To start ignoring my mother and go entirely no contact?

[singlemedicmum]

Sorry to post another mother related thread, but just wanted to get some perspective. This is my second post here, I've been reading threads for a few weeks and am pretty happy to note that most posters have a similar moral compass to myself (and don't take any shit either).

Massively long story and as I'm a pretty private person I'll try hard to omit possible identifiers.

Essentially I've a tiny family. Dear father no longer alive (the one family member who loved me unconditionally sadly), and two siblings (I'm the middle one ha!) and a mother who's pretty passive aggressive. Was used as a housemaid and babysitter for the younger sibling from the age of about 10 so my mum could spend evenings and weekends focussing on taking the elder sibling to sports events.

From age 11 I spent my teens living mainly with my father but got into an unsettling cycle of moving back and forth from each parent. Mother tried hard to restrict my teenage freedom (I chose people who were part of a religion and race she hated and still hates) but was more than happy to facilitate my elder siblings socialising.

I've had years of being close with the 3 of them, but this has regularly been interspersed with periods of being treated like shit. I've been used to perform tasks that only I can do properly (I'm miles more academic than the other two, and have nous) and I've also received tonnes of help with childcare so she's not all bad. I'm divorced with 2 children and a single parent for several years now.

Stupidly I entered an abusive relationship a couple of years ago. I managed to get rid of the wanker a year ago. Whilst initially liking this dick, my mother became very aloof and kept her distance once the relationship became established. To my eternal shame and guilt there was also some pretty psychologically horrendous DV and this was directed towards the kids too. I struggled alone with this (totally persuaded that it was acceptable and still can't get my head round why I tolerated it) and eventually confided in a close friend and ended the relationship (contacting police etc as he was stalking us towards the end)

Since that relationship started my family completely stepped back and without detailing the ins and outs I was ignored by my elder sibling, the youngest showed their true colours by sending verbal abuse via text and mother to this day has never phoned and has just sent text messages asking to see my children.

I've repeatedly explained that they can't ignore my existence yet still text (fucking text messages and not even a damn phone call) requesting to see my children. She won't come over to talk even when I've explained we can forget about everything and start afresh, that I need a mother and that I'm happy to make amends and be a family again. I'm still getting stupid shitty texts eg 'can the children come over as I'm at home today' or 'would the children like to come to a bonfire' etc etc. No hello or how are you, and definitely no response to my requests to make amends and start afresh.

Am I being unreasonable to tell my so called mother to fuck the fuck off and leave me alone and stop sending rude and pathetic text messages? Or would it be sensible to just ignore these fucking irritating texts?

Sorry to write such a tedious post. There's lots more to this. I've tried my best. I'm alone and coping well with the children but since disengaging with this bollocks and realising that I don't have a proper family I've become so much more chilled out and at peace. I'm not happy for anyone, especially my negative and passive aggressive family to expect to have access to my babies whilst ignoring me.

Perspective would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I agree about the golden child/scapegoat dynamic.

However, I also think there's logic in what Sally suggests. Could they see the DV situation as a continuation of your association with people your mother found unacceptable earlier in your life? If she believed the worst of your friends' ethnic group whom she hated, might that have included ideas that 'they' all beat their wives and raped their daughters, etc? Could she now be telling herself that she told you so and be unable to understand how you could possibly have associated with anyone who might do such a thing? Even if your abusive former partner wasn't from that ethnic group, could she imagine that you deliberately sought out someone completely objectionable and put your children in danger just to spite her -- maybe she believes you sought out those friends long ago just to spite her too? There is also the possibility that she thinks her family is above that sort of carry on and that you have besmirched the good name with one divorce behind you as well as the abusive relationship. There's nothing rational about any of it.

People who believe they are the centre of the universe can sometimes have the warped idea that everyone's behaviour is somehow related to them or designed to get a reaction from them. They can't see others as fully fledged, three dimensional beings with minds and hearts of their own.

They will only accept a relationship on their terms, not yours (it has to be one or the other for them) -- certainly not on a normal basis where there is give and take. You may have burned your boats in many ways that a narcissist will never forgive by striking out on your own, paying your own way, achieving third level education, choosing your own friends. It is hard to avoid burning boats with a narcissist as the alternative is to live as your younger sibling does, very enmeshed, and in the end emasculated or hobbled, an extension of the mother's personality. Often you will find your boats burned for you if you happen to be the scapegoat.

