows her that you will not be drawn into whatever she wants you to do for her to have made this threat. She won't like it, but you can simply state that you intend to take all suicide threats seriously and therefore have sought the best medical help. Also, if she continues to do this and it is noted by health professionals they will be able to suggest psychiatric help etc for your mum which may be of some benefit. But ultimately i think it shows that you are not willing to play her horrid game! Good luck!

Right guys, i hope you all had a lovely christmas but i was hoping for some more advice. I mentioned my dad is threatening not to come to my brothers wedding and my brother is now angry at me, thinks not sending an xmas card to parents etc. i have left things over christmas but now feel i should be contacting my brother to try and put some of this right. We have always got on well and i know he genuinely doesnt get why i went nc with mum, then dad, but kindof dads choice. My brother knows what mum is like, but thinks family is family, and i know he does not see my dad as an?thing other than a victim of mum and now my actions. I don't think i will get very far if i am critical of my dad, but at the same time, my dad is emotionally blackmailling my brother with tears and refusing to go to the wedding. How do i deal with this situation in a way to avoind any falling out with my brother? What should i say? We live long distance from each other so won't be seeing him for a while, so should i write? Discuss it on the phone? Please tell me what i should say as i am so bad at this sort of thing and will probabaly be oversensitive. Also what possible solutions can i offer my brother? He genuinely believes my dads upset and i really don't want to resume contact again. Maybe i could offer not to go to wedding myself as i wouldn't guilt trip/ hold grudge like my parents would.

I would offer to not go and let you dad have his little game.

To be honest though, I wouldn't be attending any other family get togethers if this is the sort of grief you will be getting.

Write your brother a letter, detailing why you went NC with your mum and how it's now led to this from your dad. Explain it how you would to someone on here and then send it to him.

You can not do anything else from that point. Keep in contact with your brother but I wouldn't bother either either parent from now on. Your brother will be getting a lot of grief from them once you've done this so warn him.

Explain that you can see the game for what it is and point out bit's for him to pick up on..that way he'll be able to see where you are coming from himself.

Bear in mind though, he may show this to your parents and there will be whole new fall out from it.

Thanks Farrow - no intention of going to any other family events after this. Went nc in May and just bad timing that my brother had already booked his wedding for this coming year.

I don't think he would show it to my parents but i wouldn't care if he did as have no interest in what either parent thinks of me anyway. Do you think that it is better to write than talk to him? Have had no contact for a week since text last Sunday. Not unusual in itself as was at inlaws for xmas, but i do tend to overanalyse things and worry too much. I just want us to be ok, and agree to disagree with my brother re my parents.

Don't offer not to go.

Tell your DB that your DF can choose to be a man or to snub his own son's wedding. The choice is his and his alone, leave him to it.

Your dad is making choices here, no-one is putting a gun to his head to make him be a total twat.

I agree with Hissy your dad can be a grown-up and go along or he can continue playing games like a child.

talking, i messed up the link. sorry! here it is www.luke173ministries.org/466807 As I say, very christian, but an awful lot of the forgive-and-forget and forgive-at-all-costs thing comes from the christian tradition. It's rather nice to see an opposing pov that's backed up with direct quotes.

molly yoru situation is so horrible, feel for you. Not sure what to say, only that yes, a calm letter explaining the situation may be the best option ... and making it clear how much you want to come and that you hope your father will relent.