"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Wow! I really have missed this thread! I used to come on here under another name. Just briefly read Attila's account of hoovering. Yup. That's what my mother has been trying to do to me and I couldn't see it for what it was. Horrible! This time of year is so difficult! I've managed to have a lovely Christmas with my DC and myself. Just like last year. This thread (and nice peaceful Christmases like this) just remind me that I am right to keep away from the toxic people.

pumpkin just keep talking to him, remind him, gently, that this is the reaction they will get from him, that he does get grumpy and frightened and lashes out, but that no matter what his brain tells him, he DID have to protect you and his DC from her, that she is JUST as bad as his dad and that you are doing everything you can to protect your children and prevent them from having the life HE had at her hands.

It's not about continuing to punish, it's her not observing boundaries, not respecting him, you, your DC and your family, and this is not you actively punishing anyone, it's actively protecting your family and him.

Try to keep him away from her for the rest of christmas/NY and then see if he can see how much better he feels having NOT had her vile poison in his life?
He won't remember the bad stuff, his brain is conditioned to try to forget, as I've said in the past, you have to keep reminding yourself why you have gone NC, it hurts every time you have to do this, but over time it hurts a bit less.

He needs to face all the things she did, and remind himself when he wobbles (as we ALL DO!)

Welcome Home Snoopy! How are you doing?

I feel so cross about this and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Last Christmas my sister and I were with my dad and his partner for dinner on Christmas eve and he was telling stories about me when I was little. I was kind of annoyed, because I always end up being the child at the heart of the story, and he also keeps on, when doing this, talking about an occasion when he smacked me in a way noone should ever smack a child of four [if you accept smacking at all is ever OK], as if it's an OK subject to bring up in general conversation, so told some of my own - the time he threw me into the deep end of a swimming pool (intended to be funny, though I was furious), the time he made me cry by winning against me at chess etc.

Earlier this year I then got an outpouring of "I've been a crap father, but please lose weight". Then Christmas this year I got "let's play chess to make up for the occasion all those years ago".

The thing I am really cross about is the emotional outpouring in my general direction, with the expectation that it's my job to make him feel better. [there's other stuff too - I ought to be able to join in telling childhood tales without it causing this much drama, my general belief that you reap what you sow ie. it's no good now being upset we aren't closer, when we haven't been for years - I'd been doing low contact for years, initially without really realising it/without knowing there was a term for it.] Mostly though I find the "make me feel better" vibes really hard to handle.

My parents separated when I was at secondary school. The reason my dad has fewer funny stories about my sister is that he wasn't around to make them with her; he did very little parenting of either of us - seeing us twice a week for a few years then once a week for an afternoon. My sister is much younger than me and I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that I did more caring for her as a small child than he did. I'm now in my early 30s. He's approaching retirement age. How do I manage the next 40 years? How do I encourage him to interact with me adult-to-adult?

[there is more, but not now]

My parents were always good at bringing up stories about me as a child at family occasions. As I was the scapegoat there were always plenty and my brothers would always join in on how awful I was etc. I found it incredibly hard.

I'm now low contact and prefer it that way. Tbh I couldn't change the dynamics with my family if I tried. So I'm not sure what to suggest here, apart from trying to talk to him about it.

Have you read Toxic Parents? That would have some very good ideas, as the way he is operating with you isn't healthy at all. And I can't believe he asked you to loose weight .

It sounds like instead of taking on board what you said, he minimised it and then deflected it back to you with a further put down after his poor me routine.

Others will be along to post later but I didn't want you to be unanswered.

independentfriend you have every right to feel cross. This is the first thing we feel when we start to realise all of the stuff that's gone on.

They minimise all this shit to themselves and to you, and eventually they have to get external validation. Other families would find this horrific!

Allow yourself to feel, it's your pathway to healing.