I agree with TheCat that divide and conquer seems to be your mother's MO (this is clear from your sibling relationships) and that she should not have unsupervised access to the DCs, ever. I also agree with many posters that you should find a good therapist to go over the dynamics in your family and if you can find one who deals with children of narcissists, so much the better. Ask around and don't waste time with someone who wants to know your dreams of how things went when you were toilet training, etc.

'Characteristics of Narcissistic Mothers' article.

Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers forum.

'You may have burned your boats in many ways that a narcissist will never forgive by striking out on your own'

Which might explain why the OPs sister felt she had to be seen to be on the mums side?

I agree with both Thecat & Zigzag.
I was forced to go NC with my Mum & though it was scary at the time, it has helped my mental state.
I echo all mentions of counselling, it will make such a difference to have a time where you are listened to of nothing else.
Hang i'm there & don't blame yourself.

Zigzag, unfortunately yes. Always blame, judgement and no support. I moved a long way away, and it was the days before FB, etc. My friends became my family.

My mother is dead now, and I grieved for the relationship that we never had. But her death gave a terrible of freedom, and I rebuilt my relationship with some of my siblings. The one who became the scapegoat in my absence has only recently recovered and we love each other, but will never be close.

Sorry OP, I don't mean to hijack. I'd also suggest talking therapies. Also CBT. The difference I have seen CBT make, after years of medication and psychiatry sessions is amazing. I've seen my sibling go from just about coping to actually be happy.

Mathan you've written an incredibly perceptive post.

I don't need it to be admitted to know that my independence and ability to succeed without being handheld, is a huge thorn in the side of my mother (and siblings). I suspect they would much rather have me dependent and needy. When I was on income support and pregnant, I was treated horrendously. I remember walking heavily pregnant to their house (in which there were 2 cars) and back home late at night through a rough estate without being offered a lift. The reason I went was because I was expected to produce university assignments for my mother. I ended up writing the vast majority of these, often typing whilst they were all in bed. Mental.

Agent zigzag another perceptive poster!

Why does she want to see the grandkids? I can't fathom why she's think it acceptable to want access to them whilst dismissing me but I realise that I can't judge others by my own standards! A lot of behaviour is to make herself look good, there's been times she's clearly wanted to be their mother instead of allowing me to be; wanting too much say in how they're raised (which I allowed for a long time), even wanting to comfort them and not letting me get near them. I realised the danger of this and retreated with them a while back - I really could see her inviting my teenage children (they're not teenage yet) to hers after an argument with me and trying to explain how it's better they stay with her! I'm not having my children taken from me!

Facebook is full of posts about the other siblings and other grandchild (an ex of mine is her FB friend, she even messages him randomly - wtf) but I blocked them all a couple of years ago after I could see they were all leaving me out of things and it was really hurtful. So to the outside world (FB!) there's no mention of me and the kids as though we don't exist.

I do feel access to the kids isn't in their best interests, it's in hers.

My siblings are not very nice people. Very negative, very passive aggressive and quite odd tbh. Far too much undercover game playing and blatant disregard for me. They toe the party line as I've said before. I'm not willing to sell my soul in order to get back in with them. If rather be alone and like myself for who I am.

I am really disappointed in my mother. She's ruined sibling relationships. Often bitches about us to each other and there's no chance of me ever having a good relationship with any of them. Tbh if they weren't family I wouldn't consider even associating with them.

Why does she want to see the grandkids?
She wants to see them in order to poke you in the eye. In her mind, you are her adversary. She must either win or (unthinkably) lose in the battle with you. Taking your children, even for a few hours, and disregarding healthy boundaries with them is a victory for her because ultimately she manages to hurt you by doing so. Plus she gets in under the skin of the children and starts to train them to live in her orbit.

Narcissists cannot abide boundaries. They have no respect for the fact that there is a place where they end and others begin. A boundary whose existence they sense represents a challenge for them, and being narcissists, they must win any challenge that crops up in front of them because the alternative is to lose and for them, loss is unthinkable. Boundaries are to be trampled over, therefore. This is what is happening with the relentless campaign to see your children. You must resist this attack.

Your instinct to keep her away from them is very healthy and your prediction of what might happen when they are teenagers is accurate (and if you look back, did something like that happen in your own life?). She will take them from you if you allow her to. What you have seen happening among your siblings will happen with you and your children if she gets her claws into your little family.

Are you prepared for the grief that will accompany going NC?
There will be grief for what might have been, and a sense of emptiness when you make the decision. You will feel alone but not as you have felt alone before, and you will feel a strong sense of hurt and anger that you have been alone in the midst of what should be family. It will be a more positive loneliness, with the possibility of a fresh start and a life without the burden of family relationships on your back.