I'm still reading Toxic Parents, the bit about forgiving and whether it's possible or not, and whether you have to or not.

hissy forgiveness is something I struggle with a lot. I'm still so angry at times and it holds me up. I don't want to be angry any more. Also I grew up with the old idea 'forgive and forget' and that's been intepreted in the past as 'forgive and go right back into the same situation'.

Well a few weeks ago someone posted a link on forgiveness. It's heavily christian but it is NOT soppy. It says very clearly that there is no need to forgive if the other person does not turn from their god-awful behaviour. And even if they do, and you forgive, there is still no obligation to reconcile with them. It is up to you.

(www.luke173ministries.org/466807)

may I ask what you think of forgiveness and how to handle it? its something that I havent found my way with yet and well, there's so much soppy and downright damaging crap talked bout it. I didn't find Toxic Parents that useful over this bit.

Thankyou Hissy i spoke to him last night & explained why we cannot allow his mother contact with dc ever again. I reminded him that words can hurt too and i also reminded him of the times she broke her chances.

Without actually being nasty i think i put it across pretty well and he seemed to have understood why we cant let it happen again.

I also told him how much more calm it is now and each year it will get better and his mum will eventually come to terms with the fact dc are nc.
He did agree things are better now, so that is a start.

Re Forgivness, i think you can forgive but not forget and maybe with some people reconcilliation may work given that the person has changed & that no further hurt is done. But i 9 times out of 10 i would say it's very unlikely.
As people like this never change, they minimise & carry on the abuse verbally and mentally.

I guess it's up to the individual if they think contact or non contact is best for them

Meerka love, i'm struggling too with this forgiveness stuff!

As I say, am midway through the chapter, but in essence so far, it says beware the need to forgive too soon, as it is all too easy to say you've forgiven when actually it's minimisation.

I think (and this is me blundering through this myself) that it's critical we allow ourselves to feel the feelings that were denied us.

We let these feelings out and study the whys and wherefores of them and then put them back where they ought to be.

Then, eventually we can let them go, once we've made peace with those feelings.

We don't have to make peace with those who hurt us, and refuse to take responsibility for it.

I think.

I'll let you know how that one works out for me! :)

Have my landline handset switched off but the actual rocker still rings
Just checked who rand by doing 1471 and it was mil again.
For godsake every single day without fail, i know she is toxic but i'm now starting to wonder whether she is also obessive too!

Can she not leave his/our phone for just one single solitary day

Unplug it from the wall Pumpkin. It'll still ring at her end but you won't be able to hear it.

Will do Farrow! Thankyou

Took dhs phone of airoplane mode to check & delete and she has tried his too! Even though he told her 3 days ago his phone had kicked the bucket! I guess she is cunning!

One thing she hasn't tried is writing a letter, or sending and xmas card.
Funny how she seems so bothered about not seeing dh & dc but hasn't made any normal attempts at sending christmas wishes! Not one nice message or voicemail saying happy christmas just constant missed calls and one or two messages asking what time dh was to come yesterday.
Atleast it has confirmed to me i'm doing the right thing, a leopard never changes it's spots!
It's amazing that rational people like us still have this clouded view that these people may one day show some compassion or normality when unfortunetly that will never happen!

heh hissy please do say how it's going . I do not like being so angry, it spills over into grumpiness and snappiness with people who don't deserve it like DH and son. And it is so uncomfortable. It feels like it is keeping me tied in the past when I would like to move into the future.

Well, we keep on going huh.

Pumpkin, please have another chat with your H.

This stuff may escalate, you all need to hunker down as a family, until it blows over.

Unplug phone, aircraft mode, you check, delete and ignore all messages.

It may get worse before it gets better. He needs to focus on his levels of anxiety and any improvements he feels as he's weaned off the poison.

I'm feeling better myself for finally having space, and having it justified too. It feels odd, but good, to be in the right.

Therapist said he thought I ought to carry on as I am, that I seem to be allowing my instincts to guide me, and they appear to be serving me well.