But you are going to have to start out anew without any sense of having things explained to you, or any sense of closure or acknowledgement by your mother or siblings of what they have done, where they have been wrong, how they have hurt you. Narcissists will never do people the honour of admitting fault or expressing remorse or giving an explanation. That is a very difficult ending to cope with - the feeling that you have let yourself out by the back door will be like walking home after midnight through the rough estate after you have given your all typing papers for your mother. You will feel invisible and unheard, and it will hurt that they don't care enough to go after you except to demand unconditional surrender on your part - they will not want to know how they have hurt you or how they can change and make things better because they value you. It will be very important for you to find a counsellor to talk you through the process of walking away and dealing with the occasions when it all comes back and haunts you.

mathanxiety thank you so much for you very detailed, helpful and insightful posts. Thanks to the rest of you who kindly offered opinions and advice - they have all been very useful.

I shall keep you all updated. My position ATM is simple: NC. I'll fill you in on any ensuing drama!

Can I just point out something you might have missed ?
Your mother tried to prevent you as a teenager from associating with a group who she did not share the same views as.
You are now trying to prevent your children from mixing with their Grandmother and the rest of your family because you do not share the same views.
You have more in common with your mother than you are aware of.
You both assume your children are your property, and that your family is only yours and no one elses.
You don't really have any justifiable reason to prevent your children from having a relationship with their Grandmother just because you don't get along with her.
Given the problems you and your children have been through, your children have even more of a right to have access to family relationships that are a source of stability and love.
The text messages are not about you, they are about your children.
you are being passive aggressive by ignoring them.
You need proper assertiveness counseling to address your low self esteem. ( as does your mother)

Judy, there is nothing to be gained and all to be lost from exposing her children to this toxic woman. She has no real interest in anyone here, neither Singlemedic nor the children. All she wants to do is dominate, eliminate boundaries, and win no matter what the cost is to the children. Just as she ruined her own children's relationships she will ruin Singlemedic's family, and she will destroy the relationship they have with Singlemedic too.

It is precisely because the text messages are about her children, and a lot of other reasons, that it is important the children do not have contact with this woman. She is not a responsible, kind grandmother. She has played games with her children and now is determined to start with the grandchildren.

It is absolutely not because Singlemedic 'doesn't get along' with this woman that she is preventing her children from having a relationship with her. It is because for her and for her children going NC means breaking an incredibly damaging chain.

Mathanxiety there is no such thing as a Toxic woman, its a glib phrase to justify a sense of grievance against another and to ignore any other contributing factor.
twenty years from now their are still going to be threads on Mn about
"mothers" and how terrible they were, those threads are going to be from our kids about us, wouldn't it be something if we started to learn and accept that being a mother does not mean you instantly know and do the absolutely right thing all the time.
We are all more like our mothers than we frequently acknowledge, especially in our reactions if not our deeds, at least by trying to understand that a mother is not entirely a perfect human being and is a capable of being as emotionally wounded as ourselves we can begin to realize our mothers are not alien creatures full of seething hate towards us, just insecure wounded needy self loathing aggrieved individuals just like any other ordinary human being, just like us.
A bit of self reflection never hurts in cases like this, especially where there has been damaged relationship after damaged relationship.
But the nice thing about posting on MN is the wide range of views and the chance to discover them. :)

My dh has similar with his dm (my mil). He comes from a toxic family and i myself & my dc decided to go non-contact over a year & 3 months ago due to their toxic behaviours & comments affecting my dc. Dh failed to call them up on it so i made the decision for myself, although it caused ultimate uproar & still does.

Dh hardly sees them now but used to, and he still recieves texts & phonecalls from them, mostly asking when they can see the children, or whether the children can come to get togethers such as bbqs, easter gatherings, or not even asking, just assuming the kids will be coming to x & y!!! They never ask how dh is or how his life is, it's always about how they can't see dc and guilt trips hidden in texts etc!

Dh is getting there, ie realising their games but isn't quite on my wavelength of realising their toxicity just yet.

They are a family who coherse eachother to brow beat dh, there is past abuse inwhich dh was hit with belts & fag burns put out on him & his mother enabled all this although to this day he won't hold them to account over it. Fil is a lose cannon, mil is verbally abusive & manipulative and sil1 is completely with them & infact has became involved on many occasion leading to me ultimately going non contact with her & her dc too.

What a load of nonsense Judy.

" What a load of nonsense judy" thats one way of looking at it :)

OP, you and yor kids have survived domestic abuse. But the fact is you have been suffering abuse all your life, from your mother.