I got a little lost navigating myself round the site! so this got posted in relationships, I got some really help full feedback but got the link for here, so apologies to those have seen the post already

I'm looking for some support advice and help and was recommended this site. it feels hard to know where to start - so I will start from nowish and work backwards! I recently had to end what became an emotionally /physiologically abusive relationship, i'm finding it difficult to leave but his behaviour reminded me of my ex (Father of my child) ex before him, ex before him etc etc. I in bolt horrible lightening I realised all these abusive experiences behaviours/tactics I have had In my relationships I also experienced by my mother, in fact freakishly my ex and my mother said a couple of things that were almost word for word the same!

I have done some reading on abusive relationships and am using a forum to help with that. but I started to read about narcissistic personality disorder and all seem to fit with my mother. it has always been incredibly difficult to describe her behaviour, I have felt there is something 'wrong' with her but have had I idea what until now. no one has ever made me feel as worthless and crazy as her, she plays the victim always and I have been regularly accused of being cruel and punishing, ruining her life etc, and yet it is her that I now see in full Technicolor as being so very cruel and punishing, but her victim act is very pervasive.

I'd like to share a couple of historic examples, before explaining what's happening now.
I was sexauly assaulted/raped/abused on several occasions in my teens, which she either ignored or blamed me for. I had no boundaries and was drinking destructively from an early age. I was raped by someone whilst on holiday when 14 at the time I didn't understand it was rape, but became scared of HIV (its was the 80's) when I told her about it she suggested I wear a condom next time, I realised years later she knew I had been raped. when I was about 15 I had let a lad in my house while she was at the pub and he stole a small Casio calculator, a discussion ensued with her after about this missing calculator - but a previous incident had happened with this lad in which he had tried to rape me and had sexually assaulted me, I bravely told her what happened previously with this lad and she looked at me said nothing then started complaining about the calculator again, she took me in the car to his house, I waited in the car while she went shouting at his parents about the stolen calculator. these are just a couple of examples, she was very emotionally dependent I was the was person she confided about everything including her considering suicide. when I would visit my dad in the schools hols her first words were 'have you missed me?' I would always say yes and no was no worth the guilt trip.

I feel she had me to meet her own needs and when I went off the rails or started having difficulties she punished me mercilessly. I struggled with my relationship with her for many years but in about 2005 I broke contact with her (v long story) but the gist being that after a period of time in counselling I realised that an incident that happened when I was 13 with a group of boys was in fact rape and abuse which I had been so very ashamed of, at that time (2005) I started to realise how my mum had neglected me, and during a visit to hers a row ensued I ended up shouting in her partners face that I had been gang raped and she had done nothing about it, in the most horrible pathetic victim voice she said 'so that's why you have been punishing me all these years' and that was it, her partner told us to leave and after hearing nothing 2 weeks she sent me a brown envelope, with my address typed on it (?) with the toothbrush I had left at her's inside - nothing else, so after trying to write her to no avail I broke all contact with her until I had my little girl 3 and 1/2 years ago.

Things seemed better with her, she seem to be respectful and even showed some kindness and I felt that now I was a mum things had changed, I foolishly let her in again and things have gradually started to get difficult again and in the last few weeks It has come to head. her and her partner live abroad, but have been spending longer period over here since buying a flat here. they came back a few weeks ago, I have been very distraught about my very recent break up but also disturbed by realisation of how similar his behaviour and mothers are so have found it very difficult being around her, on one visit she came round and started criticising my flat and my daughters behaviour, and the following visit after her having my little girl over night, she complained about my daughter - that I need to sort her tantrums out etc - and finished off by saying that maybe I need to take her to a child physiologist. I was absolutely distraught after she left. yes I am finding my LO challenging at the moment she is 3 and 1/2 she is very strong willed, intelligent and confident, I am struggling with her defiance especially as I have been so low. nursery think she is great so confident, sociable, chatty, no complaints there, my good mum friends think my LO is great and yes hard going but nothing wrong with her.

I pulled out of Christmas day with my mum as if she said one more word my bubbling rage towards her would have exploded, of course she is saying I ruined Christmas for her, that she cant win with me, that after all she has done for me...etc. I have said to her that I am finding my relationship with her difficult and could she consider having some kind of family mediation/counselling together to try and sort things in the new year. in all honesty I don't think I can continue having a relationship with her, but my daughter loves both her and her partner very much. I guess that the ideal thing for me would be to have a safe place to confront her once and for all about her abuse ( I Know she wont here it, but at least I will have said my truth) and then negotiate how we move forward with them having a relationship with my daughter. my mums response to the suggestion was along the lines of Fine! I presume your sorting it, at least I get to say how I feel! they go back to Spain in mid Jan - I really don't what to do, I can't foot the bill for family counselling on my own, I don't how realistic it is to get what i'm looking for, I don't know what sort of organisation could help, i'm scared it will be an emotional bloodbath but don't what else to do, has anyone got any ideas? has anyone on here done anything similar with parent/s? so sorry for such a long post and thanks to anyone for taking the time to read it . artemis.

Artemis you don't need to confront her, you don't need to do anything you don't want to do.

Your DD is taken in by her, because she is using your DD as a tool to show you up.

You can't negotiate with this woman, she will use the therapist to tear you to shreds.

don't do anything. Just let them go to Spain, let them go without any fuss or contact ideally.

Then, when she is gone, you can see how you feel. You need to tell your DD (age appropriate) the truth. Stop covering for your mother's abuse of you.

You will be OK. You will be better than OK, you will be free.

Meant to say - defiance, at 3.5? totally normal. they are little buggers at that age sometimes, no matter who the parent is.

She'll grow out of it.

Your mother is however blaming you, and that is where the abuse/division starts.

Yy Hissy.

forgiveness - no. It's utter bollocks, IMHO. Why forgive people who continue to hurt you??! I would agree that the urge to "forgive" probably comes out of a need to minimise and deny, and I really disagree with the school of thought that says you have to forgive to move on, that holding on to anger will only hurt you more.

I couldn't agree with this more.

I don't easily forgive, to me, that happens over time. Once I'm sure that it won't happen again and the person who hurt me has shown that they are truly sorry I will put it all behind me and forgive them. If you want forgivness from me you will have to work for it. It's not easy to forget the hurt.

I'll give everyone (usually) a second chance but if you hurt me again, Game over.

It's harsh toward the other person sometimes but I need to do this for me and it's my mind and feelings I need to work with, not theirs.

Meerka I too LOATHE(D) the anger, it does pass, I found venting here, having imaginary conversations with them, telling them everything I wish I could/had said helped.

In the latest episode, I actually listed all the feelings i'd had. They were a muddle, but I felt every last one. Angry, hurt, bewildered, confused, powerless, scared,shocked, sad, alone etc and it surprisingly worked, it really helped.

We should feel angry at the injustice done TO us. We would if it were a stranger.

My mission in life is to 'Be Authentic' I find it helps in every aspect of it.

Ha ha, therapy helped massively too, as I was able to talk about my anger at them.

It's crucial!

heh yeah, maybe I need to rant more. Husband does tell me that from time to time, I ask him .. "are you sure? are you really really sure you want me to" heh.

Agreed, we should feel angry! as asngry that it's done to us as if it was done to our friend. It takes a while to admit that though, doesn't it.

farrow and talking, I think that was the point of the link I posted. YOu cant forgive someone and go back into the same situation. Not if you're sane. No one expects you to, and in fact (if you believe in god) even He says not to. If even he doesnt, how can anyone else?

It seems like there isn't a (reasonable) expectation that you should just forgive and forget. Even if someone does genuinely regret and apologise, then its entirely up to you, if I read it right. For me, though none of the shitty parents have apologised and they never will, I am simply tired of the anger simmering within me and sometimes spilling over.

I want to get rid of it not for their sake, but for mine. To hell with forgiving them because I'm supposed to. That link kind of made it ok to say 'no, im not supposed to'. I want to forgive because maybe then the anger will lessen.