The relationship is not going to change because there is only so much you can do without the other person changing too and you know that isn't going to happen.

She's displaying some pretty unpleasant behaviour towards your dc when she has been allowed to see them.

She has no rights to access and I think it's time just to say no more.

Sorry single that was slightly random. I think others on the thread have given excellent advice and if you feel NC is the way to go for you then that's best.

Perhaps getting a new phone but leaving your "old" phone active and shut away in a drawer somewhere would be a good idea?

Thanks again all.

Judy I appreciate you posting but you're incorrect in your assumption that this is a power thing. I don't see my children as my property - whatsoever. If I thought that I would never have tried to reinstate a grandma/grandchildren relationship irrespective of how much trouble it causes me.

You're correct in one thing - I do possess some character traits that my mum also possesses. That's cos I'm her daughter. But I don't want to possess the traits of negativity and game playing like her, hence why I'm trying to break this cycle.

You're very wrong about me not wanting contact because I don't agree with their views. I've turned a blind eye to her racism (towards my own children!) for years, thinking that contact was more important. No more though. I couldn't give a shit about their views, as long as they're not voiced. The NC is because I don't believe this relationship, as it stands, is healthy for my children or I. We have a right to feel loved and respected surely?

Also, as regards your insistence that I'm passive aggressive by ignoring her recent texts. I disagree. The alternative to ignoring them is to phone (and end up in an argument, or more likely having her put the phone down on me) or text reiterating my desire for a proper relationship as a family. It's all been ignored so far. I'm not prepared to be a broken record. I've tried to sort this. Ignoring her bollocks texts are the only way I can avoid both upsetting myself, and pissing her off. I think this is actually a pretty respectful way of dealing with a situation that refuses to change.

Judy I can't believe your post.
You are now trying to prevent your children from mixing with their Grandmother and the rest of your family because you do not share the same views.

Absolutely. The view they have of the OP will be reinforced to her DCs. Why on earth would she permit this?

You don't really have any justifiable reason to prevent your children from having a relationship with their Grandmother just because you don't get along with her. Given the problems you and your children have been through, your children have even more of a right to have access to family relationships that are a source of stability and love.

I think she has every reason to keep them away. I'm not entirely sure why you think the relationship would have any chance of being a 'source of stability and love' either. No evidence for that.

And btw, I don't particularly like the term 'toxic' either, but whatever that type of behaviour is called a parent has the right to decide who their child has contact with.

You are now trying to prevent your children from mixing with their Grandmother and the rest of your family because you do not share the same views

The essence of responsible parenting surely, if the difference of opinion is not trivial but about fundamental values?

NannyOgg, you write "The view they have of the OP will be reinforced to her DCs. Why on earth would she permit this?"
Because the view the op thinks her family have of her is not going to change in any way if she never faces up to it and stops it having so much power over her. the OP is an adult now not a child.
All the OP is doing is running away from her family's view of her, which will actually re enforce it, by allowing her mother to say she denied her the chance to be with the DCs, to be a grandmother, and then to milk it for the sympathy by adopting the role of the wronged grand parent, who would have been wonderful! but didn't get the chance, as her terrible daughter stole those DCs away.
What will happens when the DCs are teenagers eh?,
whats the ultimate weapon of rebellion if its not announcing
"I'm gonna find my Grandmother and live with her if you keep telling me I cannot...."
ironically not letting them get to know that Grandmother could be the worst thing for OP,
they never really get to see what a strange, difficult, damaged person grandma can be,
they never get to hear how bad she talks about their mother and realize how wrong she is,
they never got to decide for themselves,
they were just told,
its not hard to see how fascinating it could be to inquiring minds,
that family that all they ever heard about was they were so awful we had to run away, cut off all contact.
This whole issue is actually about the low self esteem of the OP ,
it won't change until OP realizes her mothers opinion of her has no power to define her, and is just the opinion of a woman with very low self esteem.
But I'm sure there are many posters on here who would say otherwise and encourage OP to run, run like the wind........and protect your babies from the monster.

Judy, I think you are dreaming up unlikely catastrophic scenarios here.

As for :they never really get to see what a strange, difficult, damaged person grandma can be,they never get to hear how bad she talks about their mother and realize how wrong she is I don't see how exposing young children to this is preferable to ending contact with the grandmother, I really don't.

EldritchCleavage Fundamental values are only fundamental values if they allow freedom.
A person cannot be said to hold fundamental values if they are imposed by exclusion from any other view point, that is indoctrination.